[moonmonkey]

Major Supermarkets in Hong Kong have started charging for plastic bags and encouraging people to bring reusable jute bags, they say this is for environmental reasons.

I don't see the reasoning behind this, as everyone I know keeps and reuses the plastic bags as bin liners, dog turd picker uppers etc.

Now we have to purchase rolls of bin liners from the supermarkets which are not made of recycled / biodegradable plastics and not produced locally.

So this seems to me like its damaging the environment more than ever, the same amount of plastic will get used, its just now we have to pay for it.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

reusable jute bags

Reusable about 10,000 times..

everyone I know keeps and reuses the plastic bags as bin liners, dog turd picker uppers etc.

"reuses" once, eh? Still ends up right in the landfill.

Now we have to purchase rolls of bin liners from the supermarkets which are not made of recycled / biodegradable plastics and not produced locally.

Rolls of liners?? I have two cotton bags that hold about the same amount of stuff as 8-10 of the plastic ones.

So this seems to me like its damaging the environment more than ever, the same amount of plastic will get used, its just now we have to pay for it.

Jute or Cotton != plastic.

[moonmonkey]

You missed the point.
I can't use cotton liners as the items need to be in a bag to before they are placed in the main bin.
Not giving us bags in the supermarket does not reduce plastic bag consumption as we then need to buy plastic bags for other purposes.

[TETENAL]

Waste bags are much thinner than shopping bags, so they produce less plastic waste. The true reason they charge for the bags though is because they cost money.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Waste bags are much thinner than shopping bags, so they produce less plastic waste.

This is certainly not true here. The average supermarket bag is much thinner than the average waste bag.

But yep, it's about money. And pressure from the idiot environmentalists.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

You missed the point.
I can't use cotton liners as the items need to be in a bag to before they are placed in the main bin.
Not giving us bags in the supermarket does not reduce plastic bag consumption as we then need to buy plastic bags for other purposes.

In order for that to be true, 100% of the free supermarket bags would need to be re-used, and none just thrown out after being used. Do you really think that's true?

[moonmonkey]

Yes waste bags are thicker here and non biodegradable, so basically its a money making con and actually detrimental to the environment.

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by BRussell 

In order for that to be true, 100% of the free supermarket bags would need to be re-used, and none just thrown out after being used. Do you really think that's true?

100% of mine were recycled at least once, obviously not everyone is the same. Plastic shopping bag consumption will decrease in Hong Kong, but also non biodegradable plastic bin liners and other plastic bags will drastically increase in consumption.

Doesn't make sense to me.

[analogika]

I think it's marvellous that every one of your plastic bags was recycled at least once. That, however, has absolutely nothing to do with general usage.

They started charging for plastic shopping bags in Germany about twenty years ago.
Use is currently at a yearly average of 43 per person per year.
Use in the United States is at 333 per person per year.
(Source: National Geographic)

Unfortunately, I was unable to find usage numbers for Germany *before* they started charging.

However, according to this article on the history of the plastic bag (from a fairly reputable source), since Ireland has imposed a mandatory levy of €0.15 per plastic shopping bag in March 2002, usage has gone down by NINETY PERCENT.

So it's a good idea.

End of discussion.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

100% of mine were recycled at least once, obviously not everyone is the same. Plastic shopping bag consumption will decrease in Hong Kong, but also non biodegradable plastic bin liners and other plastic bags will drastically increase in consumption.

Doesn't make sense to me.

If people used them previously, now they'll pay for them at the supermarket, and won't waste any. For people who wasted them, they'll stop paying for them. I don't see how that doesn't make sense.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

but also non biodegradable

What makes you think that supermarket shopping bags are biodegradable? Because, they're not. Plastic bags don’t biodegrade, they photodegrade – breaking down into smaller and smaller bits, some of them highly toxic, other mimicking human hormones, many of them entering the water supply. Plastic bags are one of the most environmentally harmful habits we have developed. On average, each person in the Western world uses 300 bags a year. Collectively, the people of BC use 1.2 billion bags a year, using 18 million litres of the world’s oil supply a year, releasing 50,400 tonnes of CO2. (Data via San Francisco’s Department of the Environment).

• Plastic bags start as crude oil, natural gas, or other petrochemical derivatives, which are transformed into chains of hydrogen and carbon molecules known as polymers or polymer resin. We really have better uses for oil these days.
• North America and Western Europe account for nearly 80 percent of plastic bag use—though the bags are increasingly common in developing countries as well.
• A quarter of the plastic bags used in wealthy nations are now produced in Asia.
• Each year, Americans throw away some 100 billion polyethylene plastic bags. (Only 0.6 percent of plastic bags are recycled.)
• In January 2002, the South African government required manufacturers to make plastic bags more durable and more expensive to discourage their disposal—prompting a 90-percent reduction in use.
• Ireland instituted a £0.15-per-bag tax in March 2002, which led to a 95-percent reduction in use.
• Some manufacturers have introduced biodegradable or compostable plastic bags made from starches, polymers or poly-lactic acid, and no polyethylene—though these remain prohibitively expensive and account for less than 1 percent of the market.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by analogika 

So it's a good idea.

End of discussion.

I don't think so on both points. The discussion will continue and it may not be a good idea for everyone.

Having supermarkets charge for the bags is getting charged twice for the same product. Those bags which are free for us, are not really free. They cost the supermarket something, and so they include that in their overhead which makes its way into the prices they charge. Now that they're charging for those bags will they reduce the cost of the food? I doubt it.

Additionally while there's no argument that they do end up in the landfill, many people re-use them and so their utility has higher value then a single tasker. Basically we will find another product to use in place of the "free" shopping bags. Will they be any flimsier then the current shopping bags - doubtful I haven't seen anything. If they're not we're actually filling the land fills with something worse.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

And pressure from the idiot environmentalists.

You know I generally like your 'I call a spade a spade posts' even if I disagree with them, but the above is just a really stupid statement. Nobody in their right mind, from right to left, is arguing that plastic bags are in any way a good thing for the environment.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Additionally while there's no argument that they do end up in the landfill, many people use them and so their utility has higher then a single tasker. Basically we will find another product to use in place of the "free" shopping bags. Will they be any flimsier then the current shopping bags - doubtful I haven't seen anything. If they're no we're actually filling the land fills with something worse.

That just strikes me as a really silly argument.

People have been going shopping for HUNDREDS of years, and disposable plastic bags didn't enter into the equation until about fifty years ago.

Most people I know have about a dozen or so cotton bags, and always have one or two along. These things are cheap, are MUCH more resilient than most plastic shopping bags, and the ones in my household have been in use for YEARS.

And then there's people who actually use baskets for shopping. Or their backpacks. Or keep cotton bags in their backpack.

Of course, shops here have been charging for plastic bags since the late '70s, so we've all had lots and lots of time to figure out adequate solutions, finally resulting in the invention of the cotton bag.

I realize this will be incredibly difficult to figure out and adjust to for people who are just arriving in the late 20th century, post-oil-crisis world, but I'm sure y'all will come up with something. Eventually.

BTW, paper bags are *not* an eco-friendly alternative.

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

I
Additionally while there's no argument that they do end up in the landfill, many people re-use them and so their utility has higher value then a single tasker. Basically we will find another product to use in place of the "free" shopping bags. Will they be any flimsier then the current shopping bags - doubtful I haven't seen anything. If they're not we're actually filling the land fills with something worse.

That was my point, i'm glad someone could see it.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Having supermarkets charge for the bags is getting charged twice for the same product. Those bags which are free for us, are not really free. They cost the supermarket something, and so they include that in their overhead which makes its way into the prices they charge. Now that they're charging for those bags will they reduce the cost of the food? I doubt it.
.

The point is that this is not meant to be an extra income stream for supermarkets, it is a punitive tax that is designed to change consumer behaviour. The easiest way to change people's behaviour is not by education, it's simply by hitting them in their pockets.

My local supermarket has introduced reusable shopping bags made from 100% recycled plastic. The bags are large and strong and sell for $1.00. At the same time, ordinary plastic bags cost five cents these days. Plastic bag use has been reduced by over 60% in that store.

[MacosNerd]

I think in general (because I'm a cynic ) that supermarkets that charge for plastic bags do so as a means to increase their revenue and not because they're concerned about the environment. If they were truly concerned, they would take other actions that would have a greater impact on the economy, like general product packaging or their having their lights on 24x365 days etc.

No as I mentioned they've already worked the cost of the bags into the product prices now they get to create another revenue stream and look like they're helping the environment

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

What makes you think that supermarket shopping bags are biodegradable?

Because the supermarkets say they are biodegradable and they biodegradable is printed on the bag.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

That was my point, i'm glad someone could see it.

And the answer to that is simple: Wean yourself off plastic bag usage. Plastic bags didn't exist before 1955 and yet people still lived.
Thankfully, with oil reaching $100.00 a gallon and more, many of these problems will be solved for us, simply because it won't be economical anymore to use once, throw away forever.

There are alternatives out there made from starch and corn but they have their own impact on society and the environment.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

You know I generally like your 'I call a spade a spade posts' even if I disagree with them, but the above is just a really stupid statement. Nobody in their right mind, from right to left, is arguing that plastic bags are in any way a good thing for the environment.

Of course plastic bags aren't good for the environment. But what the idiot environmentalists tend to do is want them banned without observing the impact of the alternatives.

As an example, those same environmentalists want us all to scrap our cars and drive around in hybrids, only taking into account MPG and completely disregarding the carbon footprint generated in the manufacture of new vehicles. Same thing with the bags - has anyone actually looked at how green the alternatives are?

The average idiot environmentalist only sees the surface problem and solution. They tend to work to a dogma, not to the realities of a situation.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

Because the supermarkets say they are biodegradable and they biodegradable is printed on the bag.

I would check that carefully. Everything is biodegradable in time, but as I've said above most plastic bags do not biodegrade, they photodegrade. Unless your supermarket's bags are made from natural materials chance are that they are pulling the wool over your eyes.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

has anyone actually looked at how green the alternatives are?

The alternatives in this case might just be that we need to stop putting convenience before sustainability. Do you remember history lessons at school how appalled (and amused) everybody was when we learned that people were just throwing excrement into the streets? I am pretty sure our descendants will feel the same about us one day.

I agree with the 'hey let's all buy a Prius' nonsense btw.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Of course plastic bags aren't good for the environment. But what the idiot environmentalists tend to do is want them banned without observing the impact of the alternatives.

However true (or not) that may be, it has absolutely nothing to do with plastic bags.

Plenty of countries have plenty of experience with this subject, and there's no controversy in sight.

The alternative in this case, of course, being re-usable, washable bags, rather than a simple shift to other disposables.

[Eug]

You can buy biodegradable plastic garbage bags.

[dcmacdaddy]

My grocery store of choice offers paper bags but not plastic bags.

They also sell cotton/canvas bags for USD$2 each that are quite handy. Although, if you ever wash them to clean them-I keep mine in the trunk of my car with other grimy car stuff--they shrink to a small, not-very-usable size.

But this same store has come out with large, nylon bags with that can be rinsed out easily. These new bags are USD$1 each so I have three of them and they get used every time I go to the grocery store.

My canvas bags are now used to store camping gear and I get my plastic bags --to be used as bin liners--from Target or trips to the pharmacy.

Anyway, don't whine about having to pay for grocery bags. It is definitely intended as a negative incentive so you will switch to their reusable fabric bags. If you still need small plastic bags as bin liners, pick them up when you make purchases at other stores like a pharmacy or mini-mart. I think overall there will be less plastic bags produced and those bags that do get produced should be re-used more often before ending up in the trash.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Of course plastic bags aren't good for the environment. But what the idiot environmentalists tend to do is want them banned without observing the impact of the alternatives.

As an example, those same environmentalists want us all to scrap our cars and drive around in hybrids, only taking into account MPG and completely disregarding the carbon footprint generated in the manufacture of new vehicles. Same thing with the bags - has anyone actually looked at how green the alternatives are?

The average idiot environmentalist only sees the surface problem and solution. They tend to work to a dogma, not to the realities of a situation.

Plus, we'd all look ghey.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

I don't see the reasoning behind this, as everyone I know keeps and reuses the plastic bags as bin liners, dog turd picker uppers etc.

Unfortunately, everyone you know is a statistically insignificant percentage of the population, as the vast majority of plastic shopping bags do indeed wind up in the trash, or blowing in the wind all over the planet. My daughter decided to use them for her disposing of her cat fecal matter, etc. Every time she goes shopping, she brings home another 6 to 12 of them, which are then stuffed in a large plastic storage box in the laundry room. That box is now overflowing, yet, when I ask what she's going to do with them, she doesn't have a ready answer. What she's doing in reality, of course, is collecting them, until such time as she'll get around to realizing that they need to be thrown out anyway, as she already has more than she can ever use. As others have pointed out, plastic bags are a relatively new invention, and we've lived without them for all but a speck of our history.

The store I shop at has also started selling the reusable bags for $1 each, so I bought three of them, and use them when shopping. IIRC, I read somewhere a while back where plastic grocery bags are actually so prevalent they're winding up in the ocean!

When it becomes prohibitive to use them economically, we will change our usage of them, just like we will change vehicle usage when we see gas pricing adjust to the real cost of not only producing it, but the costs associated with using it. (Cue Doofy, as I'm no doubt a car-hating lefty).

[Andy8]

The problem in Hong Kong is the fee charged for plastic bags is way too cheap.

People still use way too many plastic bags here period.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

I think in general (because I'm a cynic ) that supermarkets that charge for plastic bags do so as a means to increase their revenue and not because they're concerned about the environment. If they were truly concerned, they would take other actions that would have a greater impact on the economy, like general product packaging or their having their lights on 24x365 days etc.

No as I mentioned they've already worked the cost of the bags into the product prices now they get to create another revenue stream and look like they're helping the environment

...are you being serious? Wow.

Say a grocery store uses 500 bags a day times 365 days a year. That's 182,500 bags. And once this tax is imposed, plastic bag usage drops by 95%, taking it down to about 9000 bags. At $0.15 each, that's about $1300 each year in revenue. If you assume that each bag has $10 in groceries in it, they're increasing their revenue by a whopping 0.07 percent. But yeah, it's definitely a conspiracy.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

...are you being serious? Wow.

Say a grocery store uses 500 bags a day times 365 days a year. That's 182,500 bags. And once this tax is imposed, plastic bag usage drops by 95%, taking it down to about 9000 bags. At $0.15 each, that's about $1300 each year in revenue. If you assume that each bag has $10 in groceries in it, they're increasing their revenue by a whopping 0.07 percent. But yeah, it's definitely a conspiracy.

Well, don't forget that those bags cost the store, too! So, assuming a cost of maybe $0.005 per bag, that's $900 annually in costs cut. Though of course the $0.15 bags will probably be slightly higher quality (at least, that's what happened here in Germany in many cases), so they might actually cost $0.03-$0.05 per bag, so that would cut into the huge profits they're making off those bags...

Yes, it's a global envirofascist/shop-proprietor conspiracy, alright.

Edit: The big question, of course, is whether shopping bag costs are tax-deductible as advertising costs for the store. Hmm. Somebody must be raking in the millions in these murky waters...

[ShortcutToMoncton]

*takes a minute to wipe sarcasm off his screen*

[ghporter]

On a windy day near any store that uses those thin plastic bags, you can see scores of them blowing in the breeze. They go out to sea and choke birds and drown fish. They clog drains. They suffocate small animals. They are an eyesore. Encouraging you to use a reusable bag means that less of these waste bags will wind up floating around in the environment, and thus the idea that this is an environmentalist action makes sense.

I use the plastic grocery bags I bring home for a lot of things. Around here they generally come in two sizes, one with about a 10"/250mm square shape when folded flat, and the other about 50-60% larger than that. The small ones are great for "brown bagging" a lunch to school or work; I often reuse them several times. The small ones are great for lining waste baskets and yes, for cleaning the litter box into (or for picking up after the dogs in the back yard-but we use larger ones for that most of the time). So the larger ones generally only get one reuse, but that means I haven't used another petrochemical product for a single use, but rather that I've gotten two uses out of one very small amount of petrochemical product.

Oh, and most of the plastic grocery bags around here are supposedly biodegradable, but only after a very long time, even in the harsh Texas sun.

[nonhuman]

I think it's kinda funny how some people revolt against the idea of stores not providing free bags. This has always been the norm in some places, and used to be the norm everywhere. How hard is it to buy a sturdy bag to reuse?

Sure, I get the plastic bags as the supermarket, but I don't throw them away until they've been re-used at least once. Most get a single extra use when I clean the litter box, the rest get used as lunch bags or just general storage until they tear. If Massachusetts were to ban plastic bags or the stores around here were to start charging for them (not particularly unlikely, really) I'd just get some of the canvas and/or nylon bags for my groceries and be done with it. Not entirely sure what I would use when cleaning the litter box, but I suspect that I'm resourceful enough to come up with something.

[scaught]

Not enough stores in the states charge for plastic or paper bags. Ikea started, but general grocery stores still give them away. I try and use my reusable canvas ones. If I don't have one, I try and either not take a bag or try and get them to put as much crap into one as possible. "yes, the soy milk and fabric softener can share the same plastic bag. I don't care"

[PB2K]

I once started too a thread about the obvious waste of all the plastic little bags I get at the supermarket, and I got a reply from a guy who worked at a plastic bag factory : they made them from potato-pulp

[osiris]

I love plastic bags. They're waterproof, resilient, keep stuff protected, and as far as I can read they're recycled, made from recycled material, and the store gives me a nickel when I bring 'em back.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

On a windy day near any store that uses those thin plastic bags, you can see scores of them blowing in the breeze.

It was one of those days when it's a minute away from snowing and there's this electricity in the air, you can almost hear it. And this bag was, like, dancing with me. Like a little kid begging me to play with it. For fifteen minutes. And that's the day I knew there was this entire life behind things, and... this incredibly benevolent force, that wanted me to know there was no reason to be afraid, ever.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Waste bags are much thinner than shopping bags, so they produce less plastic waste. The true reason they charge for the bags though is because they cost money.

I know this is true in Germany, where the shopping bags are high quality and thick. German plastic bags can be reused many times over.

In the US, the shopping bags are crap, thin and rip after one use.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by scaught 

Not enough stores in the states charge for plastic or paper bags.

Aldi is the only other US store know to me (besides Ikea) that charges for bags.

Coincidentally, Aldi has by far the best prices compared to other grocery chains, or even Wal-Mart.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by osiris 

and the store gives me a nickel when I bring 'em back.

Are you serious ? What store ?

They hand out FREE bags and pay you for brining them back ?

-t

[OreoCookie]

That's the way it works in Berkeley as well: you get 5 cents per plastic bag/10 cents per paper bag you reuse, but otherwise, bags are free.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

It was one of those days when it's a minute away from snowing and there's this electricity in the air, you can almost hear it. And this bag was, like, dancing with me. Like a little kid begging me to play with it. For fifteen minutes. And that's the day I knew there was this entire life behind things, and... this incredibly benevolent force, that wanted me to know there was no reason to be afraid, ever.

"It's a bag! Just a plastic bag blowing in the wind! Do you have any idea how hard it was to design your cardiovascular system?!" - God

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

That's the way it works in Berkeley as well: you get 5 cents per plastic bag/10 cents per paper bag you reuse, but otherwise, bags are free.

Wow, amazing.

But essentially, it's not different that paying for bags.
They first raise their prices to reflect the cost to "pay back the customer", and then you break even if you bring back the bags.

Essentially, it sounds good, but is not as fair, because EVERYONE pays for the bags (in form of higher prices), instead of the person who really uses the bags.

-t

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

"It's a bag! Just a plastic bag blowing in the wind! Do you have any idea how hard it was to design your cardiovascular system?!" - God

Family Guy?

[Dakar the Fourth]

Yeah, I am at a loss too.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Are you serious ? What store ?

They hand out FREE bags and pay you for brining them back ?

-t

It's a small supermarket near me and I can't remember the name, I think American Harvest. Whole Foods has a bag return policy too.

But I'm sure the $5.00 I pay for a half-gallon of milk more than makes up for the nickel.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Yeah, I am at a loss too.

A loss? I'm pretty sure that for a moment I was in the bizarro macnn forums.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by osiris 

It's a small supermarket near me and I can't remember the name, I think American Harvest. Whole Foods has a bag return policy too.

But I'm sure the $5.00 I pay for a half-gallon of milk more than makes up for the nickel.

They for sure seem to harvest your hard earned cash

-t

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Yeah, I am at a loss too.

Yep, the episode where Meg and Neil kiss. Peter's videotaping Stewie riding his trike and he gets distracted by a plastic bag.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Aldi is the only other US store know to me (besides Ikea) that charges for bags.

Coincidentally, Aldi has by far the best prices compared to other grocery chains, or even Wal-Mart.

And coincidentally, Aldi is a German store.