[irunat2am]

Hello-

I've taken 5 years of Spanish, and can speak/understand a very fair amount. However, you can never learn enough!

I'm going into law enforcement, and being bilingual is a HUGE help! I'm just wondering if somebody on here who is fluent in Spanish wouldn't mind if I asked them for help every now and then with a few phrases. (IM, e-mail, PM, whatever)

If you wouldn't mind throwing out a little help every now and then (probably won't be too often, to be honest) please let me know.

Thanks-
Mike

[Super Mario]

I don't like that language. It sounds like an Arab trying to speak Italian with his mouthful of cake and bread.

[irunat2am]

That's very interesting.

[angelmb]

Spaniard here.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Super Mario 

I don't like that language. It sounds like an Arab trying to speak Italian with his mouthful of cake and bread.

And the bastard child of languages (english) is any better?

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

And the bastard child of languages (english) is any better?

Yes that is why you are using it lol. Frankly English is not my first language but I will admit is the most economic and direct to the point language that expresses humor and irony the best. Also doesn't have those ach and urg guttural sounds I hate and has been the language responsible for the increasing disappearance of rhoticity. Rhotic and guttural sounds are so gross....they come from the days of cavemen going urgh agh rach!!!!!!!

What's up with Spanish people not being able to pronounce V? They say bideo instead of video (derives from Latin!!!!!) and hooba instead of hoover.

"I watch the film in my bideo and later hooba the carpet"

[Oisín]

[English] has been the language responsible for the increasing disappearance of rhoticity

Uh... how exactly do you figure that? There is no “increasing disappearance of rhoticity” cross-linguistically. If anything, the recent proliferation of English in the world, with its multitude of rhotic sounds, has been a contribution to the appearance, not disappearance, or increase of rhoticity in a few other languages (such as Swedish or the Gaelic languages).

The fact that rhoticity is disappearing or has already disappeared in many English dialects is of course (well, obviously) the English language’s doing—what else would it be? Other languages where rhoticity (taken in the larger sense here to mean the disappearance of post-vocalic r, regardless of pronunciation) has disappeared or is disappeared tend to carry out this process on their own, without ‘help’ from English (German, Danish, French [in some dialects], Brythonic, etc.).

What's up with Spanish people not being able to pronounce V? They say bideo instead of video (derives from Latin!!!!!) and hooba instead of hoover.

Yes, ’cause the Romans were so good at pronouncing v (hint: v in Latin was pronounced as a w, not a v). The development from labialised velar to bilabial isn’t really so strange at all; no stranger, surely no stranger than the (admittedly more common) change from labialised velar to labiodental. At least Spanish has kept it as an affricative, rather than turning it into a fricative. Other languages have had similar developments. Irish and Scottish Gaelic, for instance, had neither [v] nor [f] about 150 years ago, but only [β] and [ɸ], the bilabial equivalents. Here is one case, though, where English is clearly responsible for bringing about the change that led to both languages now having exclusively [v] and [f].

The fact that a sound doesn’t exist in a language is no reason to hold it against that language’s native speakers that they can’t easily produce said sound. Most English-speaking people are unable to produce the uvular r used in French, German, Danish, Dutch, etc.; or the nine tones of Cantonese, for that matter. That doesn’t really mean anything, other than that they have to study harder to learn it.

(Incidentally, I thought Spanish was your first language—did I remember incorrectly?)

[Super Mario]

Oh be quiet Einstein. You and your English language use above is too intellectual for me

[Oisín]

Oh, come on. As retorts go, that was distinctly disappointing.

I was almost hoping for a good bicker, and now you’ve gone and ruined it all!

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

I was almost hoping for a good bicker, and now you’ve gone and ruined it all!

Bicker on Saturday??!?!?!?! You didn't drink enough this weekend

[Rumor]

He is a linguist. This kind of conversation is his bread and butter.

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

He is a linguist.

That is a naff job title someone invented to get chicks.

[irunat2am]

Oisin, I have no idea what half of that response meant, but I 2nd that. Hehe.

[Super Mario]

Hey look at me!!!! Weehheeeeee it's Super Marioooo!!! I feel sorry Oisin put effort into that post and now am over my Saturday hangover so now it is time for to entertain my new friend Oisin the cunning linguist!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Uh... how exactly do you figure that?

There is a timescale map on the internets on Wikipedia I think of rhoticity diminishing over the last 200 years or so across Britain, Ireland and the United States.

The fact that rhoticity is disappearing or has already disappeared in many English dialects is of course (well, obviously) the English language’s doing—what else would it be? Other languages where rhoticity (taken in the larger sense here to mean the disappearance of post-vocalic r, regardless of pronunciation) has disappeared or is disappeared tend to carry out this process on their own, without ‘help’ from English (German, Danish, French [in some dialects], Brythonic, etc.).

The disappearance of rhoticity is due to economic forces (look at me weehee in Super Professor Mario mode!!!). Economic change in the South-east of England (that is spreading across the Isles) and on the West and East coast of the United States has caused a radical speeding up of lifestyles. More hobbies have also had the same effect. Because peoples living in those areas have less time to converse due to the hectic pace of their lives, their speech has also quickened so that rhotic accents, which require slower speech, have diminished. This effect is spreading like a bushfire, to non-English languages for instance, wherever economic prosperity occurs that has the same lifestyle effect. Take that to linguist class!!!!

Yes, ’cause the Romans were so good at pronouncing v (hint: v in Latin was pronounced as a w, not a v).

Mostly in the south and east of Italy due to contact with Phoenicians, Jews, etc who also used it as a w. The north of Italy used it as a V which replaced the W when the north grew powerful after the collapse of centralised authority in Rome.

The fact that a sound doesn’t exist in a language is no reason to hold it against that language’s native speakers that they can’t easily produce said sound.

Where would we be and what shape would our jokes and sense of humor be like if we couldn't make fun of accents, cultures and languages?

Most English-speaking people are unable to produce the uvular r used in French, German, Danish, Dutch, etc.;

Thank goodness!!!!!!

(Incidentally, I thought Spanish was your first language—did I remember incorrectly?)

Italian is the mother tongue. Mario and Luigi you know???? The Spanish stole my mother tongue and speak it badly.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Uh... how exactly do you figure that? There is no “increasing disappearance of rhoticity” cross-linguistically. If anything, the recent proliferation of English in the world, with its multitude of rhotic sounds, has been a contribution to the appearance, not disappearance, or increase of rhoticity in a few other languages (such as Swedish or the Gaelic languages).

The fact that rhoticity is disappearing or has already disappeared in many English dialects is of course (well, obviously) the English language’s doing—what else would it be? Other languages where rhoticity (taken in the larger sense here to mean the disappearance of post-vocalic r, regardless of pronunciation) has disappeared or is disappeared tend to carry out this process on their own, without ‘help’ from English (German, Danish, French [in some dialects], Brythonic, etc.).

I'm confused here. I had to look up "rhoticity" and what I've read, particularly here sounds just the opposite of what you've said in your last paragraph. From my experience, particularly in the States, pronunciation of
/r/ regardless of whether it has a vowel after it is increasing with the "flattening" of American accents. It's hard to find a good, solid Southern accent, for example, because the distinctiveness of the drawl has blurred into a somewhat laconic cadence rather than specific pronunciation pattern.

Am I misunderstanding Wiki, or you?

[Oisín]

Neither. Rhoticity isn’t really disappearing in the States (except for some dialects—think Boston), but in the British Isles, it is.

Hey look at me!!!! Weehheeeeee it's Super Marioooo!!! I feel sorry Oisin put effort into that post and now am over my Saturday hangover so now it is time for to entertain my new friend Oisin the cunning linguist!!!!!!!

Wee heee

The disappearance of rhoticity is due to economic forces (look at me weehee in Super Professor Mario mode!!!). Economic change in the South-east of England (that is spreading across the Isles) and on the West and East coast of the United States has caused a radical speeding up of lifestyles. More hobbies have also had the same effect. Because peoples living in those areas have less time to converse due to the hectic pace of their lives, their speech has also quickened so that rhotic accents, which require slower speech, have diminished. This effect is spreading like a bushfire, to non-English languages for instance, wherever economic prosperity occurs that has the same lifestyle effect. Take that to linguist class!!!!

Well, um... you’re right about part of it: the fact that the dialect spoken in the most economically (and/or politically) powerful area in a country is most likely to be the one to spread to other areas of the country does mean that if London’s the richest area in the British Isles, and London speech has lost rhoticity, then the rest of the country is quite likely to follow suit.

And rhotic accents/languages don’t require slower speech. Beijing speech is one of the fastest and blabbiest of the Chinese regionalects (apart from Shanghainese, which is super-humanly fast and sounds like Scatman John trying to speak Japanese), and it’s chock-full of rhotacisms everywhere possible and impossible (including a few unpossible places, too).

As for the other stuff—well... *contemplates small spot of what appears to be orange juice on wall and wonders how it got there*

There is a timescale map on the internets on Wikipedia I think of rhoticity diminishing over the last 200 years or so across Britain, Ireland and the United States.

Ah, so you were just talking about rhoticity disappearing within English, then? ’Cause then, obviously, English is responsible.

Mostly in the south and east of Italy due to contact with Phoenicians, Jews, etc who also used it as a w. The north of Italy used it as a V which replaced the W when the north grew powerful after the collapse of centralised authority in Rome.

No, actually, the original sound was w, not v. The original Latium dialect is believed to have w, as well, though it’s hard to really be sure before the language became Latin and other influences entered on to the scene, too. But going further back, it’s clear that w is the inherited sound from PIE, and v is a special development of the northern parts (I don’t know this, but I imagine it might be due to contact with pre-Slavic branches, since the same thing happened very early on in all Slavic languages, as well).

(I’m assuming the “Phoenicians and Jews, who also used it as w” part was an intentionally jocular wording?)

Where would we be and what shape would our jokes and sense of humor be like if we couldn't make fun of accents, cultures and languages?

In a morally and ethically much higher place.

(Where everything is dull as all hell, of course)

Italian is the mother tongue. Mario and Luigi you know????

How odd that I thought you were from South America. Strange.

The Spanish stole my mother tongue and speak it badly.

Oh no—you enforced your language [well, your ancestors enforced their language] on the Spanish, and as punishment and a way to get revenge, they decided to speak it badly, putting lots of Arab words and stuff into it wherever they could

(Incidentally, Portuguese > Italian, any time )

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

And rhotic accents/languages don’t require slower speech. Beijing speech is one of the fastest and blabbiest of the Chinese regionalects (apart from Shanghainese, which is super-humanly fast and sounds like Scatman John trying to speak Japanese), and it’s chock-full of rhotacisms everywhere possible and impossible (including a few unpossible places, too).

You mean Mandarin right? I don't find Mandarin to be very rhotic at all. It's very.....slushy?




No, actually, the original sound was w, not v. The original Latium dialect is believed to have w, as well, though it’s hard to really be sure before the language became Latin and other influences entered on to the scene, too. But going further back, it’s clear that w is the inherited sound from PIE

I don't believe in PIE. There's a much more complex relation between languages than the PIE theory which is an imaginary construct not rooted in real evidence. That debate doesn't belong here though. It's way too long.

Oh no—you enforced your language [well, your ancestors enforced their language] on the Spanish, and as punishment and a way to get revenge, they decided to speak it badly, putting lots of Arab words and stuff into it wherever they could

And they speak like they have a mouthful of oily tapas and bread!

I'm learning Thai here in Thailand for the summer. Strange language. Like body popping.....with your mouth.

[angelmb]

ok ok… jokiness spanish lesson:

if a spaniard yells at you 'damnit, burn the luck!!' what the hell is that folk trying to say ?

[Oisín]

You mean Mandarin right? I don't find Mandarin to be very rhotic at all. It's very.....slushy?

No, not Mandarin. Mandarin is a standardised language based on the Beijing dialect, but without many of the Beijing dialect’s more extreme characteristics, such as the extensive use of rhotacisms for, well, just about anything.

I don't believe in PIE. There's a much more complex relation between languages than the PIE theory which is an imaginary construct not rooted in real evidence. That debate doesn't belong here though. It's way too long.

I’d say it’s based on quite a lot of real evidence, actually, both linguistically, mythologically, and archaeologically. But if you don’t believe in the concept of PIE, which I assume means you don’t really believe in a direct relationship between the various IE branches either, then there’s really no way left to find out whether v or w was the original sound...

[Super Mario]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

I’d say it’s based on quite a lot of real evidence, actually, both linguistically, mythologically, and archaeologically. But if you don’t believe in the concept of PIE, which I assume means you don’t really believe in a direct relationship between the various IE branches either, then there’s really no way left to find out whether v or w was the original sound...

Linguistially, mythologically, and archaeologically if we go back 3000+ years back then you can see all three were shared between the cultures and languages of Egypt, Nubia, Arabia, Sumer, Akkad, Assyria, Elam and the Indus Valley. Loan words, loan gods, loan myths, trade, movement, etc. There are many root words spread across those languages yet there's 5 language groups among those people I listed. That's why I mentioned that language has far more complex development than PIE postulates. The problem with PIE constructists is that they have given it credit for root words and myths that didn't start in PIE or a PIE speaking culture but instead in those cultures above, unless you were to accept the Indus Valley or prehistorical Arabia as the origin location of PIE. But PIE has its origin in a racial purist theory (Aryanism) that it came from the Caucasus or some place around the Black Sea and that it spread and branched off in a nice and neat way that can be charted like branches of a tree. That doesn't have myth, history or archaeological evidence to back it up.

[Oisín]

There are many root words spread across those languages yet there's 5 language groups among those people I listed. That's why I mentioned that language has far more complex development than PIE postulates. The problem with PIE constructists is that they have given it credit for root words and myths that didn't start in PIE or a PIE speaking culture but instead in those cultures above

For myths, that may be so (or again, it may be the other way around for at least some of them, that they started in the PIE homeland and were borrowed into Arabia and the Indus Valley), but I don’t think anyone’s giving credit for roots that aren’t actually PIE. There are plenty of roots that are acknowledged as loan words into PIE from Arabic, Sumeric, Egyptian, etc. languages, and there are some that seem more likely to be loans the other way; and then there’s the great score of roots that seem almost too similar in different groups for it to be coincidence, but for which it’s not really possible to stipulate any plausible theory either way, so they’re left as open questions.

And besides, most Indo-Europeanists don’t claim to go much farther back than the late stage of a common-ish PIE with any certainty, and many find it not at all unthinkable that PIE could well be an early break-off of some language group in the northern parts of prehistoric Arabia, which could account for many similarities in roots.

But PIE has its origin in a racial purist theory (Aryanism)

That’s just plain wrong, even chronologically, since Aryanism is of a much later date than the PIE concept. It’s quite the other way around: Aryanism has its roots in the PIE theory.

And languages do have a tendency to spread, branch off, and intermingle with each other, and it can nearly always, to a certain point, be charted like branches of a tree—that’s true of any language group, not just PIE. I still don’t see what you really mean by “far more complex development than PIE postulates”. It’s not like the PIE theory claims that everything just developed simply and easily from one homogenous language into a plethora of languages with no external interference. A major part of IE studies is exactly trying to separate, at each known stage of a language, the interference from and intermingling with other languages from what can be seen as inherent in the language itself, and then to figure out where what’s inherent comes from. That’s plenty complex, I’d say. I don’t see what other way there would be, really, of trying to figure out these languages’ internal relationships.

[Super Mario]

We'll see what happens in time. I'm not so inclined to believe in any form of constructionist history. That's how myths and false histories were always formed.