[The Godfather]

An if so, has your kid/you been able to crack through the draconian measure?

I just want to know if, should I install it, my unborn children would be safe from net nastiness.

[peeb]

Your unborn children will never be safe from net nastiness. Get over it, and educate them when the time comes.

[Tesselator]

I have to agree with peeb. The very best "Parental Control" for the net is
being there for the kid, providing a good moral base (by example and not
empty lecture, etc.), and trusting them to do the right thing for their own
selves.

I have 4 boys now 13, 16, 20, and 22 and only the oldest is at all into
smut or violence and even then not overly so. Most self-control is pretty
natural. They almost have to be purposely desensitized to the notion that
these things are "OK" or to accept others as friends that are into that. So
they don't usually seek out the bad stuff on their own. I've found the net
is pretty dang good overall and with very few exceptions about asking ages
and not surfing you "accidentally" to places that might be wrong for young
kids.

You can do a heck of allot by setting up their machine or user profile(s)
with correct age information, default search engines like Kids.Yahoo or
scholar.google or whatever's appropriate.

[Oisín]

I have 4 boys now 13, 16, 20, and 22 and only the oldest is at all into smut or violence and even then not overly so.

I have to ask... what exactly do you mean by ‘smut’ and ‘violence’?

I mean... are we talking Internet pr0n and Tekken, or are we talking ****** and Ichi the Killer?

[Peter]

and how do you know what he likes? Its so creepy the idea that my parents would know what I'm into.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Peter 

and how do you know what he likes? Its so creepy the idea that my parents would know what I'm into.

Don’t kid yourself, of course they do.

[pooka]

Riiiiiight. My mother attempted suicide when she saw some of my videos online. Most parents are more oblivious than you can imagine.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by pooka 

Riiiiiight. My mother attempted suicide when she saw some of my videos online. Most parents are more oblivious than you can imagine.

And yet savvier than their kids give them credit for.

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

I have to ask... what exactly do you mean by ‘smut’ and ‘violence’?

I mean... are we talking Internet pr0n and Tekken, or are we talking ****** and Ichi the Killer?

I think the definition is dynamic. It's different for everyone and for various age groups.

But I guess we're talking mostly about inappropriate photographs, art, sounds, and
music that express concepts and actions not suited for children. When I mentioned
inherent self control in the context of violence I was talking about taste and acceptance
of video clips and game selection & playing.

I find that true with my kids anyway. I taught them the principles of freedom, liberty,
love, honesty and integrity and the social dynamics surrounding those principles and
they just responded by developing tastes and preferences that (usually) were nothing
that would cause a parent to worry too much.


--
Peter, I dunno your age but I'm a bit taken back. How could I not know what they're
into? I'm 100% open with them and they with I. I know the first time my two oldest
tried to smoke a ciggy, when they broke their cherries, who with, any little sneaky
stuff they try to pull, etc.. And they know the same info about me. Our lives are
open. I don't snoop on them or anything like that - they come to me with it even
though I usually already know or can guess. They are my blood after all - it's what
family is - or should be IMO.


--
Also I think if parents act oblivious that more often than not it's a conscious choice
to give the kid space to grow up.

[Peter]

I'm 20. I'd be embarrassed enough if my parents some of my MacNN posts, yet alone what I get upto on other sites (and offline for that matter)

[ghporter]

My wife and I used a less high-tech method of parental control. "You can't be online after 9pm." "You can't watch that show." (One TV in the house-that part was pretty easy.) You get the picture. The kid turned out pretty good for all this harsh control.

Yes, he has figured out how to find "interesting" stuff online-and has either reported that "I accidentally clicked on a link to a porn site" or just plain said "oops!" and moved along. I checked his computer-he was telling the truth.

[alex_kac]

Sometimes parental controls are also there just to ensure that the kids get outside and play and not spend 4 hours playing Command and Conquer. We're here in the same room as them and its nice to have that instead of watching the clock and remembering that 15 min here, and 30 min here, for each kid adds up to an hour.

[powerbook867]

My daughter is 7 and we're fortunate to still have complete control. Internet is only when we are in the room with her all the time and TV is only what we allow her to watch (and it's not very much). No TV in the bedroom, no computer in the bedroom, she can play DS in her room, but it always comes back down stairs when she is done. We know all the parents of the children she plays with and they are good people. We kick her out of the house any day it's nice out and she loves being outdoors playing with her buddies..

9:00 is "get you @ss to bed time" We tell her we love her and let her know that it's mommy & daddy time.

I'm sure it will be a challenge as she gets older, but we plan on having a family computer in a public area of the house. TV will still be limited to what we allow her to watch.

I'm sure there will be challenges, but we talk to her a lot, encourage her to continue reading and give her fun time in controlled doses...

She doesn't play my PS3...yet...

Wish there was a class I could take for this, but unfortunately, it's all live and learn.

[goMac]

The parental controls on 10.4 are easy to hack and entirely worthless. They're fixed on 10.5.

[moonmonkey]

I really don't see what the problem is with letting kids on the internet.
Does anyone here have an example of something bad happening?

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

I really don't see what the problem is with letting kids on the internet.
Does anyone here have an example of something bad happening?

They can see naked people there.

[Chuckit]

I saw a naked person on the Internet. It's true.

Er, and of course there are lots of stories of kids getting molested or dying because they weren't cautious enough. Though I think getting your panties in a wad over that isn't really productive, because that sort of thing can happen to kids any time a parent isn't paying enough attention — the Internet is hardly the biggest vector.

[moonmonkey]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

They can see naked people there.

So buy a keyboard cover, problem solved.

[cjrivera]

Originally Posted by moonmonkey 

I really don't see what the problem is with letting kids on the internet.
Does anyone here have an example of something bad happening?

Well, they could get spend all day in this forum, like us...
... that's pretty scary, isn't it?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

They can see naked people there.

My son has had access to anatomy texts, art books and some of the best naked glamor pictures ever done (Playboy magazine) since he could move around independently. We have actively NOT tried to keep him from seeing "naked." The result is that he's not freaked out by nudity and isn't stuck in his room surfing for porn all the time. He's probably seen a bit of it, found it boring, and moved along. It's sort of like demystifying alcohol-if a person gets a chance to see how it affects them in a controlled environment that doesn't include "let's get wasted" as its primary focus, that person is far less likely to see alcohol as something to overindulge in.

[Tesselator]

I think if it's art and anatomy then that applies. But most of the internet
stuff isn't like that at all. It's tease material. Take the example of how
they stud a horse. The horse was never taught to freak out at nudity
either. It just happens to be the nature of most land mammals to get
horny and frustrated when you're shown the pink. Sound and motion
serve only to amplify that. To deny our own nature and instead try to
desensitize a child before those hormones are active or before they are
ready for those emotions would probably not work and would probably
cause some rather unintended consequences or unwanted side affects.

[OreoCookie]

Chances are that children are more computer-savvy that you are. And that many parental controls are either easy to crack or too harsh. Remember that if you use a weak admin password, it's very easy to crack. My father uses my grandmom's first name as a password. My mother uses my uncle's first name. And they all think they're so smart and that nobody would guess them
So even if the parental controls are working flawlessly, they won't do any good if your child knows your admin password

I'm planning on educating my children instead, that's what my parents have done and it has worked quite well.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Tesselator 

I think if it's art and anatomy then that applies. But most of the internet
stuff isn't like that at all. It's tease material. Take the example of how
they stud a horse. The horse was never taught to freak out at nudity
either. It just happens to be the nature of most land mammals to get
horny and frustrated when you're shown the pink. Sound and motion
serve only to amplify that. To deny our own nature and instead try to
desensitize a child before those hormones are active or before they are
ready for those emotions would probably not work and would probably
cause some rather unintended consequences or unwanted side affects.

Desensitizing the "shock value" of nudity is the point, not trying to override the autonomic nervous system. The fact that much of Western society still thinks that breasts are to be hidden because...well just because, is not helpful. It makes seeing breasts a goal simply to be a goal, and screws with things that should be left alone-like breastfeeding. Do not get me started on how idiotic it is that people get offended when they notice a woman breastfeeding (even, or maybe especially when doing so discretely) in public. Talk about screwed up!

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Chances are that children are more computer-savvy that you are. And that many parental controls are either easy to crack or too harsh. Remember that if you use a weak admin password, it's very easy to crack. My father uses my grandmom's first name as a password. My mother uses my uncle's first name. And they all think they're so smart and that nobody would guess them
So even if the parental controls are working flawlessly, they won't do any good if your child knows your admin password

I'm planning on educating my children instead, that's what my parents have done and it has worked quite well.

It doesn't take much to be effective in controlling access to one's computer-just keep that admin password secret for heaven's sake, and don't make it a trivial password to begin with.

Education is indeed the key. We were very careful in explaining to our son that we didn't want to injure his curiosity, but rather protect him from the crud that's available online. If he was 7 or 8 today, we'd be careful to explain how online predators work and that we want to protect him from them as well (though we were still adamant about not revealing real personal data like addresses and phone numbers online even back then).

For him, I think the biggest problem would have been online porn, so we were careful to explain how poorly done most of what could be found online was (yes, we did a little research on this!). Again, it was a matter of eliminating the taboo and shock value.

[analogika]

glenn:

[OreoCookie]

I like your attitude on this, Glenn.

[Oisín]

Yup.

[residentEvil]

*didn't read the entire thread; so if unborn means soon, 3-4 years would be pre-school*

if you have an unborn child, any control you were to install now wouldn't do any good. things change. the internet? 3 or 4 years from now when your child could be using it? doesn't make any sense. or am i missing something? who knows what your technology will be in 3 or 4 years, let alone how to protect it.

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Desensitizing the "shock value" of nudity is the point, ...

Yeah I understood everything you said. But by your logic then if you don't want
him to be gay you'll subject him to gay porn? Heck just pay a couple of guys
from the neighborhood for daily live shows. Then he won't grow up to be gay
and won't be freaked out by homosexuality. I dunno but it doesn't sound like
it'll work to me. Not to mention if you get some snitchy neighbors you'll end
up losing your kid to child services. Either way it just doesn't sound right to
me. My kids aren't prudish about boobs and they didn't need to be desensitized
by throwing playboys at them from an early age. <shrug>

I guess by doing that you'll objectify women to him and make it hard for him
to form a sincere and meaningful relationship with women later on. Not very
fair if you ask me.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Tesselator 

Yeah I understood everything you said. But by your logic then if you don't want
him to be gay you'll subject him to gay porn? Heck just pay a couple of guys
from the neighborhood for daily live shows. Then he won't grow up to be gay
and won't be freaked out by homosexuality. I dunno but it doesn't sound like
it'll work to me. Not to mention if you get some snitchy neighbors you'll end
up losing your kid to child services. Either way it just doesn't sound right to
me. My kids aren't prudish about boobs and they didn't need to be desensitized
by throwing playboys at them from an early age. <shrug>

I guess by doing that you'll objectify women to him and make it hard for him
to form a sincere and meaningful relationship with women later on. Not very
fair if you ask me.

You seem to be confusing nudity with porn/sex, and homosexuality also with porn/sex.

You’re not going to be able to have any influence over whether a child of yours turns out to be gay, so that point is kind of moot; but if you don’t want him to be freaked out by homosexuality, then yes, ‘subjecting’ (or perhaps a less negative word, such as exposing) him to homosexuality as a perfectly normal thing is probably a good way of doing it. Like, by having gay friends and not making a big deal about it. I don’t see where the gay porn comes into the picture.

You won’t lose your kid to child services for answering his questions about sex via old Playboy magazines either.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

You seem to be confusing nudity with porn/sex, and homosexuality also with porn/sex.

You’re not going to be able to have any influence over whether a child of yours turns out to be gay, so that point is kind of moot; but if you don’t want him to be freaked out by homosexuality, then yes, ‘subjecting’ (or perhaps a less negative word, such as exposing) him to homosexuality as a perfectly normal thing is probably a good way of doing it. Like, by having gay friends and not making a big deal about it. I don’t see where the gay porn comes into the picture.

Exactly right. The idea of allowing a kid to see nudity is not to make him never want to be nude, so similarly the idea of exposing a kid to gay people is not to make him not want ot be gay. Trying to help a kid not to freak out when he meets a gay person — which is a good goal, in my opinion — is not the same thing as making sure your kid doesn't turn out to be gay.

Originally Posted by Oisín 

You won’t lose your kid to child services for answering his questions about sex via old Playboy magazines either.

I wouldn't be so sure. If you have a particularly vindictive neighbor, I could see it happening (though of course it really depends on the kid's age).

[Tesselator]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

You seem to be confusing nudity with porn/sex, and homosexuality also with porn/sex.

No, I'm not. He said Playboy and things like that. That's porn... not nudity.
If you read what I said you'd know I said art and anatomy was exclusive to
my point.

[OreoCookie]

Playboy isn't porn, some of the best photographers (the late Herb Ritts, Bettina Rheims) have contributed. I think the real problem is that you equate porn with homosexuality and that both is immoral to you. You fear that through exposure, you will spoil your child. But all you do is increase the pressure to keep it a secret.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Exactly right. The idea of allowing a kid to see nudity is not to make him never want to be nude …

That one had me laughing out loud

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Tesselator 

Yeah I understood everything you said. But by your logic then if you don't want
him to be gay you'll subject him to gay porn? Heck just pay a couple of guys
from the neighborhood for daily live shows. Then he won't grow up to be gay
and won't be freaked out by homosexuality. I dunno but it doesn't sound like
it'll work to me. Not to mention if you get some snitchy neighbors you'll end
up losing your kid to child services. Either way it just doesn't sound right to
me. My kids aren't prudish about boobs and they didn't need to be desensitized
by throwing playboys at them from an early age. <shrug>

I guess by doing that you'll objectify women to him and make it hard for him
to form a sincere and meaningful relationship with women later on. Not very
fair if you ask me.

Um.....no. I have no idea where you got that particular concept, but you're completely wrong. Where you got the idea that Playboy's pictorials are "porn" is beyond me-it's not even as explicit as some of what you'll find in Maxim, which is not considered in the same category as Playboy. Nudity, yes, porn? NO. Not at all the same thing.

[peeb]

'Nudity' is what I like, 'Porn' is what You like.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by peeb 

'Nudity' is what I like, 'Porn' is what You like.

I don't care for Playboy, but I still think that if it's porn, it's extraordinarily softcore. Like, more tame than some of the hot 'n heavy stuff they'd show on The OC on network TV. Very often the pictures are not even particularly sexual.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I don't care for Playboy, but I still think that if it's porn, it's extraordinarily softcore. Like, more tame than some of the hot 'n heavy stuff they'd show on The OC on network TV. Very often the pictures are not even particularly sexual.

Indeed. Playboy goes for the glamor angle, not like Hustler with "junior gynecologist" photos. Classy, wonderfully well photographed, exceedingly well produced magazines are not "porn" of any type.

[hart]

I have 3 kids 12, 9 and 7 and a pack of computers with internet access. Every parental control process I've tried has ended up being a pain in the neck for me. The kids don't have administrative access, largely to keep them from destroying too much but they have full access to the internet. I must know everyone's passwords. And, by virtue of my overall nerd status I continue to be the top dog in this house in computer world so they know they can't pull anything on me. Never mess with the in-house IT.

However, all the computers are in public space. I was also just thinking that the kids are likely to tell on each other for rule breaking so I have built in alarms. Tattling has it's uses.

My worry is that they will come across things that are upsetting to them, not so much that they'll be corrupted. For example, if my oldest was googling "cats" and came across articles or pictures of people torturing or killing cats it would be very upsetting to her. In this respect I'm more concerned with overt violence and cruelty than sexual issues.

I don't freak out at the concept of nudity and I haven't encouraged that in my kids altho I try to instill a socially appropriate sense of personal modesty. At the moment I actually have "The Atlas of Foreshortening" open on my desk which is 300 pages of every possible angle of view of male and female nude bodies. There IS a difference between nudity and porn but dealing with issues of pornography with ones kids is not as simple as creating some kind of impervious firewall that insulates them from reality. You young 'uns may not believe it but back in the old days this stuff was certainly not as easy to get hold of but it WAS there for those who wanted to find it. I'm sure that my kids at some point will come across this stuff one way or another. My job is to help them grow up to be people who don't want to obsess over it.

When I was growing up my parents didn't want to know. They practically threw their hands over their ears and cried "I'm not listening!" for 10 years. In the end I thought that was rather selfish and heartless. They weren't there to guide me when I needed them.

Mostly instilling kids with a sense of respect for others, of understanding exploitation, human dignity, caring, self-respect, all that good stuff is the best medicine here. With this in mind I usually don't allow games with excessive cruelty and violence just for the sake of vicious gross-outs.

I also hope that I set something of an example for them. I told my son last week that while I'm not going to hover over him freaking out over every youTube video with swear words I also don't want to listen to it myself.

[ghporter]

Keeping computers in a public space works well. At one point, we had one computer in a common area-only one computer shared by me, my wife and our son. No way he could get away with anything there. Later we moved up to individual computers for everyone-all wired. Again all in a common area. Since he's in college and living at home he now has a wireless laptop and he uses it in his room alone. But he has years of good habits so I'm fine with him doing that.

[Oisín]

^ Plus, if he’s in college, he’s an adult (Dorm Daze and its ilk notwithstanding), so he should be beyond supervision by now, no? (Depending on how old people are, exactly, when they start college in the US—I’ve never quite been able to figure that out)

[Chuckit]

People normally start college in the US when they are 18.

[ghporter]

My son is 20 right now, and has just completed a dip in the "working in a sucky job for a living" pool. He's going back to school as soon as the next semester starts. We have an arrangement with him: if he's employed and working toward some goal, he can live here for a while longer (when I graduate next year, my wife and I might just move...). But he has to follow house rules, and that includes not getting me any letters from RIAA lawyers or police visits connected to his online habits. Like a lot of young adults who don't have a strong calling, he's not really ready to live on his own. That drive that a calling gives you forces you to make a lot of personal changes, whether the calling is "getting out of the house" or "becoming a skilled neurosurgeon."

[Oisín]

Like a lot of young adults who don't have a strong calling, he's not really ready to live on his own.

Ouch, that hurt.

(I’m a young adult without a calling)

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Ouch, that hurt.

(I’m a young adult without a calling)

Have you considered linguistics? I think you're already there.

[Oisín]

Well, yeah, but that’s the interest itself—I have no idea what I want to do with it (which is what I understand by having a ‘calling’)...

[- - e r i k - -]

Use it to be a grammar nazi on message boards.

[Kerrigan]

You DIDN"t CAPITALIZE teh NAZI's []

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Well, yeah, but that’s the interest itself—I have no idea what I want to do with it (which is what I understand by having a ‘calling’)...

Professional translator. Consultant to authors, screen writers, etc. (the Star Trek folks were always working up new languages (since STII-The Wrath of Khan) and needed them to be at least plausible). Teaching languages to a variety of audiences: teach Danish to English speakers, teach conversational English to Danes, etc. (A friend of mine who is originally from near Copenhagen thought she knew English until she got a job as an au pair in England... You can probably fill in the blanks from there.)

Specializing could get you into things like medical or engineering terminology translation. There is so much bad Greek and Latin in medical English that it's really sad-it's almost all poorly pronounced (you don't even get "Church Latin" pronunciations, just bad Anglicizations of the Latin spellings) and generally people who use it don't have much of a clue of where the roots come from, so they have a really hard time figuring out new words from the ones they already know. There are a LOT of things to use linguistics in. I've been a specialist in a number of different areas, and it seems that "90% of everything is nomenclature" is a valid "law of knowledge." Linguistics is at the heart of nomenclature.

And when I said "most young adults," I had hoped to make it clear that many young adults don't have this issue. Like me. I had a plan, though not a "calling," and while my plan morphed quite a bit over time, I always had at least a mid-term plan. I'm 48 and still don't know "what I want to do when I grow up", but that doesn't mean I don't know what I want to be doing in the next few years (out at least 5-10 years). Heck, I still don't plan on "growing up."

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Professional translator. Consultant to authors, screen writers, etc. (the Star Trek folks were always working up new languages (since STII-The Wrath of Khan) and needed them to be at least plausible). Teaching languages to a variety of audiences: teach Danish to English speakers, teach conversational English to Danes, etc. (A friend of mine who is originally from near Copenhagen thought she knew English until she got a job as an au pair in England... You can probably fill in the blanks from there.)

I probably will end up doing something like that (or some kind of über-geeky linguistic research or something)—but to me, that’s kind of a fallback, kind of ‘meh’. I’ve yet to discover any line of work that really makes me go, “Ooh, I want to do that!”. Apart from studying, that is.

Specializing could get you into things like medical or engineering terminology translation.

Dear God, no! Been there, done that. I had a job translating medical/pharmacological legislation for a while (from Greek, Portuguese, and Chinese into English, no less—yeah, it wasn’t really a very professional translation agency, just a legislation database company), don’t want to go there again.

And when I said "most young adults," I had hoped to make it clear that many young adults don't have this issue. Like me. I had a plan, though not a "calling," and while my plan morphed quite a bit over time, I always had at least a mid-term plan. I'm 48 and still don't know "what I want to do when I grow up", but that doesn't mean I don't know what I want to be doing in the next few years (out at least 5-10 years). Heck, I still don't plan on "growing up."

Good to know

(I know where I’ll be over the next, say, five years: studying. But after that... heaven knows.)

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

(I know where I’ll be over the next, say, five years: studying. But after that... heaven knows.)

As long as you know WHAT (basically) you'll be studying, you have a plan. As you get into the study programs you'll begin to see more paths that the programs provide, and that sort of helps you get an idea of where to go next.

For example, I got into occupational therapy because I like to help people and (selfishly) I need to see concrete results from my work. But I had no idea how broad the field was when I started. I didn't even know that it was (at least in the U.S., Canada, Australia and the UK) a primarily female profession. Not that that's a really bad thing for me-I do like females quite a lot!. I just knew what I wanted to start doing, not where or in what sort of environment.

In a year, I'll be graduating and getting into the field professionally, and I still don't have a great idea of what my ideal position would be. But I DO know that as this year progresses, we'll be exposed to a lot of examples of settings and environments where OT is provided, which will help us all form an opinion of where we want to start. I'm even scheduled to intern with one of the current "leading figures" in the field this time next year.

Your options develop and flow from your current situation and your study choices-this is true of everything-so don't stress on it. Relax and enjoy learning, and be amazed when your next decision is pretty clear and straightforward.