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Jan 22, 2008, 02:46 PM
 
Don Pickett Wrote:
You are conflating two things. I don't know whether or not you're doing it purposefully or out of ignorance.

It's ignorance I assure you.


Comparing historical values, especially over almost 100 years, is a useless exercise, as the economic bases of America (and the world) in 1918 and the economic bases of America (and the world) now are so different as to defy categorization. You can only use the most general things as reference, i.e., all speculative bubbles burst, etc. You could've made the argument in August, 1929, and it would have held as much water.

The dollar has lost significant value in the last fie years against the currencies of all our major trading partners, and against the world in general. If you look back 30 years, the long term trend line is steadily down. If you look back five years, the downward slope is increasing.

OK, I'm following so far... But hold on a sec... 30 years ago? Wasn't
that when the last vestiges of the gold standard were removed?
Nixon - 1973 - You're saying you think there's no correlation at all?
I'm not an economist but I'm very interested in what old-timers
and seasoned economists have to say and always eager to learn
more. Especially in these times. I think economic awareness is
especially needed these days. For example I loved reading this:
What the Price of Gold Is Telling Us by Ron Paul
and found
it VERY edifying.

It has lost 1/3 of its value since 2002, and 12.5% in the last year alone. And the reasons for this are basic and deep-seated economic problems in the U.S. and structural problems with our economy. And, if you want a history lesson, look at what happened to the English economy in the years 1875-1914.

Now, you tell me what happens when the dollar is no longer the international reserve currency.

Or maybe it might be just as or more important to ask what about
the US Dollar made it the primary reserve currency in the first place?

edit: One of the problems with a lack of historical perspective is people expect all crashes to look like the Depression, when stockbrokers were jumping out of windows. They don't.
Very true! Hopefully that will never reoccur. The sources I follow
seem think that the eventual result of this continuing collapse will
be the diminishment of the Middle Class in the USA with a few shock
waves here and there along the line. Like maybe todays was?
( Last edited by Tesselator; Jan 22, 2008 at 02:53 PM. )
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 03:08 PM
 
I have yet to opt in to the 401K here at my new job. I'm watching for the bottom of this thing, before i do. I think I'm better off spending the cash as quick as I can get it right now -- paying debts down, etc. I'll start shoveling in 5% or so once things finish "correcting."

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 03:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
OK, I'm following so far... But hold on a sec... 30 years ago? Wasn't that when the last vestiges of the gold standard were removed? Nixon - 1973 - You're saying you think there's no correlation at all? I'm not an economist but I'm very interested in what old-timers and seasoned economists have to say and always eager to learn more.
I'm not an economist either, but I am curious, a student of history, and the son of an MBA. That said, the Gold Standard is, unfortunately, one of the most poorly understood and most reductively argued economic theories out there. Many people seem to think it is some sort of panacea which will magically remove inflation, speculation and warts. It's not. It's just another way to structure an economy, and it comes with a huge rash of problems. Read about U.S. economic history in the period after the Civil War to get a good feeling as to why the Gold Standard is oftentimes an extremely poor way to structure an economy.

Or maybe it might be just as or more important to ask what about the US Dollar made it the primary reserve currency in the first place?
That's easy. The U.S. came out of World War II as, by far, the world's largest economy. Additionally, as a nation, our Federal debt was largely under control, and steadily rising wages meant income kept ahead of inflation so we had a positive personal savings rate. Because of this, dollars either invested in American securities, or parked in American investments, banks, real estate, etc., could be counted on to always be there. In other words, in a worst case scenario you could always get your money back. The U.S. government and economy weren't going to close up shop and disappear. In the 1950s and 1960s, when the European economies were recovering from two world wars in forty years and Asia was rebuilding, you couldn't say about any other country.


Very true! Hopefully that will never reoccur. The sources I follow seem think that the eventual result of this continuing collapse will be the diminishment of the Middle Class in the USA with a few shock waves here and there along the line. Like maybe todays was?
First of all, the middle class has been slowly disappearing since the early 1970s, when wages stopped keeping up with inflation.

Second of all, I have no idea what will happen, but I think it will be worse than a few shock waves. This thing hasn't even started yet.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 03:16 PM
 
My mutual funds are only down an average of 0.6%.
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Jan 22, 2008, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by chris v View Post
I have yet to opt in to the 401K here at my new job. I'm watching for the bottom of this thing, before i do. I think I'm better off spending the cash as quick as I can get it right now -- paying debts down, etc. I'll start shoveling in 5% or so once things finish "correcting."
Does your employer not pay any 401k match ?

If he does, you're throwing money out the window not taking that.

-t
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Does your employer not pay any 401k match ?

If he does, you're throwing money out the window not taking that.

-t
No, they don't. It's a small company -- they can't afford to match.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by chris v View Post
No, they don't. It's a small company -- they can't afford to match.
Well then you are right to pay off debt first.

-t
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 03:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
So what is everybody's strategy?
Buy now. This is a wonderful buying opportunity. Just ask the Middle East oil types and China!
He can be fixed -- you can't.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 04:00 PM
 
The crazy deals were mostly gone before noon. There are still a few decent bargains out there but the fire sale is over. The average trader has become too damned wily.
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Jan 22, 2008, 04:00 PM
 
I'm buying.

Time.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 04:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The crazy deals were mostly gone before noon. There are still a few decent bargains out there but the fire sale is over. The average trader has become too damned wily.
I made the mistake of going in late this morning. All the best deals were being snapped up while I was in the car.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 04:09 PM
 
Guys, you are cute.

Do you relly think you just picked the bottom ?

-t
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Guys, you are cute.
Thanks.

Do you relly think you just picked the bottom ?
I pick my bottom every day.

Seriously though, there's every chance that of the stocks we bought, some haven't hit bottom yet. OTOH, there is a possibility that they have.

We're all just guessing of course. We do know though is that the dealz today are way better than they were last week.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 04:22 PM
 
@ Don Pickett

That indeed has the ring of truth to it. I do think that you're discounting
a little too much the positive aspects of a gold standard and also missed
slightly in not recognizing that most or allot of the problems that were
seen after the Civil War were at least severely intensified by the very
fractioning of the monetary unit that hard backing is meant to prevent.
(see: greenbacks )

I don't think a gold standard would remove Bush or other warts, but if
reestablished would likely tend to normalize Washingtons' spending
policies and hopefully also reduce our lust for war. By it's nature it does
tend to keep inflation in check as well.

Gold, or any acceptable market commodity money, is required to preserve
liberty. Monopoly control by government of a system that creates fiat money
out of thin air guarantees the loss of liberty. No matter how well-intended our
militarism is portrayed, or how happily the promises of wonderful programs for
the poor are promoted, inflating the money supply to pay these bills makes
government bigger. Empires always fail, and expenses always exceed projections.
Harmful intended or unintended consequences of an overly fractioned monetary
unit is more often the rule, not the exception and the beneficiaries are rarely
the poor or middle classes. No matter the reasons for fractioning the unit (aka:
inflating the system) it always means higher taxes, inflation, and debt. Whether
it’s the extraction of wealth from the productive economy, the distortion of the
market by interest rate manipulation, or spending for war and etc., it can’t
happen without infringing upon personal liberty. And that's what I have come
to be most concerned about in my life.

Hehehe, I better stop. I've now skewed from hard currency as a stabilizing
agent to some degree or another to the affects of inflation and a fiat system
on individual liberties.

Anyway I think we're both smart enough to see each other's points and consider
them for what they're worth. I appreciate the discussion - I love this stuff.
( Last edited by Tesselator; Jan 22, 2008 at 04:31 PM. )
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 04:28 PM
 
Gold doesn't necessarily have the inherent value that many think it does. It is of note that many countries are slowly liquidating their gold reserves. It's just a metal after all.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 04:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
I don't think a gold standard would remove Bush or other warts, but if
reestablished would likely tend to normalize Washingtons' spending
policies and hopefully also reduce our lust for war. By it's nature it does
tend to keep inflation in check as well.
It doesn't actually keep inflation in check. It merely changes the reasons for inflation (and deflation). In fact, you can get hyperinflation on the gold standard, just like with fiat money.

Gold, or any acceptable market commodity money, is required to preserve
liberty. Monopoly control by government of a system that creates fiat money
out of thin air guarantees the loss of liberty. No matter how well-intended our
militarism is portrayed, or how happily the promises of wonderful programs for
the poor are promoted, inflating the money supply to pay these bills makes
government bigger. Empires always fail, and expenses always exceed projections.
Harmful intended or unintended consequences of an overly fractioned monetary
unit is more often the rule, not the exception and the beneficiaries are rarely
the poor or middle classes. No matter the reasons for fractioning the unit (aka:
inflating the system) it always means higher taxes, inflation, and debt. Whether
it’s the extraction of wealth from the productive economy, the distortion of the
market by interest rate manipulation, or spending for war and etc., it can’t
happen without infringing upon personal liberty. And that's what I have come
to be most concerned about in my life.
Although I agree with your sentiment, I think you are taking a massively multivariate problem and making it univariate. In fact, I think the erosion of our civil rights has very little to do with monetary policy. Many forces seek to erode civil rights, from governmental leaders who think they know better to citizens groups who push their issue to voter and citizen apathy.

I will somewhat agree with you, though. IMO one thing which steadily erodes our civil rights and liberties is the nexus of corporate greed and governmental power. This has nothing to do with our money standard, as the last time things were this bad was the late 1800s and early 1900s, before the birth of the modern union movement which reigned in corporate power.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 04:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I'm so insanely happy now, picked up 150 shares of AAPL at 150.74. It's like finding money on the sidewalk!
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Do you relly think you just picked the bottom ?
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Seriously though, there's every chance that of the stocks we bought, some haven't hit bottom yet. OTOH, there is a possibility that they have.

We're all just guessing of course. We do know though is that the dealz today are way better than they were last week.
Apple Shares Go Sour - News & Analysis - Hardware - AAPL

Apple (AAPL - Cramer's Take - Stockpickr) blew past expectations for the first quarter but guided Wall Street lower with a weak second-quarter forecast.
Shares of Apple plunged more than 11% in after-hours trading to $137.65 - a four-month low.

Excluding charges, Apple posted a first-quarter profit was $1.58 billion, or $1.76 a share, compared with profit of $1 billion, or $1.14 a share the year-before.

Apple reported revenue of $9.6 billion, compared to revenue of $7.1 billion a year ago. Analysts polled by Thomson Financial were expecting earnings before items of of $1.62 a share on revenue of $9.46 billion.

For the second quarter of fiscal 2008, Apple guided revenue of $6.8 billion and earnings of 94 cents a share. Analysts were expecting revenue of $6.98 billion and EPS of $1.09.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 04:56 PM
 


Dec 28: $ 200
Jan 22: $ 140 (aftermarket)

DROP OF 30%

-t
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 06:03 PM
 
Don Pickett Wrote:
It doesn't actually keep inflation in check. It merely changes the reasons for inflation (and deflation). In fact, you can get hyperinflation on the gold standard, just like with fiat money.


Do you know of any examples?



Although I agree with your sentiment, I think you are taking a massively multivariate problem and making it univariate.

Yeah, in making a point this often happens.



I think the erosion of our civil rights has very little to do with monetary policy.

Disagree.



Many forces seek to erode civil rights, from governmental leaders who think they know better to citizens groups who push their issue to voter and citizen apathy.

Agree!


I will somewhat agree with you, though. IMO one thing which steadily erodes our civil rights and liberties is the nexus of corporate greed and governmental power. This has nothing to do with our money standard, as the last time things were this bad was the late 1800s and early 1900s, before the birth of the modern union movement which reigned in corporate power.

Mussolini fascism? Yeah and we're at it again too. Same thing - different
century. Public memory is way way way too short.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 06:13 PM
 
Wait - are you equating the birth of the modern union movement with Mussolini fascism?

Or are you saying that Mussolini fascism was when things were this bad, before the birth of the modern union movement?

Because AFAIK, the birth of unions pre-dated Mussolini by some.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 06:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Apple Shares Go Sour - News & Analysis - Hardware - AAPL

Apple (AAPL - Cramer's Take - Stockpickr) blew past expectations for the first quarter but guided Wall Street lower with a weak second-quarter forecast.
Shares of Apple plunged more than 11% in after-hours trading to $137.65 - a four-month low.

Excluding charges, Apple posted a first-quarter profit was $1.58 billion, or $1.76 a share, compared with profit of $1 billion, or $1.14 a share the year-before.

Apple reported revenue of $9.6 billion, compared to revenue of $7.1 billion a year ago. Analysts polled by Thomson Financial were expecting earnings before items of of $1.62 a share on revenue of $9.46 billion.

For the second quarter of fiscal 2008, Apple guided revenue of $6.8 billion and earnings of 94 cents a share. Analysts were expecting revenue of $6.98 billion and EPS of $1.09.
I know, it's amazing! I bought 100 more at $140 and I'm getting 300 more shares if it hits 130.

<--- doing somersaults
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Jan 22, 2008, 07:01 PM
 
Any fool that can scrape together $1000.00 cash needs to plunk it all down on AAPL at exactly 8 AM tomorrow.

BUY! BUY! BUY!

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 07:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Tesselator View Post
Do you know of any examples?
Off the top of my head, the Gold Rush in the U.S. in the 1840s an 1850s produced enormous inflation, as the supply of gold suddenly increased. There are other international examples, but I don't have them at my fingertips at the moment.

Mussolini fascism? Yeah and we're at it again too. Same thing - different century. Public memory is way way way too short.
Mussolini's a good point, and one I didn't think of, but I was thinking of the U.S. in the period leading up to the Depression. There was massive, widespread corruption in the legal system, largely fed by the fact that the Robber Barons were able to buy politicians left and right.
The era of anthropomorphizing hardware is over.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 07:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
Mussolini's a good point, and one I didn't think of, but I was thinking of the U.S. in the period leading up to the Depression. There was massive, widespread corruption in the legal system, largely fed by the fact that the Robber Barons were able to buy politicians left and right.
It's still the same today. Big Oil owns the Right and trial lawyers own the Left.
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Jan 22, 2008, 07:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I know, it's amazing! I bought 100 more at $140 and I'm getting 300 more shares if it hits 130.

<--- doing somersaults
That is a lot of spare change laying around.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 08:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
Wait - are you equating the birth of the modern union movement with Mussolini fascism?

Or are you saying that Mussolini fascism was when things were this bad, before the birth of the modern union movement?

Because AFAIK, the birth of unions pre-dated Mussolini by some.
The later. I don't really know much about unions but assume they came at
different times and in different ways for various different cultures.
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 08:53 PM
 
Don Pickett Wrote:
Off the top of my head, the Gold Rush in the U.S. in the 1840s an 1850s produced enormous inflation, as the supply of gold suddenly increased. There are other international examples, but I don't have them at my fingertips at the moment.


Hmm, I thought that was more of a price gouging thing and took place only
in a few mining towns? I'll have to reread about that now... See how you are?!?!?




Mussolini's a good point, and one I didn't think of, but I was thinking of the U.S. in the period leading up to the Depression. There was massive, widespread corruption in the legal system, largely fed by the fact that the Robber Barons were able to buy politicians left and right.

Wow, nothing has changed!?! <--It's a smiley in spite of the fact that it's
true.




======================================
EDIT:
Anyway I'm more interested in the relationship
between our economy and liberty like as seen in this article:
Remarks on Violent Radicalization & Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act, HR 1955 by Ron Paul
The relations as you say, may not be direct or directly obvious
but the more I read and study the more it seems that they are.
( Last edited by Tesselator; Jan 22, 2008 at 10:17 PM. )
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 09:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by torsoboy View Post
That is a lot of spare change laying around.
Well, it's not exactly "laying around", it's in my main investment account.
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Jan 22, 2008, 09:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Well, it's not exactly "laying around", it's in my main investment account.
So how do you purchase your apple stock? Through a stock trading website, or through a broker? If a website, which one? (dangit, now I am getting interested in buying the stuff...)
     
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Jan 22, 2008, 09:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by torsoboy View Post
So how do you purchase your apple stock? Through a stock trading website, or through a broker? If a website, which one? (dangit, now I am getting interested in buying the stuff...)
I switched all my trading over to TD Ameritrade. They have a very robust system and good extended-hours trading. Their pricing is decent too.

Online Trading - TD AMERITRADE - Online Stock Trading and Investing
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Jan 22, 2008, 10:11 PM
 
Well, I'm certainly glad that I didn't sell out of any of my other positions to fund the purchase of more AAPL before the end of the day.

I'd think twice before jumping in tomorrow guys. AAPL is RIMM'ing.
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Jan 22, 2008, 11:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by chris v View Post
Any fool that can scrape together $1000.00 cash needs to plunk it all down on AAPL at exactly 8 AM tomorrow.

BUY! BUY! BUY!
You are correct! There are other "values" out there as well. I'm not sweating it at all, I bought AAPL at $83.
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Jan 23, 2008, 01:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
AAPL is RIMM'ing.
What?
     
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Jan 23, 2008, 04:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by badidea View Post
I lost about 23%...so far...
...and at the end of the day I actually had a plus of 2% since they jumped back + 25% during the day!

     
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Jan 23, 2008, 07:19 AM
 
Yup, I thought the sky was supposed to fall?

FUD.
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Jan 23, 2008, 07:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead View Post
Yup, I thought the sky was supposed to fall?

FUD.
The drop would have been much larger, had there not been a large interest rate cut, announced a week before it was supposed to be announced.

The US got a bye this time around, because of Dr. King.
     
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Jan 23, 2008, 08:11 AM
 
You mean the cut that everyone said was too little too late?

Just like politics and the media controlling those opinions, so it does with the market.
( Last edited by RAILhead; Jan 23, 2008 at 10:19 AM. Reason: bda tipign)
"Everything's so clear to me now: I'm the keeper of the cheese and you're the lemon merchant. Get it? And he knows it.
That's why he's gonna kill us. So we got to beat it. Yeah. Before he let's loose the marmosets on us."
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Jan 23, 2008, 09:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by RAILhead View Post
You meant he cute that everyone said was too little too late?
I don't understand.

Just like politics and the media controlling those opinions, so it does with the market.
Perhaps. But the point of the short-term market is that it's a measure of investor opinion, and not necessarily a measure of basic economic fundamentals.

The opinion by average and not-so-average corporate investors was that a 0.75% emergency rate cut was a nice shot in the arm. Sure, there was some panic selling early on, but it was interesting to note that Canada and Europe reacted relatively positively to this relatively quickly... and then the US investors followed suit a few hours later.

It probably IS too little too late, but it's certainly better than nothing, and I think that is reflected in the Dow Jones opinion for Jan. 22.
     
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Jan 23, 2008, 10:26 AM
 
Apple's mostly flat after the after-hours sell-off. I think 135-136 is a good jumping-in point, still. Wish I had some cash.

When a true genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift.
     
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Jan 23, 2008, 10:44 AM
 
Stock market will continue to tank till sometime in February.

Setting AAPL buy price at $125.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Mac Elite
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Jan 23, 2008, 11:28 AM
 
I wonder if AAPL will climb back up to $~200ish or if it's going to stay in the lower $100's for a while now... I'm debating whether to hop back in or not... hmm...
     
Eug
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Jan 23, 2008, 11:45 AM
 
Down to about $130 now.
     
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Jan 23, 2008, 11:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Down to about $130 now.
Yup, shows up $130.99 for me. Set buy price to $125.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Mac Elite
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Jan 23, 2008, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Does your employer not pay any 401k match ?

If he does, you're throwing money out the window not taking that.

-t
Also depending on your tax bracket and your debt interest rates, you may want to consider that the contributions are "before tax". That alone makes me max my 401k.
     
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Jan 23, 2008, 12:20 PM
 
AAPL down to $129
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Addicted to MacNN
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Jan 23, 2008, 12:26 PM
 
AAPL down to $128. Anyone think AAPL will hit $125 today?
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Arizona
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Jan 23, 2008, 12:26 PM
 
I'm out. Wish I'd gotten out at $200. But better to be out now than at $100.

It'll ride back up eventually. But I'm pretty sure that today's market behavior is a pretty good indication that the rate cut only stopped a crash from happening yesterday. It did not build any investor confidence for the short time.

So the selling will continue. And AAPL cannot and never does battle back up during bad days for the market. It's too susceptible to market emotion.
I like chicken
I like liver
Meow Mix, Meow Mix
Please de-liv-er
     
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Jan 23, 2008, 12:33 PM
 
Got 300 more shares at 129.75, I'm stoked.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Eug
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Jan 23, 2008, 12:34 PM
 
Bah. I knew I should have shorted it at $200. However, I'm too chicken to deal with shorts.

BTW, Shaddim. So you've bought what, 500 shares over the last day?!? That's a lot of fruit.

Anyways, Piper Jaffray seems to agree with you. iPodNN | Piper: Apple a 'buy' despite stock slide
( Last edited by Eug; Jan 23, 2008 at 12:41 PM. )
     
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Jan 23, 2008, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Got 300 more shares at 129.75, I'm stoked.
Dude, why don't you listen to me and set the buy price at $125. It's at $127 now. It just might hit $125 today.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
 
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