[besson3c]

YouTube - John Scofield ~The Low Road~


The constant intense focus, drive, ability to develop and build this solo, passion, amazing time and a sense of groove, creative and seamless use of effects, a lot of chops and understanding of music, and highly sophisticated musical vocabulary in this guitar solo is just unbelievable. Add on an absolutely awesome veteran bass player who has played and toured for years, and an extremely young and talented high energy drum player, and this is made even better. This little trio puts out an insane amount of energy and sound, really listens and plays with each other as one, and sounds great even though the sound quality in this YouTube video is not ideal.

Let me know what you think!

[Doofy]

Man that was boring. This is what old people listen to when they know they're going to die soon, isn't it?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Man that was boring. This is what old people listen to when they know they're going to die soon, isn't it?

No, it's for people that like a little intellect and focus in their jazz/funk/rock rather than just unfocused raging repetition and a bunch of guys who can't play their instruments

[Dakar the Fourth]

Well, the first reply was what I expected, by who I expected -- and I didn't even read the or watch the first post.
Have I been here too long?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Man that was boring. This is what old people listen to when they know they're going to die soon, isn't it?

No, those listen to recent Sting and Clapton's Pilgrim album.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by analogika 

No, those listen to recent Sting and Clapton's Pilgrim album.

Yes, that's what I said.

[Dakar the Fourth]

James Taylor has to be in there somewhere.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

No, it's for people that like a little intellect and focus in their jazz/funk/rock rather than just unfocused raging repetition and a bunch of guys who can't play their instruments

That's what these guys are for.

[RAILhead]

Holy crap, that was horrible. Someone needs to take all his effects away from him and then come bleach my ears.

[analogika]

Every time I see or hear something Scofield's done recently, I realize that the only reason I can deal with it is that it sounds like the stuff he did with Medeski Martin & Wood - except not as good.

So I go off and listen to Medeski Martin & Wood records...


Oh, and even if you think Scofield is the shiznit, the WORST way to try and turn somebody else on to him is to take a complete crap mobile phone recording of him playing some live gig in some hall somewhere, and then explain to whoever clicks on the link that your point is about solo development.


*BZZZZZZZZT!*

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

That's what these guys are for.

Better than a lot of modern rock I've heard, definitely... I grew really bored of the minor pentatonic response to the "Shock" chorus though after the third or fourth time. I also grew tired of hearing the chorus repeated over and over again too.

[analogika]

Yes graduated from nerve-wracking virtuoso noodling to straight-up pop music in the early 80s.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Every time I see or hear something Scofield's done recently, I realize that the only reason I can deal with it is that it sounds like the stuff he did with Medeski Martin & Wood - except not as good.

So I go off and listen to Medeski Martin & Wood records...


Oh, and even if you think Scofield is the shiznit, the WORST way to try and turn somebody else on to him is to take a complete crap mobile phone recording of him playing some live gig in some hall somewhere, and then explain to whoever clicks on the link that your point is about solo development.


*BZZZZZZZZT!*

It's too bad there isn't a legal way for us to share tracks off of albums and make them easily available, huh?

MMW are cool, but they're going for more of the sonic soundscape experience type of thing than the improvisational approach of Scofield. I'm a jazz musician, so I tend to gravitate more in this direction.

[Doofy]

Really, I'm not just being a bazzer for the sake of it but that was bloody awful. First time I've heard Scofield but I'm aware of him because he's an Ibanez endorsee (and what with my being a 20-year-odd Ibanez player).

But really. I sound better than that with a cat nudging my right elbow (because I haven't fed it)... ...before I've warmed up... ...and after my keys player's 3-year-old has been "tweaking" my gear settings. And I'm crap at guitar.

Thoroughly unimpressed. I bet most serious guitarists on the NN (RAIL, Kev) could blow this guy into the weeds with both sound and technique.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

It's too bad there isn't a legal way for us to share tracks off of albums and make them easily available, huh?

bt.etree.org | Community Tracker

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Really, I'm not just being a bazzer for the sake of it but that was bloody awful. First time I've heard Scofield but I'm aware of him because he's an Ibanez endorsee (and what with my being a 20-year-odd Ibanez player).

But really. I sound better than that with a cat nudging my right elbow (because I haven't fed it)... ...before I've warmed up... ...and after my keys player's 3-year-old has been "tweaking" my gear settings. And I'm crap at guitar.

Thoroughly unimpressed. I bet most serious guitarists on the NN (RAIL, Kev) could blow this guy into the weeds with both sound and technique.

Heheh... no.

Scofield, Metheny, and Bill Frisell are considered the monster modern jazz guitarists in the world today.

Scofield has played with Miles Davis, Billy Cobham, Joe Henderson, Jack DeJohnette, Tony Williams, Jim Hall, Ron Carter, Herbie Hancock, Joe Henderson, Dave Holland and more...

Every album and project he has played on has sounded different. You need to listen to a *lot* more than this one song to establish an informed opinion, and it would also help if you understood at least a little bit about jazz.

Here is a clip of Scofield playing at a clinic with a pickup band and no guitar effects in a jazz group.

YouTube - John Scofield - There Is No Greater Love

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Thoroughly unimpressed. I bet most serious guitarists on the NN (RAIL, Kev) could blow this guy into the weeds with both sound and technique.

To be fair, it's jazz, and thus, about neither: scales, scales, scales.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by analogika 

No, those listen to recent Sting and Clapton's Pilgrim album.

*Shaddim hides his Sting and Clapton albums*

Those stupid, old farts!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by analogika 

To be fair, it's jazz, and thus, about neither: scales, scales, scales.

Saying jazz is all about scales is like saying that a car is all about its radiator.

[besson3c]

If you need better sound quality, about as good as I can do with YouTube is his appearance on the Tonight Show with John Mayer:

YouTube - John Mayer+John Scofield-I Don't Need No Doctor

[analogika]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Saying jazz is all about scales is like saying that a car is all about its radiator.

Car analogies suck.

But I'd say it's like saying a car is all about its engine.

Plenty of people would agree, and they'd be right.

They'd also be completely wrong, depending.

(I've met some weeeeiird jazz "musicians".)

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Car analogies suck.

But I'd say it's like saying a car is all about its engine.

Plenty of people would agree, and they'd be right.

They'd also be completely wrong, depending.

(I've met some weeeeiird jazz "musicians".)

Scales are simply a theoretical component of the music that countless of great (and legendary) jazz musicians have never even learned on a theoretical level, or don't hold in high regard. Many jazz pedagogues teach the internalization of harmonic structures and the consonant and dissident notes that make up a chord by arpegiating chords, learning patterns and guide tone lines either in addition to or in place of scales. A scale is simply a "pool" of notes that sound consonant against a chord, but most people learn them by starting on the same note each time, which is quite limiting. Therefore, some people teach scales more like people think of modes of the major scale as well (dorian, mixolydian, lydian, etc.)

My point is that there is *many* ways to teach and learn jazz. I could list a few successful methods if you care..

However, like I said, Chet Baker didn't know a single thing about theory. Miles dropped out of Julliard. Saying that jazz is all about scales is very much wrong (since you don't like my radiator analogy).


I suppose I would fit your weird jazz musician mold pretty well, huh?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

A scale is simply a "pool" of notes that sound consonant against a chord

Ermm, Bess, a chord is simply a bunch of notes from a scale played at the same time.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Ermm, Bess, a chord is simply a bunch of notes from a scale played at the same time.

Doofy, my advice: I don't mean to sound cocky, but I've spent a good part of my life studying jazz. I know more than you, okay? You will not look good challenging me, just as I wouldn't look good challenging you on sound engineering stuff.

How does what you've said here contradict what I've said anyway?

Still, since you went there...

There are often multiple scales that work over a given chord, and scales that don't really have a direct connection to a chord. The "Blues" scale, for instance, is a minor pentatonic scale with an added #4/#11. You can say that it is derived from a minor chord, but so is the dorian scale, the melodic and harmonic minor scales, etc. Also, you can play the Blues scale along with more than one chord. It can work with a dominant 7 chord, major chord, and many other chords if approached correctly.

So, the point is that scales and chords are not always related.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Doofy, my advice: I don't mean to sound cocky, but I've spent a good part of my life studying jazz. I know more than you, okay? You will not look good challenging me, just as I wouldn't look good challenging you on sound engineering stuff.

Bess, my advice: I don't mean to sound cocky, but one of us works for an internet service provider and one of us is a professional in the music industry. And you might want to check the difference between "producer" and "engineer" some time.

A chord is just a bunch of notes from a scale. Period. Your assertion that a scale is "simply a pool of notes that sound consonant against a chord" in response to analogika is arse about face. Like most jazzers, you try and add some mystique to the whole process in some misguided, pretentious attempt to be cool when in fact there really isn't any - there's nothing beyond intervals and time (unless we count dynamics and timbre, of course - but that's a whole different ball game).

You asked us to let you know what we think of the original vid. Well, it's a fecking cacophony. Like most jazz. There ya go.

[besson3c]

Okay, not going to get much out of talking to Doofy here... He's gone into his unreasonable blowhard mode. Fair enough.

[Doofy]

Well, I was going to ask you what you saw in jazz in an attempt to genuinely understand what it is that draws you to it.

But you unwittingly answered that question a couple of posts back: It gives you an unfounded sense of pretentious superiority via thinking that you're a member of an elite little club, only the members of which understand music.

Stick with Linux Bess.

[Dakar the Fourth]

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Well, I was going to ask you what you saw in jazz in an attempt to genuinely understand what it is that draws you to it.

But you unwittingly answered that question a couple of posts back: It gives you an unfounded sense of pretentious superiority via thinking that you're a member of an elite little club, only the members of which understand music.

Stick with Linux Bess.

Perhaps your reading my being pretentious into my writing says more about your insecurities than it does mine? The bottom line is, if you want to study jazz, you will come across all of this stuff I've written... In fact, all of what I have written is pretty basic stuff. Your asserting that a chord is a group of notes derived from a scale is about as profound and obvious as my coming to a revelation that you can delete files on your Mac by dragging icons to the trash can. Perhaps you should attempt to understand what I"m trying to say and what context I'm trying to say it in before coming to the conclusion that I"m somehow wrong?

If you wish to remain arrogant and offensive about this, we cannot have this conversation. Do you think we can move on? If so, I'd love to answer your question as to what draws me to jazz.

[RAILhead]

Yeah, I've been playing for over 20 years, half of that spent gigging -- and now I play 3 times a week at church -- and that jazz stuff just doesn't do it for me. That no effects video sounds just like our band screwing and noodling around -- just a quick progression over the foundation note. Meh. And, as a guitar player that plays all styles -- I, too, consider jazz guitar nothing much but scales and modes.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Yeah, I've been playing for over 20 years, half of that spent gigging -- and now I play 3 times a week at church -- and that jazz stuff just doesn't do it for me. That no effects video sounds just like our band screwing and noodling around -- just a quick progression over the foundation note. Meh. And, as a guitar player that plays all styles -- I, too, consider jazz guitar nothing much but scales and modes.

Well, you are right that There is no Greater Love is based on a foundation note (or, using the more established musical vocabulary, a single tonality). The 3 "A" sections are based on Bb major, but the bridge/"B" section is based on G minor, so the form of the tune does modulate.

Look at all of your top studio/session horn players, for instance the guys who played on The Incredibles. You'll find a lot of commercial/jazz and classical background. I'm not saying that Classical and Jazz music is "better" than whatever it is that you play RAILhead, but clearly there is something to it, and something that you perhaps don't grasp.

[RAILhead]

All I'm saying is that I don't like it. As a music listener, I don't like. As a guitarist, I don't like it. You started the thread saying git players would be interested, and this git player isn't because that style does nothing for me. Everyone else's mileage will vary.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Your asserting that a chord is a group of notes derived from a scale is about as profound and obvious as my coming to a revelation that you can delete files on your Mac by dragging icons to the trash can.

And yet, in your haste to browbeat analogika (in an attempt to show how knowledgable you are) you drag the trash can to the file.

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'm not saying that Classical and Jazz music is "better" than whatever it is that you play RAILhead, but clearly there is something to it, and something that you perhaps don't grasp.

There ya go - you just did it again. We all get it Bess - some of us were shitting mixolydians while you were still with the wet nurse - but you're so caught up in your world of pretension that you assume that followers of other musical genres can't possibly know as much about music as jazz people.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

All I'm saying is that I don't like it. As a music listener, I don't like. As a guitarist, I don't like it. You started the thread saying git players would be interested, and this git player isn't because that style does nothing for me. Everyone else's mileage will vary.

Fair enough!

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

All I'm saying is that I don't like it. As a music listener, I don't like. As a guitarist, I don't like it.

No no no RAIL - you don't like it because you don't understand music! It's that simple! If you'd have studied it for half your life you'd get it and like it!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

And yet, in your haste to browbeat analogika (in an attempt to show how knowledgable you are) you drag the trash can to the file.



There ya go - you just did it again. We all get it Bess - some of us were shitting mixolydians while you were still with the wet nurse - but you're so caught up in your world of pretension that you assume that followers of other musical genres can't possibly know as much about music as jazz people.

I was correcting analogika with some information which I can back up (and did). If you want to dispute the factual correctness or incorrectness of what I said, feel free, but I'm not interested in having a pissing contest with you, sorry.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No no no RAIL - you don't like it because you don't understand music! It's that simple! If you'd have studied it for half your life you'd get it and like it!

Did a jazz musician abuse you as a child or something? What's with your insecurity?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I was correcting analogika with some information which I can back up (and did). If you want to dispute the factual correctness or incorrectness of what I said, feel free

Analogika said "it's all about scales".
You disagreed.
You were wrong.
Period.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Analogika said "it's all about scales".
You disagreed.
You were wrong.
Period.

And I explained that many jazz musicians don't think of the music in terms of scales, did you get that part? Some jazz musicians might say that scales are too "vertical", and do not help them in their approach to improvising. I listed other approaches that many musicians use instead of thinking in terms of scales.

Perhaps you misunderstood and thought that I was claiming that the music is not comprised of scales? Of course it is, all key centers in any kind of music can be related back to a scale.

[smacintush]

I've only been a guitar player for a short time but I am a guitar lover.(not physical love mind you…not yet at least)

That video just didn't do it for me either.

[Shaddim]

Can't say that Jazz is my thing, I have some Coltrane, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, etc. but mainly just for completeness, I don't listen to them very much.

I am fond of Stochelo Rosenberg, however.

YouTube - Rosenberg Trio - For Sephora

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Can't say that Jazz is my thing, I have some Coltrane, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, etc. but mainly just for completeness, I don't listen to them very much.

I am fond of Stochelo Rosenberg, however.

YouTube - Rosenberg Trio - For Sephora

Very pretty! Thanks for that, I'll be checking more of this guy...

[Shaddim]

May years ago I went to a club and Rosenberg was playing, was quite moving. Ever since then I've had a soft spot for contemporary Gypsy jazz.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

May years ago I went to a club and Rosenberg was playing, was quite moving. Ever since then I've had a soft spot for contemporary Gypsy jazz.

Are you into Klezmer too?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

And I explained that many jazz musicians don't think of the music in terms of scales, did you get that part? Some jazz musicians might say that scales are too "vertical", and do not help them in their approach to improvising. I listed other approaches that many musicians use instead of thinking in terms of scales.

No Bess, you stated that phrase as a fact, separate from any list of approaches that musicians use.

And seriously mate - to anyone even remotely on the edges of the virtuoso rock guitar scene, this Scofield fella sounds like he's just taking a long time tuning up.

Anyways, I'm getting bored of this now. And I'm drunk. So we'll leave it at that.

[Shaddim]

Oh yeah, I'm quite a Andy Statman fan.

[LegendaryPinkOx]

Naseer Shamma

Chords? Scales? I think you all forget that sound is a continuous spectrum that can be broken infinitely. Any REAL musician can play in semi-tones

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No Bess, you stated that phrase as a fact, separate from any list of approaches that musicians use.

And seriously mate - to anyone even remotely on the edges of the virtuoso rock guitar scene, this Scofield fella sounds like he's just taking a long time tuning up.

Anyways, I'm getting bored of this now. And I'm drunk. So we'll leave it at that.

He's not a rock guitarist, he's a jazz guitarist that plays in a multitude of different styles bringing his improvisational approach to the mix. I would love to get into some jazz appreciation for you and anybody else here that might be interested though. When I first starting listening to jazz, there was a lot of stuff that I didn't like then that I absolutely love now. There are musicians who I don't like as much now that I adored before.

I believe that all good musicians are on a path and trying to learn as much as they can, experiment with new sounds, reaching, growing, etc. Sometimes it sounds politically incorrect to call certain free forms of jazz or 20th century classical as anything but "crap", and perhaps some of it is not really a sincere form of expression by that musician/band, but other times music is completely changed for the better from these sorts of experiments. Some of the best jazz records I know of were produced when they band was just starting to "get it", but it was still a reach and exciting for them at the time.

I think that even if you yourself aren't a musician (and this is addressed to anybody reading this), if you are interested in music it is still worth challenging yourself and your own tastes, and learning as much as you can. Don't be so quick to dismiss jazz or classical music, there is literally decades of it out there (centuries, in the case of classical).

Actually, to be honest, I don't explore other kinds of music as much as I should simply because I have a pretty insatiable appetite for jazz and classical, but I'd like to change that.

[analogika]

Wow - I see you all had fun in here while I was off making some two-chord music.

What's odd is that besson didn't get that I was *agreeing* with him, whilst correcting his car analogy to something that ALSO explained why everybody who would DISagree with him is ALSO CORRECT.

*whoosh*

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by LegendaryPinkOx 

Naseer Shamma

Chords? Scales? I think you all forget that sound is a continuous spectrum that can be broken infinitely. Any REAL musician can play in semi-tones

This is very pretty too! It's actually quite modal, it doesn't sound atonal to me at all.