[Eug]

You didn't misquote me. I quickly changed it to "six figures" but you caught it.

Actually you can get a pure electric car for less than $15000, but it's completely impractical, because it's limited to 25 mph and 35 mile range.

There are other cars around, but overall I consider electric cars impractical, at least for a primary car, because of the charge time and the range. It would make a good secondary car for city driving alone though.

[OreoCookie]

Aggressive cyclists?
I haven't seen many of those on the road (on trails it's a different story). They're the weakest participants in traffic and usually very careful. I almost got seriously injured last year, because a guy overtook me and then figured out it was too tight. So he slammed the breaks. Fortunately I always wear a helmet.

[CreepDogg]

Yeah, I don't want to get into an electric car debate because it's been done before.

Suffice it to say that for my wife and I, we each need a car, and most of our trips are 50 miles or less in city/suburban driving (with some metro-area highway driving so need to travel at highway speeds).

We would be just fine with one pure electric with maybe a 150 mi range, and one plug-in hybrid that could be used for longer trips. We'd use barely any gas. I think this is doable, and expect we'll see some usable cars in the next 5-10 years. Just hoping my current one lasts that long, because I really don't want to buy another gas-powered car.

I'm not worried about the charge time - of course it's not practical for long trips, but for the way I drive it would work fine. Really no different than my cell phone...

[Eug]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Aggressive cyclists?
I haven't seen many of those on the road (on trails it's a different story).

They're all over the place here. Weaving in and out between cars, not respecting traffic lights. Etc.

[OreoCookie]

I still have a hard time believing this.
If you were talking about people on (motor) bikes, then there'd be no discussion, but neither in Berkeley, nor Japan nor Germany, I've seen an abundance of `aggressive' cyclists. Perhaps because I have always lived in urban areas, don't know … 

[Eug]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I still have a hard time believing this.
If you were talking about people on (motor) bikes, then there'd be no discussion, but neither in Berkeley, nor Japan nor Germany, I've seen an abundance of `aggressive' cyclists. Perhaps because I have always lived in urban areas, don't know …

I live in Toronto, and used to live downtown. Aggressive cyclists are the norm downtown. A large proportion of them are bike couriers though. It's as if they have a death wish. What's worse is when they don't obey the traffic lights and almost get hit, they go ballistic, and sometimes even hit the stopped car with their fist. It's no surprise that many drivers here absolutely hate them.

[Mastrap]

I would say that the exact opposite is true, sorry Eug.

Toronto car drivers have absolutely no consideration for cyclists. At all. The worst I have ever seen, and I live and work downtown, is the occasional jumping of a red light.

If you want to see aggressive cycling then London (UK) would be a good place to start.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I still have a hard time believing this.
If you were talking about people on (motor) bikes, then there'd be no discussion, but neither in Berkeley, nor Japan nor Germany, I've seen an abundance of `aggressive' cyclists. Perhaps because I have always lived in urban areas, don't know … 

You've never seen aggressive bikers in Berkeley? Seriously? I've seen aggressive bikers pulling moronic **** on Grizzly Peak!

[peeb]

Originally Posted by tie 

The evidence suggests that it is about 10x more dangerous than driving, per mile. This is from memory but I think it is right.

I'd love to see evidence for that - frankly I don't believe it.
Is Bicycling Safe? - Raise the Hammer
This article is pretty interesting, if we take the stats at face value, "cycling is more dangerous than driving. Every 1.6 million kilometres (one million kilometres) cycled produces 0.039 cyclist fatalities, compared to 0.016 fatalities for motorists. They're both very low, but the risk for cycling is more than double."
Nowhere near 10 times.
More interesting though, is time spent in a vehicle - "the fatality rate for every million hours spent cycling is 0.26, compared to 0.47 per million driving hours (on-road motorcycling comes in at a whopping 8.80 deaths per million motorcycling hours). That is, riding a motor vehicle has nearly twice the risk of fatality as riding a bike for a given duration."

Plus, it then goes on to look at the ways in which you are decreasing your fatality risk from heart disease etc. I recommend the whole article.

Bicycle Almanac: Bike Safety Statistics
Risk is also mutable. Most cyclists die at night, and there are a lot of easy things to do to put yourself in a lower risk group than 'all cyclists'.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

I would say that the exact opposite is true, sorry Eug.

Perhaps you have seen it, but I saw all the time. (I used to ride downtown for years.) See below.

Toronto car drivers have absolutely no consideration for cyclists. At all. The worst I have ever seen, and I live and work downtown, is the occasional jumping of a red light.

I agree. Toronto car drivers have absolutely no consideration for cyclists. That doesn't mean cyclists are blameless. These aggressive cyclists make other cyclists look bad.

I used to see it all the time, as both I and my GF lived in the downtown core, AND I used to cycle downtown. I don't see it much outside the core though. As a cyclist looking at other cyclists downtown, you gain a new appreciation of just how assholish some cyclists are.

I was always taught to bike defensively. These cyclists don't, and then get pissed off when a driver doesn't see them.

[peeb]

Is Cycling Dangerous? -- The Risk of Bicycle Use -- Accidents, Fatalities, Injuries, and Benefits
This has some interesting stats on why cyclists are killed.

5.1% The bicyclist exited a driveway in front of an on-coming vehicle.
4.3% The bicyclist turned left in front of a passing vehicle.
3.9% The motorist was overtaking the bicyclist, cause of the accident unclear.
2.7% The bicyclist was struck while traveling on the wrong (left) side of the road.
1.4% The bicyclist, on the wrong side, turned right in front of a vehicle.
1.3% The motorist was overtaking the bicyclist and failed to see him.
1.2% The bicyclist lost control and swerved into the path of the vehicle.
.8% The bicyclist made a normal left turn but ignored on-coming traffic.
.6% The motorist lost control of the car and struck the bicyclist.
.5% The motorist struck a play vehicle (big wheel, bike with training wheels).

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Well, 5 minutes from where I work is an expensive area. To get a house that some people in this forum might be used to would cost over $2 million.

I would hazard a guess: San Jose, San Francisco, or New York.

[Dakar the Fourth]

He's in Canada, I believe. Toronto area, specifically.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Is Cycling Dangerous? -- The Risk of Bicycle Use -- Accidents, Fatalities, Injuries, and Benefits
This has some interesting stats on why cyclists are killed.

5.1% The bicyclist exited a driveway in front of an on-coming vehicle.
4.3% The bicyclist turned left in front of a passing vehicle.
3.9% The motorist was overtaking the bicyclist, cause of the accident unclear.
2.7% The bicyclist was struck while traveling on the wrong (left) side of the road.
1.4% The bicyclist, on the wrong side, turned right in front of a vehicle.
1.3% The motorist was overtaking the bicyclist and failed to see him.
1.2% The bicyclist lost control and swerved into the path of the vehicle.
.8% The bicyclist made a normal left turn but ignored on-coming traffic.
.6% The motorist lost control of the car and struck the bicyclist.
.5% The motorist struck a play vehicle (big wheel, bike with training wheels).

That's odd.

I would have thought that one of the most common causes is a car / truck making a right turn, not seeing the bicyclist next to them in the blind spot.

-t

[andi*pandi]

I have a short commute so am not hurting as much as some of you... but I am thinking that this summer I will give riding my bike to work a try. There is a tricky part over the highway and some very steep hills, but it could be a nice way to start the day. The money saved is bonus.

My folks have decided to fly and borrow a car for their summer visit rather than drive.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

That's odd.

I would have thought that one of the most common causes is a car / truck making a right turn, not seeing the bicyclist next to them in the blind spot.

-t

I agree that's strange - with any of these tables the devil is in the detail though - I wonder whether those types of incident tend to be less fatal / low speed? The full study is far more detailed - it looks like that table is an edited summary.
Crash-Type Manual for Bicyclists
http://www.tfhrc.gov/safety/pedbike/ctanbike/24.pdf

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

He's in Canada, I believe. Toronto area, specifically.

Right. Near where I work, $1 million gets you a reasonable mid-sized house, and $2 million gets you a nice recently built big one.

Nice area to ride bikes though. Almost no bike lanes, but relatively low traffic.

[Eug]

Heh. One of the local gas stations had a half price sale on gas, and there was a line up around the block. Recently it's been almost $1.20 per litre. Today it was 68 cents.



One guy says it "only" cost him $70 to fill his Hummer, because of this sale.

[osiris]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Is Cycling Dangerous? -- The Risk of Bicycle Use -- Accidents, Fatalities, Injuries, and Benefits
This has some interesting stats on why cyclists are killed.

5.1% The bicyclist exited a driveway in front of an on-coming vehicle.
4.3% The bicyclist turned left in front of a passing vehicle.
3.9% The motorist was overtaking the bicyclist, cause of the accident unclear.
2.7% The bicyclist was struck while traveling on the wrong (left) side of the road.
1.4% The bicyclist, on the wrong side, turned right in front of a vehicle.
1.3% The motorist was overtaking the bicyclist and failed to see him.
1.2% The bicyclist lost control and swerved into the path of the vehicle.
.8% The bicyclist made a normal left turn but ignored on-coming traffic.
.6% The motorist lost control of the car and struck the bicyclist.
.5% The motorist struck a play vehicle (big wheel, bike with training wheels).

Not to mention the pollution being ingested.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie