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angelmb · Dec 23, 2007, 03:24 PM

Veni, vidi, vici. FIAT recently launched 500 is European Car of the Year 2008, and BMW says who cares cause our mini is a luxury brand instead of an affordable car everyone could buy… Well, typical hypocrisy, time will serve them right, it took only 9 hours for the first Cinquecento's shipment to be sold out here in Spain.

CMYKid · Dec 23, 2007, 05:06 PM

I'm pretty sure BMW never intended the Mini to compete in the low-end crappycarmarket. Or to be any sort of volkswagenish car of the people. So its really a straw man comparison, perhaps you just have something against BMWs.

Shaddim · Dec 23, 2007, 05:28 PM

wow, that's really... fugly.

and cramped.

imitchellg5 · Dec 23, 2007, 05:44 PM

They are actually prettty comfortable inside. They are well designed and well built. BMW didn't really intend to compete with this car... because the Fiat 500 (new body style) wasn't around when the new Mini was made. However, Fiat is smart enough to realize that retro looking cars sell very well. I doubt that this car will do much to the Mini's sales, since almost all Minis sold seem to be the S version. The Fiat can't possibly compete with the S.

analogika · Dec 23, 2007, 05:53 PM

Nor does it want to.

The so-called "mini" is ****in' HUGE.

Shaddim · Dec 23, 2007, 06:00 PM

I drive a `99 M3 and it's perfect for my height. That thing looks cramped.

hyteckit · Dec 23, 2007, 06:29 PM

The Toyota Yaris looks better.

Toyota Yaris - 2008 Pictures & Photo Gallery

Rumor · Dec 23, 2007, 06:39 PM

The Yaris is a womans car through and through.

imitchellg5 · Dec 23, 2007, 06:40 PM

Unfortunately it's interior is a ton worse than the Fiat's in terms of room and design. I can't stand center gauges. About the same amount of power, they both have.

Kerrigan · Dec 23, 2007, 06:49 PM

These are all women's cars, basically. It's like arguing about who's penis is smaller.

imitchellg5 · Dec 23, 2007, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

These are all women's cars, basically. It's like arguing about who's penis is smaller.

I believe this is the car you're talking about:

hyteckit · Dec 23, 2007, 07:09 PM

What's a man's car and what's a woman's car?

Do I need to go from 0-60 in under 5 secs?

Do I need to drive a pickup truck or a hummer to be a man?

Dude, I'm a computer geek who does web development for a living, not construction work. I drive a Mazda 3 hatchback. Really nice car.

imitchellg5 · Dec 23, 2007, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

What's a man's car and what's a woman's car?

Do I need to go from 0-60 in under 5 secs?

Do I need to drive a pickup truck or a hummer to be a man?

Dude, I'm a computer geek who does web development for a living, not construction work. I drive a Mazda 3 hatchback. Really nice car.

1) A cute looking car.
2) No.
3) No. Hummers are for girls who need an ego boost.
4) Great! Those are sweet cars. I'd say that it's a manly car.

Kerrigan · Dec 23, 2007, 07:14 PM

I tend to agree that H2s and H3s are for girls or other, uh, demographics that need an ego boost.

Also, computer geeks are, in Schwarzeneggerian terminology, Girly Men, so they deserve to drive girly cars.

Shaddim · Dec 23, 2007, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

What's a man's car and what's a woman's car?

Man's car = fast, agile, and no wimpy junk like power steering.

Do I need to go from 0-60 in under 5 secs?

Need? No. Want? Hell yes.

Do I need to drive a pickup truck or a hummer to be a man?

It helps. Especially when hauling wood, mulch, or dirt all day. A Hummer isn't a "man's" truck, real men drive early 70s Broncos.

imitchellg5 · Dec 23, 2007, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I tend to agree that H2s and H3s are for girls or other, uh, demographics that need an ego boost.

Yeah. I really only know one person with a Hummer who I think really needs it. He's a realtor in Washington State who sells properties up in the Cascades. Most of them either have no road going to them or a goat trail. He really uses the off-road capabilities. It's a very smooth off roader and isn't terrible on road (most of these places you have to drive an hour at least off-road with 3 or 4 people, so an Xterra or Jeep is out) It was either that or a Land Rover, and Hummers have a bit better reliability than that.

Tomchu · Dec 23, 2007, 08:41 PM

YouTube - Re: Offroad Hummer H2

Hummer H2s are for idiots and "gangstaz".

imitchellg5 · Dec 23, 2007, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Tomchu

YouTube - Re: Offroad Hummer H2

Hummer H2s are for idiots and "gangstaz".

That's his fault. When you are off-roading like that, you either need to pay more attention to where you're going, or have someone sighting for you (not standing around talking). However, I would rather have a Wrangler for that kind of stuff.

Rumor · Dec 23, 2007, 09:12 PM

You should need anyone spotting for little stuff like that.

I prefer a Samarai over a Wrangler.

Cipher13 · Dec 23, 2007, 09:28 PM

TJs own (though the JK is better, it looks like crap). Anyone 4wding in a H2/H3 is a fool.

Shaddim · Dec 23, 2007, 09:31 PM

I wouldn't turn down an H1 if it were offered. That is, if a person could find one.

Cipher13 · Dec 23, 2007, 09:33 PM

A real Humvee is a different kettle of fish... but nonetheless, not a great track 4wd choice.

Shaddim · Dec 23, 2007, 09:37 PM

Maybe not for a track, but for the wilderness around here an H1 would be ideal.

Major hotness: Hummer '06 Hummer H1 @ Lynch Hummer

Edit: Now, if I could only justify the $115K to buy one.

hyteckit · Dec 23, 2007, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by Shaddim

Maybe not for a track, but for the wilderness around here an H1 would be ideal.

Major hotness: Hummer '06 Hummer H1 @ Lynch Hummer

Edit: Now, if I could only justify the $115K to buy one.

Good luck finding parking in major cities. I wouldn't be able to park that wide-ass vehicle in most places.

Cipher13 · Dec 23, 2007, 09:42 PM

Come to think of it, a Humvee would do pretty well in Aus, though I'd quite rather a LandCruiser RV/Troopy or a Defender, mostly for the huge range.

Shaddim · Dec 23, 2007, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Good luck finding parking in major cities. I wouldn't be able to park that wide-ass vehicle in most places.

I'd never take it to a major city. A vehicle like that would only have one function in life, going places where roads have never been.

But then, that's my Bronco's main job, which it does quite well. An H1 would just do it better.

voodoo · Dec 23, 2007, 10:07 PM

A *man's* car!

Also a man's car:

V

Shaddim · Dec 23, 2007, 10:17 PM

2.0 L intercooled turbodiesel engine and a six-speed manual transmission

In a Bronco?

No way. It needs a big diesel V8.

Rumor · Dec 24, 2007, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by Cipher13

A real Humvee is a different kettle of fish... but nonetheless, not a great track 4wd choice.

Yep. Buddy of mine that worked on them in the military said the transfer case was constantly being replaced on them.

Andy8 · Dec 24, 2007, 07:02 AM

We need uncle Doofy here now.

angelmb · Dec 24, 2007, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by CMYKid

I'm pretty sure BMW never intended the Mini to compete in the low-end crappycarmarket. Or to be any sort of volkswagenish car of the people. So its really a straw man comparison, perhaps you just have something against BMWs.

Well, besides finding most of their cars hideous (which is all about personal taste cause even skoda wants to look like a BMW LOL) I have nothing against BMW, but it is like they don't care cause this car has a lowborn decal, it was a german logo instead of crappy FIAT they would run to the drawing board in a blind panic.

Nowadays, more and more families with two adult drivers find it necessary to have two cars, so are you willing to spend a unfair amount of bucks on a mini -luxury car- or would you be OK with a modern, far away from 80s nightmares, well designed italian car?

Look at all-mighty NOKIA, did they blame the iPhone?, no way, they stated it actually could be good for the phone market. As they used to say "Never be haughty to the humble; never be humble to the haughty".

angelmb · Dec 24, 2007, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by Andy8

We need uncle Doofy here now.

and cash. He would for sure add some spice to it.

Nexus5 · Dec 24, 2007, 07:38 AM

FIAT = Fix It Again Tony

nexus5.

hwojtek · 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

They are actually prettty comfortable inside.

No, they're not. I did over 1000 kilometers in a 500 a few weeks ago and "comfortable" is the last thing I would say about this car, that is built on a compressed Panda platform. I am 186 centimeters tall and couldn't find space for my left foot, right knee, left shoulder and top of my head.

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

They are well designed and well built.

The build quality can be judged after a year or so, all new cars look reasonably well built. I can remember however, that the test cars we' ve been using in August 2007 on the European Fiat 500 Press Launch were just plain awful. The roofilner was not attached to the roof, the center console was falling apart, etc.

Shaddim · Dec 24, 2007, 11:08 AM

So, the old saying holds true, you get what you pay for.

imitchellg5 · Dec 24, 2007, 11:16 AM

It's pretty much always true in the automotive market. Except, I will have to say, the Mazdaspeed 3 is an exception. Bose sound, heated leather, 263 hp, for $25k.

nonhuman · Dec 24, 2007, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Dude, I'm a computer geek who does web development for a living, not construction work. I drive a Mazda 3 hatchback. Really nice car.

Are you ...me?

We've got the Grand Touring edition of the 3 hatchback ('06), gotta love those heated leather seats in the winter.

CMYKid · Dec 24, 2007, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by angelmb

Well, besides finding most of their cars hideous (which is all about personal taste cause even skoda wants to look like a BMW LOL) I have nothing against BMW, but it is like they don't care cause this car has a lowborn decal, it was a german logo instead of crappy FIAT they would run to the drawing board in a blind panic.

Nowadays, more and more families with two adult drivers find it necessary to have two cars, so are you willing to spend a unfair amount of bucks on a mini -luxury car- or would you be OK with a modern, far away from 80s nightmares, well designed italian car?

What I meant is that you're really comparing cars from completely disparate markets. Why should BMW (or anyone) care one way or another about consumers they arent competing for? They're not IN the same market as the Fiat so anyone comparng them isnt making a worthwhile comparison either.

I much prefer my two pre-bangle BMWs to most all of the recent styles (thoe the new 6 series is still incredible and the M4 I've driven this week is perfect), but the Minis and 3-series arent at all intended to compete with Fiats.

BMW are doing a bit to enter those markets in the European area a bit tho right? I havent paid much attetion but I thought I remembered photos of a 1 or 2 series or soemthing similar on the horizon.

Laminar · Dec 24, 2007, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by imitchellg5

...Bose sound...

Uh oh.

indigoimac · Dec 24, 2007, 10:50 PM

The goal of the 500 is to bring a little fun and attention to Fiat... guess what, this whole thread is about a fiat (not including the mazda 3, hummer and bronco conversations haha) Basically, we're paying attention to what Fiat is doing.

OwlBoy · Dec 25, 2007, 03:21 AM

Fugly cars for the win.

analogika · Dec 25, 2007, 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by Laminar

Uh oh.

No, actually, in the car, it's fine.

Because in the car, audio fidelity is a complete illusion - and Bose's approach of "let's use completely mediocre hardware and **** with phases, overtone generation, and sound-field distortion until it sounds flashy enough to triple-charge for it" actually works here. It's the only place it does.

analogika · Dec 25, 2007, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by CMYKid

What I meant is that you're really comparing cars from completely disparate markets. Why should BMW (or anyone) care one way or another about consumers they arent competing for? They're not IN the same market as the Fiat so anyone comparng them isnt making a worthwhile comparison either.
[...]
BMW are doing a bit to enter those markets in the European area a bit tho right? I havent paid much attetion but I thought I remembered photos of a 1 or 2 series or soemthing similar on the horizon.

The BMW 1-series has been available for a couple of years now. It's not the same market, though, just because it's a "small" car.

Same argument from people who insist on comparing the MacBook with $700 laptops - that's simply not a target market Apple is competing for.

angelmb · Dec 25, 2007, 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by CMYKid

What I meant is that you're really comparing cars from completely disparate markets. Why should BMW (or anyone) care one way or another about consumers they arent competing for? They're not IN the same market as the Fiat so anyone comparng them isnt making a worthwhile comparison either.

I much prefer my two pre-bangle BMWs to most all of the recent styles (thoe the new 6 series is still incredible and the M4 I've driven this week is perfect), but the Minis and 3-series arent at all intended to compete with Fiats.

BMW are doing a bit to enter those markets in the European area a bit tho right? I havent paid much attetion but I thought I remembered photos of a 1 or 2 series or soemthing similar on the horizon.

I really understand what you mean. But actually, a mini is going to have to compete with the 500 and cars like the upcoming -now that's fugly- VW small city car. For sure it is going to be people for whom the FIAT is out of the equation since day one, but in the same way it is going to be people wondering if the mini is really worth the extra money. After all over here they sell the mini even with a Diesel engine, and when it comes to small or 'not that big' engines BMW and the alike are far from being the best thing, (e.g. a Renault Clio Sport would eat a Mini Cooper like there is no tomorrow) not to mention the 500 is the new kid on the block, which always helps, it is trendy.

My main point is than you don't sell a car anymore just with your badge as main factor. Oh!! is a bimmer, dad had one, it has to be good!!. Yeah, you can get a 1 Series so… does that imply you got the very best thing for the money or the best & only car with a bimmer logo you could afford?, I guess most people would echo the later one.

The BMW 1-series has been available for a couple of years now. It's not the same market, though, just because it's a "small" car.

Same argument from people who insist on comparing the MacBook with $700 laptops - that's simply not a target market Apple is competing for.

Of course no FIAT is going to compete ever with a let say, 3 Series, FIAT is the lowest-end of italian car makers, they don't even have a proper car to place side by side with the german car, but that's a different history. Would you say the Passat competes with the BMW 3 Series?, sure, cause it is german?, then wouldn't an Alfa 159 compete even better than the Passat?, another one, is a TT a better choice than a Brera?

Like it or not you have to look wider than your 'by default' established competitors, they call it marketing miopia for a reason.

Laminar · Dec 25, 2007, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by analogika

No, actually, in the car, it's fine.

Because in the car, audio fidelity is a complete illusion - and Bose's approach of "let's use completely mediocre hardware and **** with phases, overtone generation, and sound-field distortion until it sounds flashy enough to triple-charge for it" actually works here. It's the only place it does.

I'd bet I get better sound from my 5x7s and 10" sub.

analogika · Dec 25, 2007, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Laminar

I'd bet I get better sound from my 5x7s and 10" sub.

Doubtful.

You'd get a louder throb, for sure.

Again: "hi-fi" comes from "fidelity", which is pretty much meaningless in car stereos, anyway.

Enjoy your sub, and do the world a favor and try not to let *them* enjoy it too much, as well, mmkay?

imitchellg5 · Dec 25, 2007, 04:00 PM

I think the only car audio that sounds better (from the factory) is the harmon/kardon systems in the new Mercedes.

hyteckit · Dec 25, 2007, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by nonhuman

Are you ...me?

We've got the Grand Touring edition of the 3 hatchback ('06), gotta love those heated leather seats in the winter.

Well, I live in Southern California, so I never use heated leather seats. I wished they had air condition leather seats cause it gets freaking hot during the summer.

I have crazy features like auto-windshield wiper and tire pressure sensor found in expensive cars like BMW. I didn't even know I had those until it automatically came on. Hah...

Laminar · Dec 25, 2007, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

Doubtful.

You'd get a louder throb, for sure.

Again: "hi-fi" comes from "fidelity", which is pretty much meaningless in car stereos, anyway.

Enjoy your sub, and do the world a favor and try not to let *them* enjoy it too much, as well, mmkay?

Infinity makes some pretty good car audio stuff. And no, I'm NOT one to pump my music for the world to hear, which is why I have a single 10" sub. It's perfect for me to enjoy in the car.

angelmb · Dec 26, 2007, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by hyteckit

I have crazy features like auto-windshield wiper and tire pressure sensor found in expensive cars like BMW. I didn't even know I had those until it automatically came on. Hah...

Crazy features, really?, whoa… they are very much standard in most if not all medium size european cars, and I am not talking about expensive german cars here but unexpensive french cars. And it is not like I love those gadgets, they are still kind of dumb when it comes to work when you 'really' need them -auto windshield wiper is a pain-.