[wallinbl]

US court: Paper money discriminates against blind - May. 20, 2008

That always seemed so ridiculous to me. Other countries have it. We wasted time and money making them fancy colors, but we couldn't change the size slightly to help the blind?

[MacosNerd]

I suppose but cash is quickly becoming irrelevant. I keep almost no cash on hand but instead use my debit card for 95% of my expenditures. I suspect I'm not in the minority either.

[Cipher13]

Wow, I had no idea all US bills were the same size and had no features for the blind to discern. Pretty dodgy.

It's bad enough that Australian bills are simply different sizes - in my opinion they should all have raised markings (whether braille or somesuch).

[peeb]

Cash is far from irrelevant.

[ort888]

They should make cars for the blind that beep to let you know when you're going to hit something.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Cash is far from irrelevant.

But ca$h is.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Cash is far from irrelevant.

Sure it is, I see it all of the time, whether I'm in target, best buy, Dunkin Donuts or filling up my truck with gas. I see people use credit/debit cards instead of cash.

[starman]

Oh, PLEASE don't change the size of the bills. Do something else....braille, whatever, DON'T change the size. That would cause many more problems than it would solve.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by starman 

That would cause many more problems than it would solve.

Like what?

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Like what?

Bill changers, for one thing.

[Mastrap]

That's what I'd like to know too.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Sure it is, I see it all of the time, whether I'm in target, best buy, Dunkin Donuts or filling up my truck with gas. I see people use credit/debit cards instead of cash.

Oh, well then I cave in the face of your compelling and indisputable figures. Certainly card use is increasing, as your exhaustive survey of such salubrious emporia as 'Target, Best Buy and Dunkin Donuts' shows. Cash is still entrenched in many key areas of the US economy, not to mention the rest of the world.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Person Man 

Bill changers, for one thing.

They have to upgrade those stupid things every time the dollar changes anyway. How would this be any different? Every time the dollar changes, all the machines get a sign that says, "This machine does not accept the new X bill" for about a week.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by starman 

Oh, PLEASE don't change the size of the bills. Do something else....braille, whatever, DON'T change the size. That would cause many more problems than it would solve.

Yeah, funny that other countries (e.g. Europe) don't have problems building machines that can distinguish between and process different sizes

-t

[Dakar the Fourth]

Personally, I'm not convinced the blind will even see the difference.

[starman]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Yeah, funny that other countries (e.g. Europe) don't have problems building machines that can distinguish between and process different sizes

-t

But they started off with that. We didn't. Every single bill changer, reader, and even the little strips of paper to organize them will have to change. Every bank, ATM, arcade, etc. will have to be replaced.

And besides, how is the size going to change how the blind can tell what denomination it is unless they have one of each? I realize that when you lose one sense you become better at others, but do you really gain the ability to tell the size of something?

I say stick with Braille.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Oh, well then I cave in the face of your compelling and indisputable figures.

Thank you, I'm glad you've seen the light

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by starman 

But they started off with that. We didn't. Every single bill changer, reader, and even the little strips of paper to organize them will have to change. Every bank, ATM, arcade, etc. will have to be replaced.

But like someone already said, they have to change all those every time the currency changes anyway. They had to change them for the "Oversized Head" bills, and they had to change them again for the "Looks Like It's Been Immersed In Vomit" bills. Even if they leave the new bills the same size and add Braille, you'll still need new machines to read them.

With that said, Braille does seem a lot more user-friendly than having to memorize subtle variations in size.

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

But like someone already said, they have to change all those every time the currency changes anyway. They had to change them for the "Oversized Head" bills, and they had to change them again for the "Looks Like It's Been Immersed In Vomit" bills. Even if they leave the new bills the same size and add Braille, you'll still need new machines to read them.

With that said, Braille does seem a lot more user-friendly than having to memorize subtle variations in size.

But they didn't have to change the physical hardware to accommodate the change in the design of the bill. Changing the size of the bill is an entirely different thing.

[Luca Rescigno]

It might not be that big a deal. They could set the $20 as the baseline size and make the $1, $5 and $10 smaller, so they'd still fit. The only ones larger than our current bills could be t he $50 and $100, which don't get used much anyway.

[starman]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

But they didn't have to change the physical hardware to accommodate the change in the design of the bill. Changing the size of the bill is an entirely different thing.

Exactly.

[wallinbl]

People use bill changing machines? For what? I can't remember the last time I put money into a machine.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno 

They could set the $20 as the baseline size

Give the man a prize.


I also time travel to say...

Originally Posted by Goldfinger 

The bills and coins changing wasn't really an issue when the Euro was introduced

Another good point.

[Goldfinger]

The bills and coins changing wasn't really an issue when the Euro was introduced so I don't see why this would be such a huge problem.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

I suppose but cash is quickly becoming irrelevant. I keep almost no cash on hand but instead use my debit card for 95% of my expenditures. I suspect I'm not in the minority either.

There's a debit card commercial that I laugh at every time I see it. It generally shows some fictional store where literally everyone is using a debit card and things are moving perfectly and then some guy uses cash and everything slows down and everybody groans.

I find its the opposite. Cash transactions are frequently much faster than debit/credit cards because you have to wait for them to authorize. When I'm in line at the deli to get my lunch almost everyone pays cash. You can actually hear people get pissed when some dork whips out a debit card to pay for a $7 transaction and holds everything up.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

People use bill changing machines? For what? I can't remember the last time I put money into a machine.

Not just bill changing machines but vending machines. We have a number of them in our office and they take 1s and 10s Back to my point of cash vs. plastic. These vending machines also take a debit/credit card which makes dealing with them a whole lot simpler

[subego]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

because you have to wait for them to authorize.

Even in a store with a solid internet connection, there's only a time savings is if the clerk is bagging your merchandise while it's authorizing.

Not to mention I have to tell the damn thing it's a credit card. It's a ****ing computer, it should know.

[Luca Rescigno]

Authorizing a card and waiting for the person to sign for it never seems to take any longer than handing out the change and waiting for the person to put their change away.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by subego 

Even in a store with a solid internet connection, there's only a time savings is if the clerk is bagging your merchandise while it's authorizing.

Not to mention I have to tell the damn thing it's a credit card. It's a ****ing computer, it should know.

Tell me about it. I've actually switched back to using cash at the grocery store because the card readers are often worn out. I was always there swiping the card multiple times and apologizing to those behind me.

[phantomdragonz]

Originally Posted by subego 

Even in a store with a solid internet connection, there's only a time savings is if the clerk is bagging your merchandise while it's authorizing..

I am one of those "clerks" I work in a grocery store so here is some first hand experience....

credit/debit cards are AWESOME! cash is a pain in the ass and dont even get me started on checks!

the authorization time is literally 3-5 seconds, I wait more for the person to figure out how to slide the card then to have it authorized. credit/debit is by far the fastest form of payment at a grocery store, I have to press ONE button at the end of the transaction... i can start bagging or whatnot while the card gets approved.

at my store, once that cashier starts ringing up the order you can swipe your card, so once I am done all you have to do is approve the amount on the pin pad and 3 seconds later you are walking out the door...

cash is a pain simply because of the responsibility of the cashier to get it correct and give the change...


Cash slows down the line, and people who write checks should be SHOT! (joking, but seriously, checks suck)

EDIT: most businesses in my area are switching to a no signing policy for anything under about $25, and if you pay debit (enter your PIN) then you dont have to sign anyways... if a charge under $25 is contested by the card owner the amount is refunded because we dont have a signature... it simply costs more to have the employee find the signed slip and all related paperwork then to just refund the money.

-Zach

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

Cash transactions are frequently much faster than debit/credit cards because you have to wait for them to authorize. When I'm in line at the deli to get my lunch almost everyone pays cash. You can actually hear people get pissed when some dork whips out a debit card to pay for a $7 transaction and holds everything up.

Your deli has a crappy and outdated machine or something. Most are very fast, and if they'd skip the signature due to the small transaction size, it's even better. Really, though, they should use a PIN pad and default to debit since it is cheaper for small merchants than credit.

[FireWire]

Originally Posted by subego 

Not to mention I have to tell the damn thing it's a credit card. It's a ****ing computer, it should know.

I've always wondered that too... The first 6 digits tell it everything it needs to know.. Type of card, issuer, etc. Stupid computer!

Back on topic, I don't think it would be too difficult to upgrade the machines to accept the new bills, as I think only the length would be different, not the width. Come on, even the Mexicans have it



The 500 pesos bill is roughly equal in size to current US and CDN bills. A quarter is there for comparaison. I'm still jealous that they have nicer bills than us

A for the Braille embossing, I think it's a good idea. Here's what I said about it two years ago:

Originally Posted by FireWire 

If only they'd speed up the process of implementing the smart card as a widespread mean of payment.. In Europe, they even use it for medical care! Blind people's wallets would speak to them the amount of the transaction as well as the balance.

Back on topic, I must say that the Canadian currency stands pretty good in terms of accessibility and security. 20$ 5$ bills and higher have holograms in them, and all denominations have a braille-like embossing for the vision impaired, as well as being of a different color.

Bank of Canada page about security.
Bank of Canada page about accessibility.
Representative picture of all current Canadian bills.

An interesting finding I made while visiting the accessibility page, is that they provide a bank note reader that can help the user to determine the denomination, either by voice (French or English), by a tone or a vibration!

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

Your deli has a crappy and outdated machine or something. Most are very fast, and if they'd skip the signature due to the small transaction size, it's even better. Really, though, they should use a PIN pad and default to debit since it is cheaper for small merchants than credit.

Yeah, I can swipe a card much faster than most cashiers can grab correct change.

[Zeeb]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

Your deli has a crappy and outdated machine or something. Most are very fast, and if they'd skip the signature due to the small transaction size, it's even better. Really, though, they should use a PIN pad and default to debit since it is cheaper for small merchants than credit.

It's not the only business in my area where cash is faster for small items. The newly built pharmacy I go to has the terminals where you don't have to swipe the card but rather wave it in front of the reader. However, people wave their cards two or three times without result. Now I rarely see people pay that way. I don't know, there could be some type of a bandwidth issue here that is making these things harder.

I don't have anything against paying with a debit/credit card--I just got tired of waiting longer than people paying cash. The only place I still use a card for a smallish transaction is the movie theater. MUCH quicker to use a kiosk than wait in line at the box office!

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

It's not the only business in my area where cash is faster for small items. The newly built pharmacy I go to has the terminals where you don't have to swipe the card but rather wave it in front of the reader. However, people wave their cards two or three times without result. Now I rarely see people pay that way. I don't know, there could be some type of a bandwidth issue here that is making these things harder.

You have to have a card designed for that waving thing. Most people don't.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Yeah, I can swipe a card much faster than most cashiers can grab correct change.

That's more because most cashiers can't add to save their lives, let alone make correct change without the register telling them what the change is. The days of cash transactions where you knew that the person on the other side of the counter was doing everything right are long gone. When my son was in retail, he actually got a pat on the back for "thinking up" his habit of counting back a customer's change: "You gave me a $20 for $17.35, so here's 40 (hands a nickel), 50 (hands a dime), 75 (hands a quarter), 18dollars (another quarter), and 19, and 20 (two singles). Thanks!" This isn't really about how quick it is to do a card transaction—that time factor depends on the retailer's network connection, and most card machines STILL run at 300 baud. It's about how cash takes longer because people employ folks that don't understand money as cashiers. Yes, it's a peeve of mine.

I don't know how well Braille will hold up in heavy bill usage, but the intaglio printing on U.S. bills stays remarkably easy to feel even after the bill has been (sometimes literally) through the ringer. Something like Braille but as part of the printing process might work quite well.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

They have to upgrade those stupid things every time the dollar changes anyway. How would this be any different? Every time the dollar changes, all the machines get a sign that says, "This machine does not accept the new X bill" for about a week.

Since they are the same size you're saying size doesn't matter?

Never mind the jokes.

So they must optically read something.

[Oisín]

When my son was in retail, he actually got a pat on the back for "thinking up" his habit of counting back a customer's change: "You gave me a $20 for $17.35, so here's 40 (hands a nickel), 50 (hands a dime), 75 (hands a quarter), 18dollars (another quarter), and 19, and 20 (two singles). Thanks!"

Cashiers here have started counting back change like that over here, too, and it annoys me to no end. The traditional way to count back change here would be, for your example, “$20 for $17.35, that’s $2.65 back for you. Here’s $2 (two singles), 50¢ (two quarters), 60¢ (dime), and $2.65 (nickel)”. Doing it the other way around confuses the hell out of me and I always end up not having the faintest clue how much I paid or how much I got back.

[/pet peeve]

[turtle777]

Ha, that's why I use credits cards.

Cashier: Your total is Eleventy Billion $ and 65 cents
Me: Here's my Amex card.
Cashier: Your change is nada, zilch, zero, nothing, nix.
Me: For real.

-t

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

Since they are the same size you're saying size doesn't matter?

I don't know if size matters. All they'd have to do is buy change mechanism from some other company instead of the company they used to go through. Either way, they have to upgrade the machine. When they do, upgrade it with a new mechanical feeder.

[Luca Rescigno]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Cashiers here have started counting back change like that over here, too, and it annoys me to no end. The traditional way to count back change here would be, for your example, “$20 for $17.35, that’s $2.65 back for you. Here’s $2 (two singles), 50¢ (two quarters), 60¢ (dime), and $2.65 (nickel)”. Doing it the other way around confuses the hell out of me and I always end up not having the faintest clue how much I paid or how much I got back.

[/pet peeve]

Agreed. I think that's a holdover from when cash registers didn't add anything up. But if you're trusting the register to get an accurate total for all your items, then there's no reason not to trust that it's showing the correct amount of change. At that point, the cashier should be counting out the change they're giving back so it's the right amount.

[TheWOAT]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Personally, I'm not convinced the blind will even see the difference.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Ha, that's why I use credits cards.

Cashier: Your total is Eleventy Billion $ and 65 cents
Me: Here's my Amex card.
Cashier: Your change is nada, zilch, zero, nothing, nix.
Me: For real.

-t

Happens with credit cards, too. (Or rather, with debit cards, since credit cards are not generally used here, whereas everyone has a DanKort, which is used as a debit card in 99.9 per cent of the cases)

It’s quite common here to pay by card and then ask for “100 above” or “at 200” or something like that (I’ve never quite figured out how you’d say that in English, actually), and get loose change back in cash. There are still places that only take cash here, though admittedly they are few. All vending machines at school only take coins, though, and after a long day of boring classes, they make a compelling argument in favour of carrying loose change in your pockets.

[turtle777]

Why the heck would I use my card to get cash at the store ?

Ah well...

-t

[peeb]

Erm, because you're there, and it saves a trip to the bank?

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

It’s quite common here to pay by card and then ask for “100 above” or “at 200” or something like that (I’ve never quite figured out how you’d say that in English, actually), and get loose change back in cash. There are still places that only take cash here, though admittedly they are few. All vending machines at school only take coins, though, and after a long day of boring classes, they make a compelling argument in favour of carrying loose change in your pockets.

That's called "cash back" here in Ontario


Only reason I get cash back is because bars here don't have interact, so it's easier getting paper money when making a purchase someplace else.

[kmkkid]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Erm, because you're there, and it saves a trip to the bank?

Also saves you an extra service charge if you do it all in one transaction.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Erm, because you're there, and it saves a trip to the bank?

What trip to the bank ?

Again, I DON'T NEED CASH.

-t

[peeb]

So you never, ever go anywhere where your card doesn't work? Never carry emergency cash? Wow. You should get out more.

[sek929]

If you go anywhere that doesn't have a card swiper, then there are usually 10 ATMs within walking distance.