[macintologist]

If you had a good friend who approached you and asked whether he/she should get a Mac or a PC, what would your friend have to say about his/her needs for you to NOT recommend a Mac at all because you know that getting a Mac would be to his/her detriment?

Off the top of my head, if my friend said he was a hardcore gamer, that would be one instance. What are some others? Architecture/CAD stuff? Business accounting stuff? Let me know.

[Sörnäinen]

Some people are totally used to Windows and consider themselves "experts". They like to "boost up" and "pimp" their systems, "improve" the hardware all the time, they like to "tune up" the system and so on...

... not the mac-kind of person. They will erase cache-files during the work and then wonder why a program crashs, and they will mess up the system using "sudo" with any tip they find in a newspaper.

And after that they will say that MacOs is worth nothing and the newest accelerator card is not fitting into the iMac.

[shinji]

People unwilling to try something new. Personally I enjoy learning a new OS, and I think OS X is intuitive enough that you can get the hang of it pretty quickly. But there are plenty of people who can't be bothered and don't even want to try.

[Doofy]

I wouldn't recommend a Mac for using as a paddle when canoeing.

And accounting (which would change if I could get a UK version of QuickBooks Pro). That's it really.

[analogika]

I said it over in another thread:

Some people are tinkerers. Some people won't consider a car "theirs" unless they've completely disassembled it, upgraded or replaced some parts, and re-assembled it at least once a year. This market is VERY small compared to the market that owns a car that takes them shopping. But it exists.

The same applies to computers.

[ort888]

People who fear change, or would be unable to cope with change.

People who want the cheapest computer possible and are already comfortable windows.

Hardcore gamers.

[lpkmckenna]

1. If someone needs a cheap, cheap computer.
2. If someone is unlikely to benefit from iLife.
3. If someone had a large amount of purchased software or hardware.

But

I always recommend Macs to laptop users. Always.
I always recommend Macs to people complaining about viruses, spyware, etc.
I always recommend Macs to musicians.

[iREZ]

i used to tell people how much better macs were...then they all started hitting me up for the stupidest reasons for help...i now keep my mouth shut and use my mac happily without people bugging me for help every minute.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by iREZ 

i used to tell people how much better macs were...then they all started hitting me up for the stupidest reasons for help...i now keep my mouth shut and use my mac happily without people bugging me for help every minute.

Yep. No one ever calls to say hi anymore, it's just "I have a simple question.."

[mduell]

I can think of two situations where I would tell someone not to buy a Mac:

Someone whose needs fit a system that Apple doesn't offer; usually a person whose needs are best met by the missing Mac between the mini and the Pro, but sometimes other needs.

A laptop user who is going to run Windows most of the time (due to software or hardware); Apple's warranty doesn't offer accidental damage coverage, which is huge for portable users IMO.

[Rumor]

Even with a Dell/Gateway/Toshiba etc, you have to pay quite a bit for the accidental damage policy, as the standard/extended warrenty doesn't cover it.

I pay $30 a year for $2800 of coverage, all peril, no deductible with a private insurance policy.

That said.

Hardcore gamers and upgrade-every-time-something-new-comes-out people.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Even with a Dell/Gateway/Toshiba etc, you have to pay quite a bit for the accidental damage policy, as the standard/extended warrenty doesn't cover it.

3 years of warranty/CompleteCare from Dell is cheaper than 3 years of AppleCare from Apple.

For a Dell D630:
3 year Limited Hardware Warranty with Mail-in Service [Included in Price]
3 yr Limited Hardware Warranty with Next Business Day On-Site Service [add $99] (something Apple doesn't even offer)
3 Year CompleteCare Accidental Damage Service [add $149]

Compared to $349 for AppleCare on a similar laptop.

Covering it under other insurance (homeowners/renters/etc) has it's ups and downs; yes, it's cheap to add on, but it would suck to have your premium raised/non-renewed because of too many claims from your computer (something that can't happen with a manufacturer warranty).

[OldManMac]

Thankfully, I don't do it often, but I run into those occasionally who have to run a specific Windows program that just isn't available for a Mac, such as Access. If that program is one of the primary reasons they need a new machine I'm honest with them and tell them to buy a Windows box.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Apple's warranty doesn't offer accidental damage coverage, which is huge for portable users IMO.

Actually, it isn't that big of an issue. CompUSA offers a damage policy and they rarely sell it. Most people will tell you that they are going to be very careful, and they generally are. Accidents do happen, but the laptops brought in for damage versus those brought in for normal service make up a very small percentage. One can over insure everything they own, and the only ones that benefit is the insurance industry.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Covering it under other insurance (homeowners/renters/etc) has it's ups and downs; yes, it's cheap to add on, but it would suck to have your premium raised/non-renewed because of too many claims from your computer (something that can't happen with a manufacturer warranty).

Sorry, I should have clarified. It is a Personal Articles Policy, which is separate from a Homeowners or Renters. A loss on a PAP has no bearing on a HO or Renters.

[besson3c]

- gamers
- somebody interested in using the machine as a server in a mission critical environment
- somebody who requires an app that isn't available for the Mac, or doesn't run very well (e.g. Flash is painfully slow)
- a programmer that wants to program in a Windows-only language
- somebody who prefers a more lightweight window manager without the bells and whistles
- somebody without modern hardware
- somebody who doesn't want to have to buy all new software (or possibly software in general)
- hardware tinkerers
- some people who want to use their Macs in a business outside of content creation
- people who work in a multi-server Exchange environment (unless these problems have been fixed)
- people who want cheap hardware

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

- somebody who prefers a more lightweight window manager without the bells and whistles

That sounds almost Linux fanboyisms than reasons..

- somebody without modern hardware

I am running 10.4 on my G4. I wouldn't call G4 modern. But that is irrelevant If he or she is buying a new computer.

- hardware tinkerers

We have a forum for that

- some people who want to use their Macs in a business outside of content creation

Which people do daily.

- people who want cheap hardware

The Mac mini is pretty darn cheap.

I would also say that someone that wanted a Mac

• Doesn't want to deal with spyware/adware and virus nonsense.
• Would like a CLI to use, but not always HAVE to use it
• Wanted major application support, but don't want to use Windows.
• Doesn't want to compile everything he or she downloads..
• Wants things to just "work" out of the box without having to mess with anything.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

If you had a good friend who approached you and asked whether he/she should get a Mac or a PC, what would your friend have to say about his/her needs for you to NOT recommend a Mac at all because you know that getting a Mac would be to his/her detriment?

If they wanted a cheap comp. Apple's cheapest line isn't upgradeable so if one component becomes obsolete the solution is to buy a whole new computer where is an equivalently priced PC is easy to just upgrade the one part you need most, and other parts a later time when you need too. PC parts only take about 2 mins to swap in and out unlike the imac. Thats assuming they did the research to make sure their imac won't over heat with the new part (a drive?).

Also if the person wasn't inclined to learn about the mac on their own. I don't want the person to blame me because none of their 'geeky' friends know how to find freeware for their mac and the actual owner is too lazy to just do some searching. It's happened before.

I use a PC primarily now. I do it because I have access to the latest software first; the software is perfected first for windows. I still hate windows though.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I am running 10.4 on my G4. I wouldn't call G4 modern. But that is irrelevant If he or she is buying a new computer.

I think he's referring to accessories, like printers and scanners. If they're more than a couple years old, OS X support is quite poor; my parents had to buy a new printer (from one that was ~3 years old) and extra software to make their scanner (~5 years old) work when they switched to an iMac.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

The Mac mini is pretty darn cheap.

And quite underspecced with similarly prices PCs.
1.8Ghz dual/1GB/80GB/GMA950 ($599 mini) vs 2.4Ghz quad/2GB/160GB/nVidia 8400 ($629 Dell). I estimate you could buy a $250 used system to get down to the performance level of a mini.

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

If they wanted a cheap comp. Apple's cheapest line isn't upgradeable so if one component becomes obsolete the solution is to buy a whole new computer where is an equivalently priced PC is easy to just upgrade the one part you need most, and other parts a later time when you need too.

The iMac and Mac mini have upgradeable CPUs, RAM, hard drives, and optical drives. The only thing you can't upgrade is the graphics.

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

If you had a good friend who approached you and asked whether he/she should get a Mac or a PC, what would your friend have to say about his/her needs for you to NOT recommend a Mac at all because you know that getting a Mac would be to his/her detriment?

There's one phrase that would instantly make me recommend the PC: "I want to run Linux." Whilst I know that you can do it on a Mac, it just seems wrong. Besides, they'd likely be a tinkerer, and the inability to fire in whatever hardware they wanted would likely grate. Apart from that, I'd recommend a Mac to almost anyone, with the exception of the example below.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

And accounting (which would change if I could get a UK version of QuickBooks Pro). That's it really.

My dad is in the accountants boat. After using my iMac, he announced that he was going to switch. When he realised Quickbooks wasn't available for the Mac, he decided he couldn't do it, as he needs it for his work. It's a shame, really, because he really did like OSX, and he hates having to do his spyware/virus scan/malware routine every few weeks. On top of that, he really hates that his PC slows down after about a year for no apparent reason, and continues to slow after that. It's one of the unadvertised "features" of Windows that I've always hated.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Koralatov 

My dad is in the accountants boat. After using my iMac, he announced that he was going to switch. When he realised Quickbooks wasn't available for the Mac, he decided he couldn't do it, as he needs it for his work. It's a shame, really, because he really did like OSX, and he hates having to do his spyware/virus scan/malware routine every few weeks. On top of that, he really hates that his PC slows down after about a year for no apparent reason, and continues to slow after that. It's one of the unadvertised "features" of Windows that I've always hated.

This wouldn't work? QuickBooks: Pro 2006 for Mac

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by mduell 

The iMac and Mac mini have upgradeable CPUs, RAM, hard drives, and optical drives. The only thing you can't upgrade is the graphics.

From what I read in the forums when I wanted to swap drives, people were always cautious of heat issues. And that was just upgrading 1 drive. I would never try upgrading the HD and the burner, unless I could prove they were colder. I also read it was difficult to get the slot loader to work. The point is a standard case is many times easier to upgrade.

I have a dell and iMac from 2001 ( same price). The imac has been upgraded from 10.1-10.2-10.3-10.4 all because I HAD too in order to run some program or hardware; not because I cared about widgets or whatever. ie the pro mouse requires an upgrade to 10.4 which I found out after buying the mouse(never have to worry about this with PC hardware). I spent hours researching how to take apart the case and put in a new drive. My imac is now obsolete but my dell isn't. It runs 1080p video(not that I care), runs all new software, all new hardware, it's never been reformatted.

I tried buying a new G5 imac but it never worked and warranties are good for nothing. Every time I would call they'd want me to reinstall the OS, I say "we did that the last 4 times I called and waited for an hour heres my case......" "we don't have that case # on record for some reason" After recalling my many experiences with apple I decided that my new machine would be a Sony.

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

This wouldn't work? QuickBooks: Pro 2006 for Mac

That's the US version; I'm in the UK, so I'm not sure it'd be any use over here, due to our use of VAT, and such. Thanks for the information, though: I wasn't even aware there was a Mac version; I never bothered to check after my dad said it wasn't available.

On a sour note, Quickbooks Pro is $199 in the States, and £299 (~$600) in the UK. I know that here in Britain we naturally get slightly ripped off for everything as a matter of course, but charging 300% of the US price is just ridiculous. Where did the extra £199 come from?!

[Atheist]

I generally encourage my friends and family to purchase Apple products but the cost always seems to be a stumbling block. Since Apple truly doesn't have an entry level computer (which seems to be the only type my family is ever interested in), they usually end up with a Dell. Right now you can get a fairly well spec'd Dell Vostro for $400 and that's WITH a 19" widescreen monitor. You can't even buy a new phone from Apple for $400.

I realize you can argue the cost of ownership of a PC and the virus thing and all that but as the resident tech in my family, I've only once had to rescue a family member from a virus ridden PC. Anti-virus/Anti-spyware software works.

Ultimately I'd rather they bought Macs, but the only way that's gonna happen is if I buy it for them.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

From what I read in the forums when I wanted to swap drives, people were always cautious of heat issues. And that was just upgrading 1 drive.

I've read of people worrying about this.

I have not once encountered anybody where it actually *was* a problem.

I don't believe that faster-RPM drives necessarily run much warmer.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by mduell 

And quite underspecced with similarly prices PCs.
1.8Ghz dual/1GB/80GB/GMA950 ($599 mini) vs 2.4Ghz quad/2GB/160GB/nVidia 8400 ($629 Dell). I estimate you could buy a $250 used system to get down to the performance level of a mini.

I dare you to find one at the mini's SIZE that isn't actually more expensive, to spec.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Koralatov 

That's the US version; I'm in the UK, so I'm not sure it'd be any use over here, due to our use of VAT, and such. Thanks for the information, though: I wasn't even aware there was a Mac version; I never bothered to check after my dad said it wasn't available.

I half-inched* a copy of the US version and tried it for a while. It's no use at all.

The only thing anywhere near suitable is MYOB, but even that's painfully lacking if you've been running QuickBooks Windows for a while.

(* try before buy)

I'd damn near kill for QuickBooks UK for Mac and something approaching the simplicity of Money 95 (Windows) for Mac. Money 95 is the only reason I keep a Windows box around still (latest versions of personal accounting software are *way* too tied into the Internet for my liking).

[TheoCryst]

• Hardcore gamers
• People who want/need a computer that is cheaper than the low-end Mac Mini.
• Tinkerers (hardware or OS (read:Linux))

And that's about it. I always recommend the MacBook for someone who is laptop shopping, though.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by analogika 

I dare you to find one at the mini's SIZE that isn't actually more expensive, to spec.

The grandparent post said nothing about size, only "people who want cheap hardware."

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Hardcore gamers and upgrade-every-time-something-new-comes-out people.

Also, people who have no clue and never want to crack a book to find out. Unless they live right next door to an Apple store, they will expect ME to be their tech support guy. For those folks, I tell them to buy the machine-of-the-week at Best Box. That machine comes with a hotline for tech support, and they never have to ask me whether some new whizbang geneology software will run on their machine, or bug me about "when is the Mac version coming out."

The "New Macs" (OS X) are like old Jaguars -- when they run they are great, but there's lots of stuff to break. Newbies have no place running a new Mac unless they know to call someone ELSE for tech support.

Besides, some folks just like to b*tch about how cranky their computers are. Windows is for them.

[BadKosh]

Unless they wanted to do graphics and Video editing, and didn't want to deal with adware, virus defs every 10 minutes, and spyware, I 'd say get a PC. WithOUT Vista.

[turtle777]

The questions is NOT over hardware anymore, but over operating software.

The other question is if it makes sense to buy a Mac if you were only planning to run Windows on it.

-t

[Drew]

I wouldn't recommend a mac to somebody that can't afford it. They are a luxury that are sought after for, but some people just can't cough up enough cash for them.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Drew 

I wouldn't recommend a mac to somebody that can't afford it. They are a luxury that are sought after for, but some people just can't cough up enough cash for them.

You can always get a used one.

[adamfishercox]

If you need a cheap computer for internet, word processing, email, and some games, you need a Windows computer.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

If you need a cheap computer for internet, word processing, email, and some games, you need a Windows computer.

Intel Mac's are Windows computers, too.

-t

[besson3c]

As much as I like Apple, they really aren't focusing on Joe Sixpack. Macs are a boutique/niche product, although that doesn't mean that it would be unwise to recommend them to certain people.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Intel Mac's are Windows computers, too.

-t

Intel Mac is what?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

As much as I like Apple, they really aren't focusing on Joe Sixpack. Macs are a boutique/niche product, although that doesn't mean that it would be unwise to recommend them to certain people.

I disagree, unless you equate Joe Sixpack with people that can't afford anything but el cheapo Dell.

For people that I consider Joe Sixpack, people that have very lmited computer knowledge, a Mac is certainly the better and wiser choice.
Heck, how often do we all (even as Mac guys) have to fix Windows computers for family and friends ?

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Intel Mac is what?

Yes, exactly. Thanks for reiterating my point.

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I disagree, unless you equate Joe Sixpack with people that can't afford anything but el cheapo Dell.

For people that I consider Joe Sixpack, people that have very lmited computer knowledge, a Mac is certainly the better and wiser choice.
Heck, how often do we all (even as Mac guys) have to fix Windows computers for family and friends ?

-t

Your argument only holds true if Joe Sixpack has no prior computing experience whatsoever, and will never be forced to use Windows machines in a workplace or elsewhere where he would have to deal with adjusting to a document centric workflow.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Yes, exactly. Thanks for reiterating my point.

-t

No problem buddy, pleased to help my friend!

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Your argument only holds true if Joe Sixpack has no prior computing experience whatsoever, and will never be forced to use Windows machines in a workplace or elsewhere where he would have to deal with adjusting to a document centric workflow.

Even if you have a "document centric workflow" at work, how does that

a) make it harder for you to use Word, email and internet at home on a Mac ?
b) make you an expert at fixing esoteric Windows software issues ?

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Even if you have a "document centric workflow" at work, how does that

a) make it harder for you to use Word, email and internet at home on a Mac ?

You've never run into a user that wasn't confused that closing a window isn't the same as quitting an app on the Mac? That the right click is relied upon less on the Mac? That there is no Start menu on the Mac? That ran into problems with some dumb app that wasn't available for the Mac, some incompatible file format, *something* that required them to know the difference between their Windows machine(s) and their Mac?

If there wasn't a difference, why would we use or recommend a Mac in the first place? There is a difference, and these differences aren't always desirable to Joe Sixpack.

b) make you an expert at fixing esoteric Windows software issues ?

While I'd agree that problems occur less frequently on the Mac, they certain do occur, and have different troubleshooting approaches. More fuel to my fire.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You've never run into a user that wasn't confused that closing a window isn't the same as quitting an app on the Mac? That the right click is relied upon less on the Mac? That there is no Start menu on the Mac? That ran into problems with some dumb app that wasn't available for the Mac, some incompatible file format, *something* that required them to know the difference between their Windows machine(s) and their Mac?

Sure, but those are even worse if they own a Windows PC, because you'll hve to be their admin ALL the time. If they were just ignorant and left you alone, great. But that's rarely the case.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

While I'd agree that problems occur less frequently on the Mac, they certain do occur, and have different troubleshooting approaches. More fuel to my fire.

I don't understand your line of reasoning here.

-t

[awaspaas]

There are many, many people that refuse to spend a dime over $400 for their computer, WITH monitor. The Big Box Special eMachines or whatever is all they will every buy no matter our recommendations.

[besson3c]

My line of reasoning is simple... To many people, the computer they use is inconsequential as long as it does the job for them.

These sorts of users in particular resent any kind of change, and they don't want to make adjustments to how they compute. They don't don't upgrade their OS, rarely download new software, are happy to use IE 6, and oddly enough don't even think to ask about how to prevent themselves from getting spyware or viruses, they are happy to just have the computer guy patch up their computer as if they are destined for tune-ups every once in a while like cars are.

For those that use Windows at work, there is even more pull to stick with a Windows computer. They are used to it, and know that (or think they know that) they will run into little trouble if their home setup is as close to their work setup as possible.

Your arguments address what might be good for these sorts of users if they were more inquisitive and less resentful of change, but I think you underestimate the size of this population.

[turtle777]

I agree that those kind of users can not be won over.

As long as they leave me alone with their computer issues, fine.
I'm just tired of fixing stuff that shouldn't be broke in the first place, and wouldn't be if they used a Mac

-t

[awaspaas]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

My line of reasoning is simple... To many people, the computer they use is inconsequential as long as it does the job for them.

These sorts of users in particular resent any kind of change, and they don't want to make adjustments to how they compute. They don't don't upgrade their OS, rarely download new software, are happy to use IE 6, and oddly enough don't even think to ask about how to prevent themselves from getting spyware or viruses, they are happy to just have the computer guy patch up their computer as if they are destined for tune-ups every once in a while like cars are.

For those that use Windows at work, there is even more pull to stick with a Windows computer. They are used to it, and know that (or think they know that) they will run into little trouble if their home setup is as close to their work setup as possible.

Your arguments address what might be good for these sorts of users if they were more inquisitive and less resentful of change, but I think you underestimate the size of this population.

I might argue that 99.5% of the age 50+ population falls into that category. Well said.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

I agree that those kind of users can not be won over.

As long as they leave me alone with their computer issues, fine.
I'm just tired of fixing stuff that shouldn't be broke in the first place, and wouldn't be if they used a Mac

-t

I hear you there! It's a good thing nobody in my family runs Windows anymore, at least those I would be in charge of supporting.

It's too bad that Apple is positioning the Mac as a niche product. I hope this changes someday. I've been tired of Microsoft for a long time. However, honestly, many times I wonder if Apple would be any better as our corporate overlords.