[Jawbone54]

I'm shooting my first wedding later this month, and I do not have an external flash...

I'm trying to decide between the Canon 430EX and the 580EX II, and I'm not sure if the extra $150 I'd be spending on the 580EX II is worth it. I've avoided flash like the plague for so long, but I know it's necessary for weddings, and I'm ignorant concerning the topic.

Help, anyone?

[peeb]

Erm, if you're really going to be 'shooting a wedding' it matters far less which of these two flashes you use, and much more that you get some hardcore practice using it in different situations. Both are plausible choices, your skill with them will make more difference. I think you should seriously consider not taking this gig if you really have no experience with external flashes.

[Jawbone54]

I wouldn't say "no experience," just not extensive experience. I've used a friend's 430EX quite a few times, but not the 580, and I didn't know if the cost difference was justified for something like this.

[peeb]

Well, the 580 is more powerful, and can be switched from master to slave mode - it depends whether you are going to be shooting in very high ceiling environments with lower light. If you don't know, my suspicion would be that either will work very well.

[peeb]

Actually, I think you'd be better off getting the flash off the camera completely - you're using this wirelessly, or with a cable?

[Eug]

The 580EX has a built in diffuser with a white reflector. Not a big deal, but very convenient. And it's much more powerful, which could matter if you use an umbrella or something. It also has much more flexibility for varying the flash power.

Canon Speedlite 430EX Flash Review

Oh, and if you can also power the 580EX from an external power source, which may be important in certain situations.

[villalobos]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Actually, I think you'd be better off getting the flash off the camera completely - you're using this wirelessly, or with a cable?

I second that. I used a flash wirelessly for a wedding, and it gives much better results than on the camera.

[IceEnclosure]

Even search flickr for examples of images taken with each of these. If the results you're after can be had with the cheaper of the two, then get it. Of course, with an eye towards the future you should probably get the S10000EZXX flash and be done with it.

More powerful, bounceable on-camera flash would be better than nothing, and getting the flash off camera would be most ideal.

Some images I took the other night nothin' special, just some "flash drama" added.






edit: I've got a D40 + SB600. This combination does not allow for the SB600 to be wirelessly triggered by the built-in flash(D40 does not operate in Commander mode). A D40 would need an SB800 mounted on top to get Commander controls, only then could you trigger wireless strobes. I've got the SC-29 cable, which has an AF illuminator above the hot shoe mount, so the AF is always where you're aiming the camera, even if the flash(and it's built in AF illuminator) are in some wacky sky-high aiming-the-wrong-way position. Something to think about when going for the strobe-on-a-rope.


Jawbone, I know you've got Canon, but I thought this info would be helpful anyhow. : )

This is tight:
(not my work)

Camera on monopod RED flashflavor on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

[Demonhood]

are you doing the entire wedding? getting ready, formals, ceremony, reception, etc.

i've got the 580EX and it fits my needs quite well. if you got the 430 you should, at the very least, get a white card to attach to it and move it off camera. you don't have to hold it like Ice up there, so get a bracket. scope out the location to see how low the ceiling is, what color it is, if you're allowed to set up a light stand for formals (which means you'll have to use RF tech instead of a cable), and if you're even allowed a flash during the ceremony. most churches don't allow it. you'll have to get creative with a high ISO and either a monopod or an IS lens.

so, keywords: ceiling, bouncing, diffusion, background.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

Conveniently placed legs and beer cup.

[James L]

Hey JB,

Just my opinion, but go big on one of your flashes.

As you know I'm a Nikon guy, so I will use the SB600 (which I have) and the SB800 as examples.

The price difference between the two is about $125 - $150. But, with the higher end flash you will get a built in optical slave, a flash diffuser, Gels, a pc sync port, and a stronger output. At least in Nikon land... I'm unfamiliar with Canon's flash lineup.

Like anything, we often start conservative on something, but then as our skills grow we out grow our equipment. As you delve more into flash you are going to want to spend a lot of time working with it off camera. It's where the great light is. I'd highly suggest reading the strobist website. Here is his strobist 101 course in one pdf you can download:

Strobist: Lighting 101 Now Available in PDF Format

There are three ways you can trigger off camera flash:

1) radio signal, such as pocket wizards or cheaper ebay triggers (transmitter attached to your camera hotshoe, receiver attached to your flash via various methods).
2) IR, such as Nikon's creative lighting system.
3) Optical, where one flash firing triggers another.

There are pros and cons of each.

Nikon has a built in CLS system where you can wirelessly trigger their flashes, adjust flash output on the camera (using TTL), etc. It is very cool. The downfall is that it is IR, which means it needs line of sight to work. It might bounce in a room, but outside it can be problematic.

Optical slaves carry no TTL information, so you would be using your flash in manual mode (which most pros do anyway). They are inexpensive, but have the same line of sight issues that the IR systems do.

Radio triggers are the industry standard most of the time. They do not carry TTL information (unless you use the new radio poppers), but do not require line of sight and work very well. Pocket Wizards are amazing.

If you buy a cheaper flash now for on camera work that has no PC sync port or optical slave you will end up buying $20 - $50 adapters to make the flash work wirelessly down the road.

I suggest to everyone I discuss this with that you buy one great flash for your on camera work. One that is compatible with your camera's TTL system.

Then, if you need extra lights (I use 3 sometimes), eBay cheap ones like old Nikon SB28 models. You can get them for $50, and they work great as off camera lights.

Cheers!

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

Jawbone, I know you've got Canon, but I thought this info would be helpful anyhow. : )

This is tight:
(not my work)

Camera on monopod RED flashflavor on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Saw that picture before. I can't remember where. They described how it was done....

Definitely was helpful. Thank you very much (everyone)!

I'm going to be getting the 580EX II, just to future proof it for my needs. It's not that dramatic of a price difference, so I might as well get the one I'll grow into.

I'll be using it non-stop up until the wedding. I'm typically a fairly quick learner, so I should be able to pick up some of the techniques in the three weeks that I'll have to really work on it.

Anyone have a place they like to visit for flash info besides strobist.com (already checking it out)?

[Jens Peter]

I shot my best friends wedding a few weeks ago; my setup was my 350D+24-105L, 400D+100-400L, fisheye 8mm and Sigma 30mm f1.4 and my 580IIex.

I didn't have my flash external, but I bounced it off the ceiling in ~90% of the shots. I got a lot of inspiration from Flickr and photo.net, they have a "wedding"-section and other than that, I practiced a lot in the weeks up to the wedding - I think my neighbors think I'm crazy for standing in the garden, taking pictures of random objects with the flash...

Have fun, I'm sure you will take some great shots!

Oh, and remember extra batteries - I used 2 packs that day

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Jens Peter 

I shot my best friends wedding a few weeks ago; my setup was my 350D+24-105L, 400D+100-400L, fisheye 8mm and Sigma 30mm f1.4 and my 580IIex.

I didn't have my flash external, but I bounced it off the ceiling in ~90% of the shots. I got a lot of inspiration from Flickr and photo.net, they have a "wedding"-section and other than that, I practiced a lot in the weeks up to the wedding - I think my neighbors think I'm crazy for standing in the garden, taking pictures of random objects with the flash...

Have fun, I'm sure you will take some great shots!

Oh, and remember extra batteries - I used 2 packs that day

More great info. I really appreciate it, guys.

I have this massive picture folder titled "Ideas" in which I've categorized shots that I've saved for over a year now. There's a wedding folder, engagements, scenic, art, bands, etc. I've collected quite a few from Flickr, blogs, and other random places. I probably have a few hundred photos in there. I need to go through them to see how many would help me with lighting ideas.

[ghporter]

Two relatively non-technical (photographically) things to consider that will make the photography go much better: Go to where you'll be taking pictures and take a LOT of practice shots from every angle there is. Be at at least one rehearsal so you know how everything will flow and (more importantly) where everyone will be so you don't trip on someone or (OMG!!!) you don't trip someone in the wedding party.

From all those practice shots you'll get an idea of how well the flash you have (or move up to) does in that environment, whether it's too harsh or too weak, etc. VERY good stuff to know ahead of time. From the rehearsal, you'll know what sort of "great opportunities" you could have during the actual ceremony as well as the walk up and down the aisle.

Another thing to prep for is to find out what colors everyone is wearing. I attended a wedding on Saturday, and the combination of the chapel's wall colors, the brides stunningly (and impressive) white dress and veil, and bridesmaids' light green dresses all flowed very well. The guys were all wearing black (or honestly REALLY dark Navy Blue formal suits with white shirts, so it was going to be a struggle to get any details from their clothes, but who cares about what guys wear anyway? But knowing what colors and how many people are wearing what will make your lighting selection a lot smarter.

[Railroader]

The 580 is a good choice. I ended up with a 430 and a Metz 58 AF-1. I use the Metz to trigger the 430 in slave mode.

Also, get one of these! THE LIGHTSPHERE CLOUD! Very awesome diffuser. I attended a wedding and the photographer let me borrow it for a couple shots, instant improvement.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

Anyone have a place they like to visit for flash info besides strobist.com (already checking it out)?

Awesome portrait and glamour lighting dude:

LIGHTING ESSENTIALS : For Photographers

His Flickr is here:

Flickr: Wizwow's Photostream

Also, this is a great site on using flash. Tutorials down the right hand side (mostly wedding specific):

planet neil - tangents

Enjoy!

[IceEnclosure]

I stuck my SB600 in a ceiling fan tonight and it won't fire anymore.

Stupid off-camera lighting!!!!

[James L]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

I stuck my SB600 in a ceiling fan tonight and it won't fire anymore.

Stupid off-camera lighting!!!!

lol!

My friend didn't put gas in his car and the damn thing stopped running on the highway last week.

Freakin' cars!!!

[Jawbone54]

You guys rock.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

You guys rock.

While I am thinking of them:

Flickr: Strobist.com

Flickr: One Strobe Pony

Flickr: S.U.M. (Setups Mandatory) Show us your lights!

[Demonhood]

oh, and for the love of all that is holy, don't leave rechargeable batteries in the flash for more than a day. keep them separate until you need the flash and then load them in.

[Jawbone54]

Yee haw...



Sorry for the crappy quality. Taken with my K550i camera phone.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Demonhood 

oh, and for the love of all that is holy, don't leave rechargeable batteries in the flash for more than a day. keep them separate until you need the flash and then load them in.

Noted.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

Yee haw...



Sorry for the crappy quality. Taken with my K550i camera phone.

Congrats my friend, you will have a blast! I will be uploading shots from a shoot yesterday that were all off camera flash. I'll send you a link.

Now, three things popped to mind:

1) Never point that thing directly at your subject again!

2) When you get your rechargeable batteries, make sure they are at least 2500 mAh. I use these:



I keep the charger in my camera bag, and have 12 batteries (the 4 that came with the charger and 2 extra sets). The charger is very small, and when I am shooting indoors I can put dead batteries into it and plug it into the wall while I shoot with the other batteries.

3) When you can, don't shoot with your flash on max power. This drains the batteries faster, and has longer recycle times. eTTL when used on camera will adjust this on its own. When off camera and shooting manually I try to keep my flashes at 1/2 - 1/16 power.

Enjoy!

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Jens Peter 

I didn't have my flash external, but I bounced it off the ceiling in ~90% of the shots.

Just for Jawbone: this only works, if the room has a low ceiling, bouncing your flash off a church ceiling is pointless as they are too high.

Originally Posted by Jens Peter 

Oh, and remember extra batteries - I used 2 packs that day

Ditto. I used three packs. Batteries are cheap, you should always have at least one more pack on you

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

I stuck my SB600 in a ceiling fan tonight and it won't fire anymore.

Stupid off-camera lighting!!!!

You stuck your flash in a ceiling fan??
Care to elaborate?

[Railroader]

And post some pics in the Photo Critique thread! That thread is dying even though major efforts were made to keep it on track.

[Jawbone54]

James L and OreoCookie: I'm going out to buy some today. I'll go ahead and buy the rechargeables with two extra sets. I still can't believe the flash came in so quickly.

Railroader, is that thread unlocked now? I'll post some more in there eventually, but I got turned off of it about two weeks ago. It didn't have anything to do with critiques of my photos; I'm more than okay with someone ripping apart my photos if they'd like; that can only help me. It had more to do with the general bad feelings that started cropping up (semi-pun?) between various members.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Just for Jawbone: this only works, if the room has a low ceiling, bouncing your flash off a church ceiling is pointless as they are too high.

Ditto. I used three packs. Batteries are cheap, you should always have at least one more pack on you

QFT

Most halls, and churches have high ceilings where bouncing the flash off will not work. Personally that's how I like to shoot but when doing an event that's just not possible.

My suggestion to Jawbone, is to start practicing especially if you are the main photographer. The last thing a bride wants to see is a portrait of her and the wedding party but the highlights are blown out.

Also take extra batteries, for the flash and the camera. Extra memory cards and extra lenses if you have them.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

Railroader, is that thread unlocked now? I'll post some more in there eventually, but I got turned off of it about two weeks ago. It didn't have anything to do with critiques of my photos; I'm more than okay with someone ripping apart my photos if they'd like; that can only help me. It had more to do with the general bad feelings that started cropping up (semi-pun?) between various members.

It is unlocked! reader50 did a great job cleaning it up and removing the crap.

Post there and I will critique for you. Your "style" with the new addition of flash photography will surely be interesting.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

Just for Jawbone: this only works, if the room has a low ceiling, bouncing your flash off a church ceiling is pointless as they are too high.

That's why the Gary Fong diffuser is so nice. reposting the link; THE LIGHTSPHERE CLOUD!

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

That's why the Gary Fong diffuser is so nice. reposting the link; THE LIGHTSPHERE CLOUD!

That diffuser looks like it does a great job. Have you used it much? I may snag one for my Nikon

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

That diffuser looks like it does a great job. Have you used it much? I may snag one for my Nikon

I only used it for a few shots, but a wedding photographer at a wedding I attended used it and his shots were excellent. But everyone I know who does wedding photography either has one or wants one.

[Railroader]

Well, I am now a proud owner. I bought one. We'll see if my recommendation is accurate.

[MacosNerd]

I'll be a proud owner myself tomorrow morning.

[IceEnclosure]

I saw someone this weekend using a handheld square card for bouncing flash in a night club. Pretty neat, had a handle on the back of it.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

I saw someone this weekend using a handheld square card for bouncing flash in a night club. Pretty neat, had a handle on the back of it.

My cousin made his own ring flash from some foil backed cardboard. Worked well, but crushed when his cat sat on it.

A ring flash is something I'd love to own but have almost zero justification for.

[Goldfinger]

double post

[Goldfinger]

If you got access to glossy photo printer paper then make a "better bounce card". ABetterBounceCard.com they cost nothing and are awesome and easily replaceable. For in-church flash I'd go with wireless radio triggers. Some light stands and umbrellas but that could be a bit much as an investment.

Another thing: do NOT underestimate a wedding and don't **** it up. You've got only one shot at it. That said; good luck. Stay focused and all will go well.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

My cousin made his own ring flash from some foil backed cardboard. Worked well, but crushed when his cat sat on it.

A ring flash is something I'd love to own but have almost zero justification for.

I've got one as well . Made from styrofoam, tin foil and a mirror. It's only compatible with one of my lenses though and one of my flashes.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

That's why the Gary Fong diffuser is so nice. reposting the link; THE LIGHTSPHERE CLOUD!

I see. I'll ask one of my friends to get one for me next time they are in the states.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I see. I'll ask one of my friends to get one for me next time they are in the states.

You can get them in Europe. They cost around €40.

[OreoCookie]

BTW, how hard is it to work with non-TTL flashes? I'm thinking of supplementing my SB-400 with something stronger and more versatile … 

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger 

Another thing: do NOT underestimate a wedding and don't **** it up. You've got only one shot at it. That said; good luck. Stay focused and all will go well.

This advice is immensely true.

I made a HUGE mistake with my first wedding. I emailed the link to the wedding gallery while the couple was on their honeymoon. After a couple days I emailed it to people who gave me their mail addresses at the wedding. Those people ended up seeing the images before the bride and groom. HUGE mistake. From now on I will only supply the couple with the link and let them distribute it. To say the bride was PISSED is an understatement. Rookie mistake. Learn from mine.

Also, I took too many pictures. I ended up with about 1800 sellable images. I pruned it down to 1200 for the gallery. Still about 800 too many.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger 

Another thing: do NOT underestimate a wedding and don't **** it up. You've got only one shot at it. That said; good luck. Stay focused and all will go well.

Thanks for the well wishes.

I'm definitely not underestimating the wedding. I've done an immense amount of research, scheduling, double-checking of what I need to have prepared the night before, etc.

The only issue is that I'm not going to be able to scope out the location until the morning of the wedding. It's in Salem, Illinois.

[James L]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

Thanks for the well wishes.

I'm definitely not underestimating the wedding. I've done an immense amount of research, scheduling, double-checking of what I need to have prepared the night before, etc.

The only issue is that I'm not going to be able to scope out the location until the morning of the wedding. It's in Salem, Illinois.

Hey JB,

I'm sure you'll do fine. If you ever start playing with strobist / off camera lighting, here is a simple video to show you how to get started:

YouTube - Strobist Preliminaries

Cheers!