[besson3c]

How do you deal with them? This is not in reference to this board or any thread here, but in life in general...

How do you deal with people that don't by into the idea that subjects such as politics, religion, and sex are off limits among mixed company, and just launch into a diatribe about a political party, a religious group, personal belief system (e.g. vegetarianism) or even a race or gender?

This makes some people extremely uncomfortable, and not only that, but it is very hard to have a productive conversation with somebody that is more interested in talking at you (which is often the case with people that just sort of dive head first into these sorts of conversations). What strategies work well for you in dealing with these people?

If you cannot think of any extreme cases where people just sort of bludgeon others with their opinions about politics, religion, or sex, how about something a little bit tamer such as people that dive into a Mac message board and start ranting about the Mac (or people that do the same on a Windows or Linux board), or people that do the same with cars, electronics, even sports teams?

Please do share your personal examples and strategies that have worked well for you in the past - particularly examples where you actually connect with people and perhaps help prevent this sort of discomfort from happening again.

[BadKosh]

Are you trying to accept PC? I don't! Those who get their shorts in a knot are the ones who need to grow up.


Stick n Stones n all...

[Jawbone54]

What exactly are you suggesting? That people not talk about some of the most important topics that affect their lives?

[besson3c]

No, people with no restraint are the ones that need to grow up BadKosh.

Since you are a Bush loving conservative, I'm assuming you go to church like a good little brainwashed Christian every Sunday (note, this was intentionally inflamatory to prove a point). Is it appropriate to start discussing orgies and gang bangs with other church members? Is it your right? Probably, but it would cause great discomfort, right? So, why not have the maturity to keep your comments to yourself?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

What exactly are you suggesting? That people not talk about some of the most important topics that affect their lives?

I'm suggesting that some people have absolutely no diplomatic skills or any skill in broaching sensitive, controversial subject matter in a delicate way. It is extremely inconsiderate to not have any regard for the comfort level of others around you, and even more inconsiderate to be blissfully unaware of this.

[ghporter]

I agree that bluntness is something that is a powerful tool-but only should be used in the correct context. If one is skilled at all in speaking with other people, one should be able to manage one's words so that one does not cause unnecessary discomfort or hurt feelings. That makes the bluntness all the more powerful. But ANYONE can be an inconsiderate jerk by simply stating the facts in their simplest guise. It does take someone special to dress up mild and comfortable facts in hideous clothes just to shock and hurt. Such special people deserve what they get in the end-which I hope is more than I can imagine. Hurting people for fun is evil.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It is extremely inconsiderate to not have any regard for the comfort level of others around you, and even more inconsiderate to be blissfully unaware of this.

Perhaps this is a good time to bring up your in-bad-taste, continual, childish antic of mentioning fecal matter.

[ghporter]

...And just leave it there. Sometimes it's important to let stuff just be. But it is indeed important to note that stuff that's "funny" to some people is revolting to others. I can, for example, just tune out poo jokes-but then, after some of the things I've had to do professionally, poo is just another contaminant... Remind me sometime to tell you about how Dr. C and I had to deal with a colon... Or better yet, just remember that I mentioned it.

[Railroader]

But that's just it ghporter, Besson3c is complaining that some people have no regard for the comfort level of those around him when he is often the worst offender on here.

[Atheist]

I say you just ignore the person or walk away. It's my experience that the vast majority of humans are lazy when it comes to creative thought. It's rare to get into a conversation with someone that is truly interested in looking at things from an alternate perspective.... and actually debating with the intent of walking away a better informed human being.

[besson3c]

Atheist: yeah, that's why I (and probably most) end up doing, but it's a pity that these people have these sorts of power over conversations, ya know what I mean?

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How do you deal with them? This is not in reference to this board or any thread here, but in life in general...

How do you deal with people that don't by into the idea that subjects such as politics, religion, and sex are off limits among mixed company, and just launch into a diatribe about a political party, a religious group, personal belief system (e.g. vegetarianism) or even a race or gender?

This makes some people extremely uncomfortable, and not only that, but it is very hard to have a productive conversation with somebody that is more interested in talking at you (which is often the case with people that just sort of dive head first into these sorts of conversations). What strategies work well for you in dealing with these people?

If you cannot think of any extreme cases where people just sort of bludgeon others with their opinions about politics, religion, or sex, how about something a little bit tamer such as people that dive into a Mac message board and start ranting about the Mac (or people that do the same on a Windows or Linux board), or people that do the same with cars, electronics, even sports teams?

Please do share your personal examples and strategies that have worked well for you in the past - particularly examples where you actually connect with people and perhaps help prevent this sort of discomfort from happening again.

See, the thing is, those topics *aren't* off limits. Why should they be? People that think they are off limits are the problem.

I'll say what I want about any one of those matters. Nothing is off-limits as long as it's in good taste. To use the example of fecal matter, that's almost *never* in good taste. Religion? Politics? While far less pleasant than fecal matter, there's nothing wrong with discussing them.

The best way to avoid conversations like that if you don't want to partake, is to not be a tool in the first place; then there'll be no need for them.

[besson3c]

Cipher: don't understand your last point. Reread my first sentence in my first post, perhaps that was missed?

Secondly, obviously sex and religion are not exclusively off limits, but if your opinions about these issues are such that they would naturally be expressed as potentially offensive diatribes, yes, any sensible person would know to stay away from these subjects in mixed company. Not everybody wants to have intense, confrontational conversations all the time - you have to pick your time and place, as well as your audience.

Thirdly, regarding fecal matter, fecal matter is not offensive the same way that insulting somebody's religion is. Last I checked, there have been no wars waged over turds. Discussion relating to fecal matter may be gross, but then again the rules and basic environment of a forum such as this as much different than they are in real life. For instance, in a forum you will have any number of people that wish to be confrontational in a way that they wouldn't be with complete strangers in real life. In a forum, you can have people being particular about conversational rules and such in this lounge. In real life, lounges don't have conversational rules, etc.

I didn't create this thread with the intention of defending my sense of humor in the fecal humor category, but to discuss real life interactions. Obviously in real life I do not go up to complete strangers and randomly start talking about fecal matter unless the setting is informal enough. Even if I did, my reactions would surely be staring at me like I'm incredibly strange and probably not some sort of fecal related confrontation. We would be in deep **** if that happened!

[abe]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How do you deal with them? This is not in reference to this board or any thread here, but in life in general...

How do you deal with people that don't by into the idea that subjects such as politics, religion, and sex are off limits among mixed company, and just launch into a diatribe about a political party, a religious group, personal belief system (e.g. vegetarianism) or even a race or gender?

This makes some people extremely uncomfortable, and not only that, but it is very hard to have a productive conversation with somebody that is more interested in talking at you (which is often the case with people that just sort of dive head first into these sorts of conversations). What strategies work well for you in dealing with these people?

If you cannot think of any extreme cases where people just sort of bludgeon others with their opinions about politics, religion, or sex, how about something a little bit tamer such as people that dive into a Mac message board and start ranting about the Mac (or people that do the same on a Windows or Linux board), or people that do the same with cars, electronics, even sports teams?

Please do share your personal examples and strategies that have worked well for you in the past - particularly examples where you actually connect with people and perhaps help prevent this sort of discomfort from happening again.

You have to know how to accept rejection and reject acceptance.

Ray Bradbury


One of the secrets of life is to be honestly who you are. Who others want you to be, who you used to be, and who you may some day become ... these are fantasies. To be honestly who you are is to give up your illusions and face today with courage.

Bill Purdin


If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.

Henry David Thoreau


Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter
and those who matter don't mind.

Dr. Seuss

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

I say you just ignore the person or walk away. It's my experience that the vast majority of humans are lazy when it comes to creative thought. It's rare to get into a conversation with someone that is truly interested in looking at things from an alternate perspective.... and actually debating with the intent of walking away a better informed human being.

Eh, I'm kind of OK with that. Even idiots often have interesting things for me to learn. I don't know what that says about me.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

How do you deal with people that don't by into the idea that subjects such as politics, religion, and sex are off limits among mixed company, and just launch into a diatribe about a political party, a religious group, personal belief system (e.g. vegetarianism) or even a race or gender?

I dunno, maybe its the circles I run in but generally speaking people don't use inflammatory statements. They are generally raise topics in a respectful manner.

As for the idea some topics are "off limits" in mixed company is laughable. Sounds more like the PC police trying to clamp down on unapproved topics. If a subject matter the I feel uncomfortable about is raised. I'll walk away or not join the conversation.

Just because you assume or want those topics off-limits doesn't mean they truly are.

[Jawbone54]

Let's be honest; this isn't about topics that are off-limits, but people talking about things from a perspective that besson doesn't agree with.

In other words, all the right-wingers here on the MacNN boards need to just shut up and keep our opinions to ourselves because people that have an opposing viewpoint don't want to have their time wasted by having to listen to our crap.

I don't let too much get under my skin, but this thread grates me for some reason.

[besson3c]

Jawbone: you are welcome to get all worked up over something I have not said, have at it. Just don't expect me to help fuel this on your behalf...

[hart]

Originally Posted by abe 

You have to know how to accept rejection and reject acceptance.

Ray Bradbury


One of the secrets of life is to be honestly who you are. Who others want you to be, who you used to be, and who you may some day become ... these are fantasies. To be honestly who you are is to give up your illusions and face today with courage.

Bill Purdin


If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.

Henry David Thoreau


Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter
and those who matter don't mind.

Dr. Seuss

words to live by.

After 12 years with kids I've developed a standard response that drives them crazy:

"Mommy!!!! Sam called me a poopy face!" or "Mommy!!! Sam is a poopy face!!!!" and I say

"Thank you for telling me."

and then I move on. It's self defense. I'm one of those people who tends to take responsibility for other people's emotional mess so I have disciplined myself to adopt a zen-like detachment. There is no profit in getting all up in arms about someone else and their thing unless they're actually doing something that is immoral, illegal, hurtful, etc. Getting in your face with words doesn't count. Just move your face to another spot.

The powerful thing about "thank you for telling me" is that on the surface it is totally polite and respectful but underneath is the whole potential for "I don't give a ####." but it's really hard to call you on it.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

But that's just it ghporter, Besson3c is complaining that some people have no regard for the comfort level of those around him when he is often the worst offender on here.

We all make mistakes. Sometimes when we do, we are the last person to notice. I know It has happened to before. But yeah. This thread is kinda strange coming from besson. Maybe he has had an epiphany.

And no this wasn't an attack on you besson. I agree. People shouldn't be PURPOSELY mean to people just because they think they can. Having said that, we have ALL done it. Not one person in here can honestly say they have never made inflammatory statements.

So while yes besson has a history of making them, him pointing out that maybe we shouldn't be is still a good point. And I hope he carries on with this type of thinking.

I do things all the time I know I shouldn't do, and I am sure we all do.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

I dunno, maybe its the circles I run in but generally speaking people don't use inflammatory statements. They are generally raise topics in a respectful manner.

As for the idea some topics are "off limits" in mixed company is laughable. Sounds more like the PC police trying to clamp down on unapproved topics. If a subject matter the I feel uncomfortable about is raised. I'll walk away or not join the conversation.

Just because you assume or want those topics off-limits doesn't mean they truly are.

It's not that these topics are off limits, but like I tried to clarify in one of my more recent posts in this thread, if you feel strongly and passionate about an issue such that your opinions would naturally be expressed as an intense, potentially offensive diatribe, yes, this topic should be off limits to prevent a lot of social discomfort.

For example, if somebody is pretty clearly racist towards blacks or has some very strong opinions about issues of race that are prone to ruffling feathers, if you wish to maintain a civil atmosphere and have to be around this guy (or girl) as well as some blacks who are complete strangers, it is best to simply steer away from this topic.

This isn't P.C., this is just common sense. Like I said, not everybody wants an intense debate about everything. Would you show up to your friend's wedding reception and initiate conversations that you know will not end up well?

I'm honestly having a hard time understanding why I'm having such difficulty making my point here and what exactly is debatable about it. I certainly don't buy into the "I'll say whatever I want, whenever I feel like it, man!" attitudes I'm sensing here. We all pick our times and our places, this is simply a social skill.

It is easy to jump online and go around looking for an argument, as many people (including myself) often do here, but this does not happen in the same way in real life. Do you bring up this subject matter and express strong opinions on the subway without any attempt at delicacy with absolutely no consideration of your audience? Of course not... Not only would that make for awkward conversation, but it would take balls to do. All I'm saying is that there are people that seem to lack sound judgment (in less extreme cases than my examples) as to how to approach certain subjects, and some that seem intent on steamrollering over all others in the room with their opinions.

This has nothing to do with anybody here, this forum, any particular opinions expressed here, me trying to make a statement that pertains to this forum. This is about real life behavior, perhaps sociology, life in general, etc. For the record, for those that insist on trying to make this thread all about me and my history here, as I've said many times I realize that I say controversial things on this board - things which some might consider inflammatory. I think it is important to understand that this is a different medium. It is clear that some people don't like Leopard, for instance. It would be extremely dull if this forum was all about a bunch of Apple cheerleaders praising Apple to no end for providing us with Leopard. It is usually a little easier to be blunt about certain issues in a forum like this, requires less words, keeps conversation flowing, etc. The problems come from when people don't substantiate their blunt comments, or these blunt comments turn into emotional diatribes lacking a rational argument. That's all I wish to say about me and/or this forum within this thread, so don't bother carrying on a debate with me about this. Not interested, probably not worth your effort.

I hope that this has cleared things up...

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It's not that these topics are off limits, but like I tried to clarify in one of my more recent posts in this thread, if you feel strongly and passionate about an issue such that your opinions would naturally be expressed as an intense, potentially offensive diatribe, yes, this topic should be off limits to prevent a lot of social discomfort.

That's your first mistake. People can feel very strongly about a subject and not express it offensively. Take my Christianity. I feel very strong about that, yet I have not posted here or say verbally anything close to an offensive diatribe.

I'm honestly having a hard time understanding why I'm having such difficulty making my point here and what exactly is debatable about it

Because your original post had:

subjects such as politics, religion, and sex are off limits among mixed company

[OreoCookie]

Try to separate between work-related and personal discussions. If there are people who you don't like to discuss stuff that isn't related to work with, stick to work stuff. Keep it factual.

Obviously, racism and harassment are separate issues.

[Jawbone54]

I don't believe I've said anything about my religious beliefs that could be considered offensive or inflammatory (at least not in a long time). Maybe I'm wrong on that.

People are going to talk about what's important to them, and issues such as religion, politics, ethics, etc. are going to be brought up. It's the people that voice their opinions by being sarcastic and/or condescending that ruin the topics for everyone. The subject matter isn't the problem; it's the way that most people address it (and, as Kevin said, we've all done it).

To suggest that we don't discuss any of those things at all is unrealistic, and to be quite honest, would probably make for very boring discussions around here.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

I don't believe I've said anything about my religious beliefs that could be considered offensive or inflammatory (at least not in a long time). Maybe I'm wrong on that.

People are going to talk about what's important to them, and issues such as religion, politics, ethics, etc. are going to be brought up. It's the people that voice their opinions by being sarcastic and/or condescending that ruin the topics for everyone. The subject matter isn't the problem; it's the way that most people address it (and, as Kevin said, we've all done it).

To suggest that we don't discuss any of those things at all is unrealistic, and to be quite honest, would probably make for very boring discussions around here.

Like I said, my original thread starting message was about real life relationships, not about this forum. I'm not proposing that we avoid these topics on this forum, that would be like proposing that members avoid using the letter "t" in their posts - not possible, and not desirable anyway (at least by me).

[Jawbone54]

What's the difference between saying it under an anonymous Internet persona and in "real life?" I think people are less prone to be a jerk face-to-face (though it happens more than I think it should).

[besson3c]

Over the internet there is no way to gauge what sorts of conversations are making others uncomfortable, what people mean when they say things, what sort of inflections are used, etc.

[Kevin]

We all have said things that have bothered people, that we very well know they will bother people. It's those things we should really strive to stop doing.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

We all have said things that have bothered people, that we very well know they will bother people. It's those things we should really strive to stop doing.

What if those people are just overly sensitive?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

What if those people are just overly sensitive?

My point of view? Still not try to offend them. Not for PC sake, but to not make anyone think you mean to offend.

Most often people are offended by WHO said it more than WHAT was being said.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

What if those people are just overly sensitive?

What if they are? There is nothing wrong with being sensitive, and just insisting that somebody should not be sensitive is like insisting that somebody insensitive should be sensitive, or that somebody who is tall shouldn't be tall.

There isn't enough sensitivity in this world, I would rather err on the side of over-sensitivity than under-sensitivity.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

My point of view? Still not try to offend them. Not for PC sake, but to not make anyone think you mean to offend.

Most often people are offended by WHO said it more than WHAT was being said.

Wait. At first you said "bothered," but in this post you said "offend."

Because there are people here that are bothered by just about every post you make. So should you stop posting to appease them?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Wait. At first you said "bothered," but in this post you said "offend."

Bothered, offend.. same thing? I am meaning that whatever that person says makes them upset in a way it offends them.

Because there are people here that are bothered by just about every post you make. So should you stop posting to appease them?

I think that is something different all together. That isn't being offended. Thats just people having chips on their shoulders.

Some people get offended sometimes at the most opportune moments too.

I know not too long ago I had a sig up that said something about hating country music. I had it up not even a week and a bunch of people got offended and I was asked to remove it.

Well another user here that posts lots in different parts of the forum has had the same sig up for the last 3 or 4 months. No one got "offended" by it.

[Laminar]

Or being "bothered."

[Shaddim]

< cues What a Wonderful World >

So, the Jesus-freaks, heathens, ditto-heads, pinkos, breeders, queens, neocons, and hippies all need to stop pushing their views down people's throats.

< stops the record >

Wait a second... that sounds pretty damned boring to me. God knows I don't want to spook the Eloi, but sometimes tough conversation, and even arguments, help us grow more than perpetual introspection and harp-strumming. Not that I don't like listening to a well played harp, or the finer works of Mr. Armstrong, but occasionally it's good just to wail and gnash your teeth too.


Well, that's enough jazz for one day, time to serve up the Misfits for a while.

[abe]

Originally Posted by hart 

words to live by.

After 12 years with kids I've developed a standard response that drives them crazy:

"Mommy!!!! Sam called me a poopy face!" or "Mommy!!! Sam is a poopy face!!!!" and I say

"Thank you for telling me."

and then I move on. It's self defense. I'm one of those people who tends to take responsibility for other people's emotional mess so I have disciplined myself to adopt a zen-like detachment. There is no profit in getting all up in arms about someone else and their thing unless they're actually doing something that is immoral, illegal, hurtful, etc. Getting in your face with words doesn't count. Just move your face to another spot.

The powerful thing about "thank you for telling me" is that on the surface it is totally polite and respectful but underneath is the whole potential for "I don't give a ####." but it's really hard to call you on it.

Love your post. Love your philosophy. Love the truths behind the actions.

BTW, what do you think of the new NBC show, "LIFE" with the detective who has developed a Zen attitude toward life after being freed from a life sentence after being wrongfully imprisoned for taking a life?

Life TV Show, Series - Video Clips, Episode Recaps, Photos, Bios, Downloads & Games � NBC Official Site

Watch [free online at the link above] the earliest episodes to get the funniest lines and scenes relating to his Zen outlook. It's a great show.

Are we now living in "The Age of Deniability?" (I coined the phrase.) It's when the truth is incidental to being able to deny the negative aspects of a statement or action. As long as we have a good argument and can't be pinned down, that is now the new standard to which we aspire. The truth? Pfft!

Please don't take this personally nor as a criticism.



Really.

[abe]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

We all make mistakes. Sometimes when we do, we are the last person to notice. I know It has happened to before. But yeah. This thread is kinda strange coming from besson. Maybe he has had an epiphany.

And no this wasn't an attack on you besson. I agree. People shouldn't be PURPOSELY mean to people just because they think they can. Having said that, we have ALL done it. Not one person in here can honestly say they have never made inflammatory statements.

So while yes besson has a history of making them, him pointing out that maybe we shouldn't be is still a good point. And I hope he carries on with this type of thinking.

I do things all the time I know I shouldn't do, and I am sure we all do.

Amen.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Try to separate between work-related and personal discussions.

On that tangent, how about non-Lounge mods in the Lounge, just in general ?

Should they try to separate between "work-related" (i.e. their forum) and personal discussions ?

Just wondering...

-t

[besson3c]

I'm not even talking about insulting things that we say to people...

Have you ever heard the expression "bite your tongue"? This usually applies to things which you are thinking or feeling that may not be in your best interest to share at that point in time. What I'm saying is that it seems that some people lack these sorts of sensibilities and self-imposed filters. These things may not be blatantly insulting like calling somebody a name or centering somebody out or something, but simply things that may offend despite the fact that this wasn't its primary purpose.

Again, as an example I return to any variety of hot button issue. Ranting and raving about an issue is not the same as directly insulting somebody, but it may have the same effect if the issue is dear enough to a person or otherwise invokes some overwhelming emotion. It's not nice to press peoples' buttons like that, yet many people don't even realize that they are doing so or know any better, so it seems. That is what I'm trying to get at.

Am I starting to make sense?

Obviously we all say insulting things to each other for various reasons, but I think this is a different point.