[mindwaves]

SWAT officer killed after L.A. standoff - Crime & courts - MSNBC.com

This story came off to me as interesting, because this is the first time that I ever heard that a SWAT guy getting killed in the line of duty. It must be really serious deadly work. I always thought that a well-planned attacked combined with adequate body armor and sufficient numbers (i.e. plenty of SWAT members behind him) would be more than sufficient for a nice take down of the guy.

I'm guessing that the guy watched too many Die Hard films and also that one Italian guy movie who barricaded himself in his house with a small girl. However, it did seem a little poorly planned due to the wind blowing the tear gas back to the SWAT members. However, I suppose that wind predictability is unpredicatble sometimes.

[iranfromthezoo]

The LAPD SWAT team is really a great organization. Sad that a five people had to die. I worked with the SWAT team here on a couple of exercises as a SWAT medic and a regular firefighter. It's amazing to see how these guys work but also with the level of protection they have. They always have the disadvantage because the guy they are coming after knows the cops every move while the cops have to search for him while making sure they go home at the end of the day. Sadly, today they failed which royally sucks. My heart goes out to the LAPD SWAT.

Also if you ever get bored go to The Officer Down Memorial Page, Inc.

It's a little known jewel but it's a Officer Down Memorial Page. Our PD looks at that page every day and dedicates the shift to one of those officers. (it's a brotherhood hardly anyone can understand)

[peeb]

Seems like the usual gun-totting ineptitude that US police show on a daily basis to me.

[Sherman Homan]

A salute to the fallen officers.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Seems like the usual gun-totting ineptitude that US police show on a daily basis to me.

Edit: I guess mine stays so I'll just say a SWAT member has an incredibly tough job. I'm certainly not the type of man for that situation.

[mindwaves]

Any further comments not towards the OP (i.e. me) original post will be deleted.

edit: I deleted some posts that were off topic. No offense to some of you guys whose posts were at least somewhat relevant.

[hyteckit]

I use to live about 5 minutes from that area, about 3 miles away.

[OldManMac]

Having once been a reserve police officer, my heart goes out to the families of the dead officers. The majority of them are just like you and I; trying to do a job well, and anyone who says otherwise is just a gullible victim of stereotypes.

[scaught]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Seems like the usual gun-totting ineptitude that US police show on a daily basis to me.

Internet **** talker. Your mom must be proud.

[iranfromthezoo]

To add in other news two police officers were among 5 killed in a city council meeting tonight.
FOXNews.com - Gunman Kills Five at City Council Meeting, Shot Dead by Police - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

I would add a new post but felt it would be to many "officer down" post. Mindwaves please use your judgement on what you would have this post done with.

[lpkmckenna]

Very sad.

[Doofy]

Doof will dedicate a beer to the LAPD SWAT tonight.

[ort888]

That last one happened about 3 miles from my house. The second time in a year that Kirkwood Missouri has been in the national news. (The Micheal Devlin/child abduction thing being the other)

[James L]

Originally Posted by mindwaves 

Any further comments not towards the OP (i.e. me) original post will be deleted.

I can understand you trying to keep this thread focused, but...

Any coward who takes the opportunity to fire insults when a cop gives his life to protect the community he serves is a worthless piece of sh*t. That coward should be ashamed of himself.

I have worked as a paramedic for 11 years now, closely with cops on a daily basis. The one constant I have seen throughout that time is that not one of the people who trash talk the cops could survive a week in their jobs. It is armchair quarterbacking at its finest.

To comment on your original post, it amazes me how few people realize how dangerous policing is, yet public perception is usually that firefighters always work in a dangerous environment. The exact opposite is usually the truth, yet so few realize it.

My sympathies go out to the officers and family members who have suffered a loss today.

[peeb]

Your personal insults aside, you are profoundly wrong to think that simply dying in the line of duty makes someone immune from criticism. That's nonsense.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Your personal insults aside, you are profoundly wrong to think that simply dying in the line of duty makes someone immune from criticism. That's nonsense.

Of course it does, whens the last time a dead person got offended or upset by criticism?

[peeb]

Lol.

[harbinger75]

Hey peeb, what do YOU do for a living? Do you actually have any clue what police, fire and EMS go through EVERY day in EVERY town and city in the world? I'm sure I'm not the only one here who thinks your comments are out of line. It is pretty disrespectful to the people whom you take for granted and assume are inept.

But, to bring it back around here, that was a pretty crappy event and, yes, it WAS the first SWAT officer killed in the line of duty in its 40 year history. Being a former officer myself and current Army MP and firefighter/paramedic, I can say that no matter how well-planned an operation is, it has a great chance of going horribly wrong.

You can't rely on your plans being executed perfectly due to the presence of a plethora of variables, so the possibility for a less-than-perfect outcome is very real.

What surprises me is that in the world's current state, there aren't more officers, firefighters and EMS personnel killed in the line of duty. It seems like the entire world has seen an exponential increase in brain-dead morons who want to harm others and especially those in uniform.

[KeriVit]

Wow. Many people just have no idea. Kudos to James L and the like.

[James L]

Originally Posted by KeriVit 

Wow. Many people just have no idea. Kudos to James L and the like.

Thanks KeriVit. Not necessary, but thanks the same.

To give people a bit of an idea on how the professions stack up...

There were approximately 94 firefighter deaths in the US in 2007. Of those, 23 were directly job related (burned, building collapsed, smoke inhalation, etc). The remaining 71 or so were attributed primarily to heart attacks and cancer(s). There is debate over whether or not heart attacks and cancer(s) can be directly linked to the duties of a firefighter, only because there are so many other factors that come into play (family history, fitness level, genetic dispositions, smoking history, medica history, etc). But those are the stats.

In the US in 2007 181 police officers were killed in the line of duty. By far the predominant causes were car accidents or gunshots, with a sprinkling of bombings, etc. Only 6 of the deaths were attributed to heart attacks, which again could have many contributing causes besides the work aspect. The rest were violent deaths.

So 200% more police officers killed last year than firefighters... almost every one died a violent death.

I don't show these stats to downplay the important work firefighters do, but to emphasis just how dangerous policing is. There is no doubt in my mind that it is the most dangerous of the emergency professions (which is evident in the stats each year), yet it always seems to be the one that gets the least amount of respect.

[James L]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Your personal insults aside, you are profoundly wrong to think that simply dying in the line of duty makes someone immune from criticism. That's nonsense.

Here is a brief history of the man who was killed:

LA Daily News - Slain officer remembered for service, work with youths

Would you go to his house and make your cheap comments to his wife and family?

[KeriVit]

...

[peeb]

Originally Posted by James L 

Here is a brief history of the man who was killed:

LA Daily News - Slain officer remembered for service, work with youths

Would you go to his house and make your cheap comments to his wife and family?

Look, you need to separate your understandable distress at the death of a human being, which is tragic, from the issue I raised, which is about heavy handed inept policing. The fact that a decent human being died is tragic, that doesn't make SWAT teams any less of a bad idea in most cases. You can't justify a practice simply because someone died doing it.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Look, you need to separate your understandable distress at the death of a human being, which is tragic, from the issue I raised, which is about heavy handed inept policing. The fact that a decent human being died is tragic, that doesn't make SWAT teams any less of a bad idea in most cases. You can't justify a practice simply because someone died doing it.

While you may be right, these aren't the right circumstances to bring it up. Whether or not the deceased is deserving of criticism, people are generally not going to be receptive to it at the funeral. All you're doing is pissing people off and blinding them to whatever validity your argument might have.

[peeb]

We're not at a funeral. The OP posted an MSNBC report - this isn't anyone we know.

[nonhuman]

It was a metaphor...

[harbinger75]

Look, you need to separate your understandable distress at the death of a human being, which is tragic, from the issue I raised, which is about heavy handed inept policing. The fact that a decent human being died is tragic, that doesn't make SWAT teams any less of a bad idea in most cases. You can't justify a practice simply because someone died doing it.

I suppose I'm just missing your justification of how police (as a broad generalization) are inept and special operations teams are a bad idea. I could dig up countless articles crediting special operations teams for saving many, many lives and neutralizing very hostile situations. On the other hand, it is true that on some occasions the operations went awry and innocent people were hurt or killed or, like in the event mentioned here, officers have died. I'm just not sure what sort of reality you're living in where teams like this aren't needed.

We live in a very violent time, and believe me, law enforcement and other uniformed professions are, for the most part, reactionary in their training and implementations. Usually it is budgeting which dictates what any particular department decides to change, but the rest of the time it is cause and effect which forces them to update, upgrade and try to meet hostility and threat head-on.

SWAT and similar teams were created to try and quell violent crime. Period. They don't exist to be stormtroopers, enforcers of oppressive law or anything of the like. I take my hat off to all of those team members across the United States and abroad and hope they keep one step ahead of the cavemen who kill, rape and generally give in to the part of their DNA which makes them cruel, heartless wastes.

[subego]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

While you may be right, these aren't the right circumstances to bring it up. Whether or not the deceased is deserving of criticism, people are generally not going to be receptive to it at the funeral. All you're doing is pissing people off and blinding them to whatever validity your argument might have.

Gotta side with peeb on this one. While his original point could have been phrased more constructively (as he did later in the thread), mindwaves didn't set up the topic as such.

When it comes right down to it, the expressions of sympathy really have nothing to do with the actual topic, which is how unusual it is for a SWAT team member to be killed in the line of duty. This thread should be about tactics and equipment. Questioning the need for SWAT teams in the first place falls under that umbrella.

Now, I'm going to disagree with all his positions on equipment and tactics, but peeb's OP wasn't off topic or a derail, just bratty.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by harbinger75 

Hey peeb, what do YOU do for a living?

He's a professional protestor. You know, one of those guys they bus in.

[Peter]

it was this SWAT guys choice to go and do this for a job - he knew the risk. It sucks he died, he didn't deserve it, it's a tough job, they should be paid more - but he knew the risks - as did his family.

[harbinger75]

He's a professional protestor. You know, one of those guys they bus in.

Figures.

it was this SWAT guys choice to go and do this for a job - he knew the risk. It sucks he died, he didn't deserve it, it's a tough job, they should be paid more - but he knew the risks - as did his family.

Absolutely. I can attest to that fact firsthand. But, if nobody makes that choice, where would that leave us?

[Peter]

what if no one made the choice to be a criminal?

[James L]

Originally Posted by Peter 

what if no one made the choice to be a criminal?

But there are, and always will be. Therefore it will always be required that brave people step up to the plate to protect society from the criminals.

SWAT teams are a required element of policing... especially in areas such as LA where the criminals are often armed to the levels of the military. Many people wish they weren't necessary, but welcome to the real world.

And, when a police officer dies trying to protecting society, it is asinine and insanely disrespectful to take that opportunity to trash talk the profession.

The death of anyone who dies protecting others should be treated with the respect it deserves.

[harbinger75]

what if no one made the choice to be a criminal?

If only we could make that happen. It would be all puppy dogs, kitty cats and singing birds...

...oh, and Macs.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by James L 

And, when a police officer dies trying to protecting society, it is asinine and insanely disrespectful to take that opportunity to trash talk the profession.

On the contrary - it's entirely responsible and appropriate to question the structures and practices that lead to his death. It would be dishonorable to try to pass it off by simply saluting the flag and ignoring the issues. We may disagree on our assessment of this, but I don't see how you can claim the issue should not be examined.

[Peter]

I think there are a lot more reasons as to why people "step up" to becoming a police officer. Worse reasons.

[harbinger75]

I think there are a lot more reasons as to why people "step up" to becoming a police officer. Worse reasons.

Similar to any profession on the planet. Everybody has a reason for why they want to become something particular. Some good, some bad and some shady somewhere in between. People become police officers, join the military, etc., for shady, self-serving reasons. There is no profession in the scope of law enforcement or with any generalized power that is exempt from that.

With the presence of some sort of power, there are those who are there to try and harness it for less-than-noble reasons. And, unfortunately, those are the people who give organizations a bad name or a blemish on their service record. Nothing new there.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by peeb 

On the contrary - it's entirely responsible and appropriate to question the structures and practices that lead to his death. It would be dishonorable to try to pass it off by simply saluting the flag and ignoring the issues. We may disagree on our assessment of this, but I don't see how you can claim the issue should not be examined.

It is permissible to question why he died; it's a cheap shot on your part to say what you did, and you can cloak it in any semantics you want, but you can't dance around it with flowery language. Your statement was based on typical stereotyping, and now you're trying to cover your ass with rhetorical bullshit. Be a man and admit that what you said was wrong.

[James L]

Peeb,

The question has been asked.... what do you do for a living?

[peeb]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

It is permissible to question why he died; it's a cheap shot on your part to say what you did, and you can cloak it in any semantics you want, but you can't dance around it with flowery language. Your statement was based on typical stereotyping, and now you're trying to cover your ass with rhetorical bullshit. Be a man and admit that what you said was wrong.

I don't think it was remotely wrong. I stand by what I said.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by peeb 

I stand by what I said.

You're almost as good at backtracking and semantics arguments as Kevin was.

Keep it up, you'll get there soon enough.

[peeb]

How is "I stand by what I said" backtracking?
It's funny to watch you backtrack on the backtracking accusation!

[harbinger75]

I don't think it was remotely wrong. I stand by what I said.

Yet you give no idication or explanation of why you think you're right. But, you are entitled to your opinion, despite how tacky and despicable it is.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by peeb 

How is "I stand by what I said" backtracking?

It isn't, every other post of yours has been since your first.

First you say that the police show daily their gun toting ineptitude. You then go on to 'elaborate' what you 'really meant' in the rest of your posts.

Basically, you made an off color remark, we called you on it and now you are attempting to save face by spinning your own words.

Also, it's redundant to claim "I stand by what I said" since we already know where you stand.

[peeb]

Harbinger - no one asked. I have a hard time understanding why you think that it is despicable and tacky to think that SWAT teams are an over-used and often inappropriate tool that reflects an entirely unhelpful attitude to policing. I do think that, in general (not always) the US police show a level of ineptitude and shoot-first trigger-happiness that is not useful in reducing deaths or crime.
No one on this thread seems capable of hearing that opinion and thinking anything but "A cop died, so you should not question the policing methods, just salute the flag." Of course it is a shame that someone died. I think his death results, in part, from inappropriate policing methods.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by sek929 

It isn't,

Oh, there you go, backtracking again!

Originally Posted by sek929 

every other post of yours has been since your first.

Show me one where I 'backtrack' from my first remark.

Originally Posted by sek929 

First you say that the police show daily their gun toting ineptitude. You then go on to 'elaborate' what you 'really meant' in the rest of your posts.

I meant what I said - there's no backtracking there.

Originally Posted by sek929 

Basically, you made an off color remark,

It was not off color.

Originally Posted by sek929 

we called you on it

You did no such thing - you're back tracking from your backtracking accusation again!

Originally Posted by sek929 

and now you are attempting to save face by spinning your own words.

There's no spinning going on - my words are right here - I back-track from none of them.

Originally Posted by sek929 

Also, it's redundant to claim "I stand by what I said" since we already know where you stand.

Except you seem not too, or you would not accuse me of backtracking.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by peeb 

On the contrary - it's entirely responsible and appropriate to question the structures and practices that lead to his death. It would be dishonorable to try to pass it off by simply saluting the flag and ignoring the issues. We may disagree on our assessment of this, but I don't see how you can claim the issue should not be examined.

Originally Posted by peeb 

Seems like the usual gun-totting ineptitude that US police show on a daily basis to me.

Yeah, you certainly came into this thread with the intention of 'examining' the situation Your first post was a highlight, a stereotypical cliché one-liner that you purposefully meant to incite a desired reaction.

So I can say that "your mother is a slut," but then later on change it to "Your mother may or may not be a slut, we should discuss this in detail."

If you had a slight want to actually discuss anything you wouldn't have posted a snide baseless remark to start out with.

BTW, awesome job at quoting every sentence seperately, your PL skillz are very strong.

[ort888]

peeb, why don't you go and sign up for the police academy and show them how it's done. You'll be able to change the system from the inside.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by sek929 

So I can say that "my mother is a slut," but then later on change it to "My mother may or may not be a slut, we should discuss this in detail."

Well, we could have that discussion - you contention that your mother is a slut may illicit views from other perspectives.

Originally Posted by sek929 

If you had a slight want to actually discuss anything you wouldn't have posted a snide baseless remark to start out with.

Thankfully what I posted was an opinion that was intended to start a discussion.

Originally Posted by sek929 

BTW, awesome job at quoting every sentence seperately, your PL skillz are very strong.

Thnx dood.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by ort888 

peeb, why don't you go and sign up for the police academy and show them how it's done. You'll be able to change the system from the inside.

Well, I'll make the charitable assumption that you actually want a serious answer to this. Two reasons really, 1. I don't think that as a new recruit I would be in a position to make any changes to policing methods, 2. I am so opposed to current methods of operation it is unlikely I would be able to do the job that was asked of me.