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Just got ripped off by Paypal, doh!
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Jun 4, 2008, 10:36 PM
 
I bought something on eBay for $20 (I know, a paltry sum, but its the principle!) I payed the seller right away and got the typical "hey thanks for paying, your item will be in the mail tomorrow!" So, 2 weeks go by, I send a query "Hey, everything ok? I haven't received it yet" which was replied with "oh there was a delay I just shipped it." Another week, and I ask can you verify you shipped this item? I receive a tracking number, check the tracking number and returns with "Seller intends to ship this item but it has not yet shipped" Uh Oh, I ask about that and get no reply. So I file a dispute with Paypal. They investigate, seller sends the tracking number he sent to me and Paypal closes the case!!!! And to make matters worse Paypal won't let me open another dispute on this because it has already been "resolved!"

Whoa! Now I know why everyone says Paypal is a rip off! I got taken and Paypal helped!

This sucks, I'm closing my account.
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Jun 4, 2008, 10:38 PM
 
Seriously, this is why you should ALWAYS use credit cards.

One call to Amex ( yes, I do have a preference ), and this case would be closed - satisfactorily.

-t
     
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Jun 4, 2008, 10:48 PM
 
One call to paypal and this case should also close to your satisfaction. Don't bother with email, call them.
     
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Jun 4, 2008, 11:04 PM
 
Oh god! 2 hours of computer menus only to reach "Kevin" in New Delhi, aack!

I'll give it a try 'cause I gots nothing to lose at this point, but I will close my verified account, enough of this!
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Jun 4, 2008, 11:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by JohnM15141 View Post
Oh god! 2 hours of computer menus only to reach "Kevin" in New Delhi, aack!

I'll give it a try 'cause I gots nothing to lose at this point, but I will close my verified account, enough of this!
Ha.

I don't even have to talk to Amex about that stuff.

Just a couple of clicks online, disputing the charge, and I have the credit sitting in my account two days later, no questions asked. I love Amex.

-t
     
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Jun 4, 2008, 11:51 PM
 
That's also the way to get Paypal to take this seriously - once cancelled payments start costing them profits, they'll fix it.
     
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Jun 4, 2008, 11:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by JohnM15141 View Post
Oh god! 2 hours of computer menus only to reach "Kevin" in New Delhi, aack!
With paypal you'll be talking to someone in Omaha.

Not that they're any smarter, you'll just be able to understand their idiocy better.
     
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Jun 5, 2008, 04:20 AM
 
I hate PayPal.

It’s not just buyers that get ripped off, though.

I once sold this record, got paid, shipped the thing, received and gave positive feedback and everything, then two weeks later it turns out the buyer was using a stolen debit card or something to make the payment, so PayPal froze the funds and later took them off of my PayPal account, so I ended up with no record and around $80 out of pocket. Not funny.

Now, eBay and PayPal have made further changes which allow them to arbitrarily ‘hold’ payments until after you have shipped the item. Pure insanity, there’s no way I can ship anything, especially heavy items, until I actually have access to the money, how else am I supposed to pay for shipping?

How do you go about letting people pay you directly via credit card? I’d love to do it, but am confused about how to set this up.
     
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Jun 5, 2008, 08:18 AM
 
I was just caught by surprise at how easy it was for an unscrupulous seller to thwart the system. I guess it just as easy for an unscrupulous buyer to do the same (I've never sold on ebay.) I now realize that Paypal inundates you with buzz words and slogans like "buy safe," "Buyer Protection" and "The Security of Paypal" etc. They are just slogans to reassure you when there is actually no protection at all. The power of propaganda! I fell for it. Interesting!
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Jun 5, 2008, 08:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by JohnM15141 View Post
I was just caught by surprise at how easy it was for an unscrupulous seller to thwart the system. I guess it just as easy for an unscrupulous buyer to do the same (I've never sold on ebay.) I now realize that Paypal inundates you with buzz words and slogans like "buy safe," "Buyer Protection" and "The Security of Paypal" etc. They are just slogans to reassure you when there is actually no protection at all. The power of propaganda! I fell for it. Interesting!
Look at it this way: you learned an important lesson about yourself AND paypal "security" which only cost you 20$.
On top of that I too learned from your misfortune. I'd pay you for the privilege - too bad you no longer have a Paypal account
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Jun 5, 2008, 09:22 AM
 
Very True! I have learned a valuable lesson very cheaply! I should have looked at the details behind their claims. Also, I mispoke I'm not closing my Paypal account, I meant to say I'm removing my bank account from Paypal, which I have come to realize is very stupid on my part and puts my bank account at the mercy of paypal. At least with a credit card I have some measure of protection...

Originally Posted by The Milkman View Post
Look at it this way: you learned an important lesson about yourself AND paypal "security" which only cost you 20$.
On top of that I too learned from your misfortune. I'd pay you for the privilege - too bad you no longer have a Paypal account
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Jun 5, 2008, 05:28 PM
 
Why would anyone give Paypal a bank account instead of a credit card?
     
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Jun 5, 2008, 05:44 PM
 
The intarweb is an awful place.
     
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Jun 5, 2008, 06:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by mduell View Post
Why would anyone give Paypal a bank account instead of a credit card?
Yeah, I dunno.

I guess some people don't really understand the difference between DEBIT and CREDIT cards.
They think because they both have a Visa / MasterCard logo, they gotta be the same.

-t
     
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Jun 5, 2008, 06:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by rickey939 View Post
The intarweb is an awful place.
I know, you gotta have balls to use it

-t
     
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Jun 5, 2008, 06:21 PM
 
Paypal is the best example of organized eCrime *EVAR*.

I can't stand those bastards. It's almost like the people who run it got together one day and said "How can we make this service as friendly as possible for our biggest profit pool, the eBay scammers?"
     
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Jun 5, 2008, 06:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Yeah, I dunno.

I guess some people don't really understand the difference between DEBIT and CREDIT cards.
They think because they both have a Visa / MasterCard logo, they gotta be the same.

-t
Combo cards are probably partly to blame, too.
     
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Jun 5, 2008, 07:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Oisín View Post
Combo cards are probably partly to blame, too.
I have never heard of such a thing.

A card that's a credit AND debit card at the same time ?

How does that work ?

-t
     
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Jun 5, 2008, 07:52 PM
 
They’re quite common here.

Since 1983 or so, we’ve had a more or less nationalised, institutionalised system of debit cards, called the Dankort. It’s purely a debit card.

However, since some time in the ’90s (I think), it’s been possible to have combo cards, like a VISA/Dankort, which acts like a debit card when you use it anywhere that’s hooked up to a Dankort-compatible network (meaning—since the Dankort concept is so closed and Danish—when you use it in Denmark), but as a VISA card elsewhere. I’m not even sure if VISA offer debit cards over here, but my VISA/Dankort is definitely a credit card when I use it outside of Denmark (or in one of the very, very rare places in Denmark where they take credit cards, but not Dankort).

Of course, you’re never in a situation where the card can act as both debit and credit card at the same time; but the fact that the different rôles of the card change seamlessly, without the card holder ever being aware (other than background knowledge) has definitely meant that few people know the difference between a debit and a credit card here.
     
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Jun 5, 2008, 10:31 PM
 
Wow, I never heard of that kind of card. Very educational.

-t
     
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Jun 5, 2008, 11:08 PM
 
Does it just authorize using VISA's system but directly debit from your account, or does it go to a different account -- a credit one, where charges build up and you pay it off monthly?
     
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Jun 6, 2008, 12:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
Does it just authorize using VISA's system but directly debit from your account, or does it go to a different account -- a credit one, where charges build up and you pay it off monthly?
I was wondering the same thing, but it sounds like a true credit card that builds up a balance.

Oisin, do you get a bill at the end of each cycle, asking you to pay off your VISA charges that you incurred ?

-t
     
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Jun 6, 2008, 12:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Ha.

I don't even have to talk to Amex about that stuff.

Just a couple of clicks online, disputing the charge, and I have the credit sitting in my account two days later, no questions asked. I love Amex.

-t
That's fast. I had to deal with AMEX like a month for a $99 from a 'mystery merchant'. As an occasional ebay seller, I do prefer Paypal, but I rarely keep the money there.
     
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Jun 6, 2008, 01:57 AM
 
Some people associate a bank account with PayPal for the convenience of transferring funds to their regular bank account.
     
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Jun 6, 2008, 02:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by JohnM15141 View Post
I bought something on eBay for $20 (I know, a paltry sum, but its the principle!) I payed the seller right away and got the typical "hey thanks for paying, your item will be in the mail tomorrow!" So, 2 weeks go by, I send a query "Hey, everything ok? I haven't received it yet" which was replied with "oh there was a delay I just shipped it." Another week, and I ask can you verify you shipped this item? I receive a tracking number, check the tracking number and returns with "Seller intends to ship this item but it has not yet shipped" Uh Oh, I ask about that and get no reply. So I file a dispute with Paypal. They investigate, seller sends the tracking number he sent to me and Paypal closes the case!!!! And to make matters worse Paypal won't let me open another dispute on this because it has already been "resolved!"

Whoa! Now I know why everyone says Paypal is a rip off! I got taken and Paypal helped!

This sucks, I'm closing my account.
BTW, sometimes, it takes a few days before the shipment actually registers in the shippers system. Heck, with the USPS, I get the package before the system even acknowledges that there is a package in the system.

Wait a couple days, and it might arrive. If the seller has a reasonable ebay rating, then it might eventually arrive.

Another update. Ebay has discontinued their insurance program for items over (I believe) $75.
     
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Jun 6, 2008, 06:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by red rocket View Post
Now, eBay and PayPal have made further changes which allow them to arbitrarily ‘hold’ payments until after you have shipped the item. Pure insanity, there’s no way I can ship anything, especially heavy items, until I actually have access to the money, how else am I supposed to pay for shipping?

How do you go about letting people pay you directly via credit card? I’d love to do it, but am confused about how to set this up.
It's called cashflow. If your cashflow is so low that you can't pay for shipping without having access to the selling funds then accepting credit cards won't help you. A merchant account, which is what you need to accept credit cards, typically pays every 90 days.
     
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Jun 6, 2008, 07:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I was wondering the same thing, but it sounds like a true credit card that builds up a balance.

Oisin, do you get a bill at the end of each cycle, asking you to pay off your VISA charges that you incurred ?

-t
It’s somewhere in between, I think.

Whenever I’ve used the card outside Denmark, all the stuff I’ve used it for will usually show up in my net bank at the end of each month (or maybe it’s every two weeks, I’m not sure), all at the same time. I don’t get any bills for VISA fees, but some extra fee is automatically drawn from my account whenever a batch of outside-Denmark transactions go through. I think the fee is 0.5 per cent or something. Not a lot.

For some reason, this usually doesn’t apply to online transactions—they normally show up within four or five days and without any additional fees.

I only have one account, though, not a separate credit account.
     
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Jun 6, 2008, 07:37 AM
 
That's cool. If you travel a lot and use it, you could avoid the fees by getting a stand-alone credit card (unless you don't want the hassle).
     
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Jun 6, 2008, 07:42 AM
 
I don’t travel that much—and with fees that low, I can live with it. I can spend $500 and the fee is $2.50. Standalone credit cards tend to have higher fees (because those normally come with a truckload of extra fancinesses that I neither want nor need), so I’m just sticking to this one for now.
     
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Jun 6, 2008, 08:41 AM
 
It's been 30 days, I'm leaning towards "...it ain't coming" plus he's starting to get more feedback similar to my situation...

The tracking number he gave me was a legitimate USPS tracking number but when you check it it says this:

The U.S. Postal Service was electronically notified by the shipper on May 14, 2008 to expect your package for mailing. This does not indicate receipt by the USPS or the actual mailing date. Delivery status information will be provided if / when available. No further information is available for this item.

The date on it is two weeks after he said he shipped it and after my first query. In retrospect it looks like he never shipped it, then when I asked he began the Paypal scam by created a valid but useless USPS label.

The curious part is I have purchased from him before and those 2 items showed up 3 or 4 days after payment. However armed with my new knowledge I read over his history and realized this is a pattern with that seller. He was able to hide it because he used to be able to leave negative feedback and blame buyers for the mix ups. malekb623 is his seller ID if you're curious...

Originally Posted by Buckaroo View Post
BTW, sometimes, it takes a few days before the shipment actually registers in the shippers system. Heck, with the USPS, I get the package before the system even acknowledges that there is a package in the system.

Wait a couple days, and it might arrive. If the seller has a reasonable ebay rating, then it might eventually arrive.

Another update. Ebay has discontinued their insurance program for items over (I believe) $75.
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Jun 6, 2008, 09:11 AM
 
I bought a laptop on eBay and paid with CC PayPal. Never got it. Tried recovery through PayPal, but they only gave me $2.43 (I'm not kidding - they actually credited my account for that paltry sum). After it was clear that they would not resolve the issue, I filed a chargeback with the CC. PayPal became very annoyed and threatened to close my account. They didn't actually close it and the chargeback stood.

Always use a credit card.
     
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Jun 6, 2008, 03:40 PM
 
This is a hard lesson, and why I've never used PayPal despite having an account.

I'm with turtle777 on the AMEX card, there's some serious power behind you when you use them.
     
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Jun 7, 2008, 05:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Mastrap
It's called cashflow. If your cashflow is so low that you can't pay for shipping without having access to the selling funds then accepting credit cards won't help you. A merchant account, which is what you need to accept credit cards, typically pays every 90 days.
Thanks, interesting.

90 days, wow, wasn’t expecting that.

Assuming I’m selling twenty items a month, and they each cost $40 to ship, I’d need $800 in reserves to cover the shipping. The merchant account provider would presumably be able to collect 90 days’ worth of interest on the total before they’d pay me out, on top of whatever fees I have to pay them for using their service.

Seems I have some serious budgeting to do before proceeding any further.

Seriously, 90 days? What about small shops, how do they manage to accept credit cards? My calculation above was based on insured pan-European shipping for 20 medium-sized packages. Assuming I did this semi-professionally rather than as just a hobby, I’d be looking at several thousands of dollars that I’d need to advance just for postage.
     
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Jun 7, 2008, 05:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by red rocket View Post
Thanks, interesting.

90 days, wow, wasn’t expecting that.

Assuming I’m selling twenty items a month, and they each cost $40 to ship, I’d need $800 in reserves to cover the shipping. The merchant account provider would presumably be able to collect 90 days’ worth of interest on the total before they’d pay me out, on top of whatever fees I have to pay them for using their service.

Seems I have some serious budgeting to do before proceeding any further.

Seriously, 90 days? What about small shops, how do they manage to accept credit cards? My calculation above was based on insured pan-European shipping for 20 medium-sized packages. Assuming I did this semi-professionally rather than as just a hobby, I’d be looking at several thousands of dollars that I’d need to advance just for postage.
Yep. Small shops usually will rent a credit machine where they pay a (small) fine on every purchase and a larger corporation will take the profits from that and pay out more often, ergo, paypal. It's why some gas station owners will give you a dirty look when you pay for your $5 in gas on credit.
     
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Jun 7, 2008, 07:43 AM
 
I'm sorry. I have a hard time seeing how PayPal is at fault here. It sounds to me like you got ripped off by malekb623, not by PayPal. Your thread title is misleading. Had you sent cash, check, or money order, you'd still have lost it.
     
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Jun 7, 2008, 10:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Mastrap View Post
It's called cashflow. If your cashflow is so low that you can't pay for shipping without having access to the selling funds then accepting credit cards won't help you. A merchant account, which is what you need to accept credit cards, typically pays every 90 days.
WTF are you talking about. The 'float' for Visa/MC/Discover is 2 days and for Amex it's 3 days. You must have a really crappy merchant account.
     
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Jun 7, 2008, 10:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
I'm sorry. I have a hard time seeing how PayPal is at fault here. It sounds to me like you got ripped off by malekb623, not by PayPal. Your thread title is misleading. Had you sent cash, check, or money order, you'd still have lost it.
eBay and PayPal advertise "buyer protection." The OP tried to use the "buyer protection," eBay and PayPal did a cursory investigation, the seller gave them a bogus tracking number (yes, a tracking number is proof that the item was sent), and they closed the case.

So yes, PayPal is at fault for not truly protecting the OP.
     
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Jun 7, 2008, 02:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by JohnM15141 View Post
It's been 30 days, I'm leaning towards "...it ain't coming" plus he's starting to get more feedback similar to my situation...

The tracking number he gave me was a legitimate USPS tracking number but when you check it it says this:

The U.S. Postal Service was electronically notified by the shipper on May 14, 2008 to expect your package for mailing. This does not indicate receipt by the USPS or the actual mailing date. Delivery status information will be provided if / when available. No further information is available for this item.

The date on it is two weeks after he said he shipped it and after my first query. In retrospect it looks like he never shipped it, then when I asked he began the Paypal scam by created a valid but useless USPS label.

The curious part is I have purchased from him before and those 2 items showed up 3 or 4 days after payment. However armed with my new knowledge I read over his history and realized this is a pattern with that seller. He was able to hide it because he used to be able to leave negative feedback and blame buyers for the mix ups. malekb623 is his seller ID if you're curious...

Damn. Your screwed. Good thing it was only $20. It still sucks even if it's $1.

I remember a month or two ago, checking for Photoshop on ebay. There was one seller that was selling several copies in auctions. He even had positive feedback from buyers who bought a couple copies from him. But his price was too good to be true. Because of the low price I suspected he had a few friends or other accounts he created buy and give the positive feedback.

Well, a month after several suckers bought his scam, he flaked out and was left with several negative feedbacks, and almost a dozen angry people out of their money. The deal required that the money be wired to an account in some other country. A big red flag for scam.

Oh, I forgot to mention it was one of those Adobe Master collections.
     
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Jun 7, 2008, 10:47 PM
 
Ha ha, now that I tried to call paypal I realize you where playing a CRUEL joke. You cant talk to anyone at paypal. It's an endless computer menu.

Not very nice Mr. Mastrap!

Well played mister, well played...

...you got me with that little joke!

Addendum, after going through endless and circular menus, I finally got frustrated and for no reason yelled "Operator!" and guess what I was connected immediately to one of those human beings! He listened made some notes and said he filed an appeal and not to worry...we'll see...

Originally Posted by Mastrap View Post
One call to paypal and this case should also close to your satisfaction. Don't bother with email, call them.
( Last edited by JohnM15141; Jun 7, 2008 at 11:00 PM. Reason: addition)
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Jun 8, 2008, 07:10 AM
 
Yes, you can. Just dial 0 at each prompt and you'll get through to a human being in no time. It really is easy, you just need to change the rules.

Gethuman - Home Page is a great resource in these circumstances.
     
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Jun 9, 2008, 12:27 PM
 
I got ripped off once for a large sum and Pay Pal sided with them. I couldn't believe it. And I see all these "Pay Pal only" posts in for sale ads. They haven't gotten the screws put to them yet and have a false sense of security about Pay Pal.
     
   
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