[turtle777]

Ok, guys, so I need to vent here.

We just got presented our new approval matrix for Capital Invest orders.
For capital items between $ 400k and $ 1,500k, we now need 21 friggin' signatures.
FYI, company is a $ 40B global industrial company, so quite big.

Here's the list of signatures needed:

Originator
Financial Analyst
Invest Controlling Local
Invest Controlling Division
ESH Local (Environment Safety Health)
Purchasing
Corporate Purchasing
Engineering Manager
Production Manager
Quality Manager
Facility Planning
Central Real Estate Management
Finance Director
Managing Director
Plant Controller
Plant Manager
Central Plant Controller
Central Plant Manager
Business Unit Controller
Business Unit CEO
Division Controller

Is this normal ?
Previously, we had about a quarter of this, but now the new overlords decided to go buckwild.

For half of these sigs, you could use a trained monkey. No way they can add any value by approving dozens of these every day, w/o being involved in any details.

Ridiculous.

-t

[Sherman Homan]

Blazing Saddles:
"We have to protect our phoney baloney jobs here, gentlemen!"

[Dakar the Fourth]

I'm sure Lotus Notes will help streamline this process.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

I'm sure Lotus Notes will help streamline this process.

"Möchten Sie Dokument?"

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

I'm sure Lotus Notes will help streamline this process.

Yes, a process nightmare, coupled with an administrative nightmare = ?

-t

[Atheist]

I knew there was I reason I always worked for companies with less than 50 people.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Yes, a process nightmare, coupled with an administrative nightmare = ?

-t

The Congress?

[besson3c]

I heard that Lotus Notes is actually pretty good?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

I knew there was I reason I always worked for companies with less than 50 people.

Oh, my company is, too.

Less than 50 people with common sense and brains

-t

[design219]

I just ask the boss for some petty cash when the printer is out of paper or the coffee supply is low.

No signatures needed.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by design219 

I just ask the boss for some petty cash when the printer is out of paper or the coffee supply is low.

No signatures needed.

Petty cash ?

We haven't had this in years.

Heck, we don't even have checks anymore.

-t

[mattyb]

Thats gotta be a SOx requirement. Blame Enron, Worldcom and the rest of those greedy f*ckers.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Thats gotta be a SOx requirement. Blame Enron, Worldcom and the rest of those greedy f*ckers.

Well, SOX technically doesn't require you to do or not do certain things, all it asks for is sh!tloads of controls, processes and documentation.

So in reality, some things just become so cumbersome that you might as well stop doing them. Petty cash and cutting checks is one of these things.

-t

[ghporter]

It looks like there is a significant lack of trust and/or autonomy in your company. Not that all of those entities shouldn't be in the loop, but they have to approve it? Of course, maybe they're saying you need these signatures to make sure those offices ARE in the loop, rather than that they approve the spending.

Either way, if it's a hassle, then there's a problem with the process. Or that process addresses some problem involving how money has been spent in the past. Not cool, but very corporate.

Many years ago, the suits in charge of the hospital my wife works at tried to get rich by ripping off Medicare. They got caught. Probably didn't ever have to go to jail. But ever since then, everyone in the hospital has to get annual ethics training. The nurses, the housekeepers, the clerks at admissions and billing, even the chaplains. Of course the suits who were responsible for the unethical behavior are long gone, but as part of the "we're sorry our poo-headed suits tried to rob the government blind" settlement, annual ethics training is required. THAT is corporate thinking.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Well, SOX technically doesn't require you to do or not do certain things, all it asks for is sh!tloads of controls, processes and documentation.

So in reality, some things just become so cumbersome that you might as well stop doing them. Petty cash and cutting checks is one of these things.

-t

From an IT prespective, I'm pretty sure that SOx requires separation of duties i.e. that the same person who actually does some change cannot be the same person that authorizes it. Or that developers do not have access to prod data etc etc.

If this isn't the case, then the company that I used to work for spent 18 months and thousands of man hours for nothing !! - yeah sounds about right.

[alligator]

This is common. I'm dealing with an approval matrix this week as well. There is one category where the approval of six people is necessary. What ever happened to doing business with a handshake?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by alligator 

There is one category where the approval of six people is necessary.

6 people ?

In my wet dreams...

-t

[moonmonkey]

In my opinion it looks like you work for a company who are deliberately managing a procedure into non use.
If this procedure is required for you company to operate affectively then you need a new CEO or there is an ulterior motive.

US companies and the US government are well known for regulating practices into non use, they don't just ban something, they just make it so hard you take the path of least resistance.

Just my opinion

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

From an IT prespective, I'm pretty sure that SOx requires separation of duties i.e. that the same person who actually does some change cannot be the same person that authorizes it. Or that developers do not have access to prod data etc etc.

Yes, it does.

This makes many tasks and processes tedious, especially if you are in a smaller remote location with limited staff.

Originally Posted by mattyb 

If this isn't the case, then the company that I used to work for spent 18 months and thousands of man hours for nothing !! - yeah sounds about right.

A bargain

The main problem with SOX creating red-tape is that people are SO freagin' afraid of SOX that they create processes that double and triple the necessary controls, just to be safe. It's an absolute nightmare.

E.g. I have quite a bit of approval rights, and a lot of approval requests come to me regarding things other users want changed. But if I request a change, it will be forwarded to me for approval as well.
How stupid is this ? When I pointed out that they might as well just process my requests since I will for sure approve my own requests. Noooo way. I still need to approve my oqn requests.

-t

[Dork.]

I'd love to have $400k to spend on capital items, no matter how many signatures it takes.... The lab equipment I need is expensive, but not that expensive!

There's been a story here in Rochester where someone at Kodak was in charge of getting Kodak's property assessments (and, thus their property tax liability) lowered by having regular assessments taken. He cut checks in the low millions to someone else to do the assessments (who never actually did them but lowered the numbers anyway), and took a kickback for the service.

This guy lied to his supervisor at one point, and got his signature for a check by saying others had approved it also. During the trial, the supervisor's reply was:

Asked about a $2 million payment he approved, one that prosecutors have used as an example of the alleged fraud, former Kodak executive James W. O'Brien testified: "In the big scheme of things at Kodak, I hate to say it, it was not a lot of money."

Kodak still has $10B a year in revenue, even if their profitability is a bit suspect....

[alligator]

Good news. I spoke with another guy at work today and got my six levels reduced to ONE! Now that makes for a good Friday!

[turtle777]

What makes a good week for me is that only ONE person quit this week.

-t

[iM@k]

I'll say I know litte to nothing about buying stuff for big companies, but this doesn't sound to odd to me.

We're talking about expenditures ranging from $400,000 to $1,500,000. I don't care how much money the company has. If I'm the company leaders, I want to make sure it's a necessary expense before we hand out that much dough.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by iM@k 

I'll say I know litte to nothing about buying stuff for big companies, but this doesn't sound to odd to me.

We're talking about expenditures ranging from $400,000 to $1,500,000. I don't care how much money the company has. If I'm the company leaders, I want to make sure it's a necessary expense before we hand out that much dough.

That depends on what business you're in.

In industrial manufacturing, you easily spent this for a new production line.

$ 400k is NOT a big amount for a $ 40B company.
Just imagine a $ 5M company asked for signatures from every board member for any purchase order over $ 50. That's what this would be in relation.

-t

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

That depends on what business you're in.

In industrial manufacturing, you easily spent this for a new production line.

$ 400k is NOT a big amount for a $ 40B company.
Just imagine a $ 5M company asked for signatures from every board member for any purchase order over $ 50. That's what this would be in relation.

-t

I'm not sure that's a valid argument. It's not just about percentages. It's about holding people accountable for the money they spend on behalf of the organization, regardless of the amount.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

I'm not sure that's a valid argument. It's not just about percentages. It's about holding people accountable for the money they spend on behalf of the organization, regardless of the amount.

But the problem is, with more signatures, you are not creating any real accountability. Most of the people neither have the expertise nor the information to judge if that's a good investment or not. They just become trained monkeys providing signatures. Look at the list of signatures I posted. This is all about micro-managing and the main intent is to demoralize people so they spend less.

The unintended(?) effect is that we have people quit because they are sick of not getting their projects done. Mind you, these are projects that we have signed contracts with customers. It's not optional or just a "nice to have" thing.

-t

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

The unintended(?) effect is that we have people quit because they are sick of not getting their projects done. Mind you, these are projects that we have signed contracts with customers. It's not optional or just a "nice to have" thing.
-t

We might be talking past each other a bit. I fully understand your frustration with your situation. What I was arguing is that whether it's a $10 million or $10 billion company, they should care just the same about spending $1 million. A million dollars is still a million dollars. Percentage of gross income is irrelevant.