[Doofy]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Wrong.

This is most certainly up to the label.

This is one of the limitations LABELS put on iTunes to enter into their distribution agreement, not the other way around.

If it was up to Apple, there would be no such limitation.

Yeah, you're going to have to show me proof of that.

[TETENAL]

And you don't have to substantiate your claims?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

And you don't have to substantiate your claims?

No Tetenal, I don't. Why not? Because the fsking article linked from the OP agrees with me.

[TETENAL]

If you believe that you lack reading comprehension.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

If you believe that you lack reading comprehension.

The article is absolutely clear in its implications, and last I checked, reading comprehension is about more than mere literal statements.

If it were up to the label, then there wouldn't be an article - his album would just be available as "full album only" - as mentioned for that one album available as "full album only" on Amazon's download store; end of story.

Now, can everybody cut the ****ing pissing match - I'm interested in seeing the documentation about whether the iTunes Store has this kind of decision power or not, as well.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by analogika 

The article is absolutely clear in its implications, and last I checked, reading comprehension is about more than mere literal statements.

If it were up to the label, then there wouldn't be an article - his album would just be available as "full album only" - as mentioned for that one album available as "full album only" on Amazon's download store; end of story.

Selbe Leseschwäche.

The article talks about "full album only" sales, which the iTunes Store does not appear to have, but the relevant discussion in this thread was about "alum only tracks" on iTunes. That Apple doesn't appear to allow the rights owners to sell as the former doesn't mean they don't allow them to do the latter. Apple who makes billions in hardware sales and a few millions on the iTunes Store has less an incentive to declare tracks as "album only" than record companies who make all their money with selling music. So I think the obvious guess is that "album only" tracks are the idea of the record companies. But nobody knows who can declare tracks as "album only". The posted article is no indication.

[analogika]

A little more info:
http://www.charleston.net/news/2008/..._avoid_itunes/

Label executives, managers and artists chafe against the iTunes policy that prevents them from selling an album only. ITunes, with few exceptions, requires that songs be made available separately. Consumers strongly prefer that, though Apple also typically offers a special price for buyers who purchase all the songs on an album.

[Doofy]

http://www.tunecore.com/index/faq#StoresOverview

iTunes (and all other digital retailers, for that matter) reserves the right to sell music and/or music videos any way they want and at any price they want. When your songs or albums or music videos sell, you will always receive the required amount, but iTunes can sell your music or video for a penny, a million dollars or anything in between. For music, iTunes reserves the right to make a song "purchasable only with the album." That is, no button would be placed next to the song itself, no option to download it on its own would be available to the iTunes customer. iTunes does this solely at their own discretion. Sometimes they do it to long songs (presumably because a 73-minute song would be too much of a bargain for just $0.99, since that's a whole album's worth of music on a single song). Sometimes they do it to very short songs (presumably because $0.99 is too much for a 10-second song). Sometimes they simply adjust the price. However iTunes decides, TuneCore has no say in the matter, and neither do our patrons.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

The article talks about "full album only" sales, which the iTunes Store does not appear to have, but the relevant discussion in this thread was about "alum only tracks" on iTunes.

Wait. What?

I was talking about "full album only" sales, as per the article. I must have completely missed the part of the discussion where anybody was talking about "album only tracks".

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Wait. What?

I was talking about "full album only" sales, as per the article. I must have completely missed the part of the discussion where anybody was talking about "album only tracks".

Is there a difference?

‘Full album only’ = the album is only sold as a whole, no songs from it are sold separately.
‘Album only tracks’ = tracks are only sold as part of an entire album, not sold separately.

I fail to see the distinction here. If an album is added as ‘full album only’, all tracks on that album will automatically be ‘album only tracks’.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Is there a difference?

‘Full album only’ = the album is only sold as a whole, no songs from it are sold separately.
‘Album only tracks’ = tracks are only sold as part of an entire album, not sold separately.

I fail to see the distinction here. If an album is added as ‘full album only’, all tracks on that album will automatically be ‘album only tracks’.

If an album is added as "full album only" (which can't be done by the artiste/label) then you wouldn't be able to buy individual tracks at all.

Whereas "album only tracks" suggests that you can buy most of the songs individually except perhaps track 12, which can only be downloaded if you buy the whole album (as suggested by the Tunecore quote I posted above).

I have no idea why we're talking about this distinction anyway. I thought this thread was solely about "full album only". But then I may have reading comprehension difficulties (according to some). I don't know.

But anyways. The problem is there - and it's that iTunes has too much control over how stuff is sold. The labels and artistes have no say at all over the sales structure ("full album only", "album tracks only") or price. This is why they're whining. And I agree with them.

[Oisín]

Whereas "album only tracks" suggests that you can buy most of the songs individually except perhaps track 12, which can only be downloaded if you buy the whole album.

That would be utterly, ridiculously silly.

I’ve been reading the whole thread as being about ‘full album only’, too, since I’d never even stretched my imagination far enough to imagine such oddness as the other option.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

That would be utterly, ridiculously silly.

I’ve been reading the whole thread as being about ‘full album only’, too, since I’d never even stretched my imagination far enough to imagine such oddness as the other option.

I guess you have never purchased music in the iTunes Store then. "Album only" tracks are nothing unusual there.

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...76137&s=143441

[analogika]

Guys.

IT. DOESN'T MATTER.

(and never argue with a German. )

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by analogika 

(and never argue with a German. )

...unless you're a Russian tank column.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by analogika 

(and never argue with a German. )

indeed

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

I guess you have never purchased music in the iTunes Store then. "Album only" tracks are nothing unusual there.

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...76137&s=143441

I haven’t bought very much from the iT(M)S, no; only about 60 songs all in all. But I’ve never seen that before, in all the browsing I’ve done there. Strange marketing plot (or whatever it is). Is it always only bonus tracks (like on the one you linked to), or is it just random songs here and there?

[lavar78]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

I haven’t bought very much from the iT(M)S, no; only about 60 songs all in all. But I’ve never seen that before, in all the browsing I’ve done there. Strange marketing plot (or whatever it is). Is it always only bonus tracks (like on the one you linked to), or is it just random songs here and there?

It's usually bonus tracks or long (7+ minutes) songs. I can't believe you've never seen it before (figuratively speaking).

[TETENAL]

Usually it's long songs that are album only. 7 minutes seems to be a popular cutoff time, but it's not a hard rule. If you look for Jazz music you see the "album only" songs all the time. Bonus tracks seems to be another common candidate, but I think some new release of big pop artists also contain them. Probably to push album sales to early adopters.

Originally Posted by analogika 

IT. DOESN'T MATTER.

Then why post in this thread?

It does indeed matter whether this is under the control of the artists. If so, Kid Rock could simply mark his hit singles as "album only" and thereby convince iTunes users to buy the whole thing.

(and never argue with a German. )

Because he tries to shout you down?

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by lavar78 

It's usually bonus tracks or long (7+ minutes) songs. I can't believe you've never seen it before (figuratively speaking).

Considering that half my browsing on there has been on artists such as Sigur Rós, múm, GY!BE, and others in that general category, whose songs tend to be about ten minutes each, I find it rather odd, too.

[ort888]

I just want to say that I met 2 genuine, no kidding fans of Kid Rock this weekend. I'm as shocked as you are.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by ort888 

I just want to say that I met 2 genuine, no kidding fans of Kid Rock this weekend. I'm as shocked as you are.

What were they wearing?

[- - e r i k - -]

Let me guess:

[Shaddim]

I don't buy single tracks, just like I don't buy pan-and-scan movies. I want to experience the artist/director's vision, not something that's cut, shaped, and packaged to appeal to "the masses".

Granted, I don't buy pop music, so I suppose none of this really has much to do with me. However, I can see how an artist could get irritated by this.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Then why post in this thread?

It does indeed matter whether this is under the control of the artists. If so, Kid Rock could simply mark his hit singles as "album only" and thereby convince iTunes users to buy the whole thing.

Please abstain from complaining about reading comprehension in the future - EVER.

I said it doesn't make a difference whether you're talking about "album-only tracks" or "album-only albums". For the sake of this discussion, they're the same thing.

The question of whether iTunes or the label decides which tracks, if any, are "album-only", *is* very much relevant to the thread - and it appears that erik is wrong, and Kid Rock's complaint is absolutely valid, since he and his label have no say in the matter.

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

Because he tries to shout you down?

That's one I'd *really* have left alone, if I were you.

[- - e r i k - -]

It appears that I am wrong indeed. I incorrectly assumed that labels were allowed to assign tracks "Album Only" at will (it certainly seems that way looking at some of the "Best Of" compilations there), while strongly being discouraged to do so. Instead it appears to be mostly a way to avoid having "bargain" 7 min+ tracks, too expensive short tracks and skirting complex liscencing issues on compilations (like movie soundtracks).

I'd even extend an apology to Doofy had he not gone below the belt. He's still a boneheaded prick though, so my other arguments still stand.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

I'd even extend an apology to Doofy had he not gone below the belt.

You were already below the belt, unless "anal" and "c***" describe above-the-belt body parts in your neck of the woods. Does everyone walk around on their hands down there in HM Prison Oz or what?

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

He's still a boneheaded prick though

Yeah. Goes with the job. Didn't think it was prerequisite for graphic designers though.

[analogika]

:: fetches popcorn ::

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Yeah. Goes with the job. Didn't think it was prerequisite for graphic designers though.

Zing!

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I don't buy single tracks something that's cut, shaped, and packaged to appeal to "the masses".

Well, not every single track on iTunes has been "cut, shaped, and packaged to appeal to 'the masses'".

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I want to experience the artist/director's vision.

While that's admirable, I don't have the inclination for such a purist lifestyle. I do try to embrace that vision upon a first sampling of a specific work, though.

[zro]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

It appears that I am wrong indeed. I incorrectly assumed that labels were allowed to assign tracks "Album Only" at will (it certainly seems that way looking at some of the "Best Of" compilations there), while strongly being discouraged to do so. Instead it appears to be mostly a way to avoid having "bargain" 7 min+ tracks, too expensive short tracks and skirting complex liscencing issues on compilations (like movie soundtracks).

That doesn't explain Raining Blood.

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/M...63442&s=143441

[analogika]

Not available in the German iTunes store.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

Well, not every single track on iTunes has been "cut, shaped, and packaged to appeal to 'the masses'".

It's how I look at an entire album, that it's presented to show the content in a particular way. Seldom do I just listen to a single track just to hear that track.

Example: "Us and Them" would feel wrong if I didn't get "Money" before and "Colour" after. Ya dig?

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

It's how I look at an entire album, that it's presented to show the content in a particular way. Seldom do I just listen to a single track just to hear that track.

Example: "Us and Them" would feel wrong if I didn't get "Money" before and "Colour" after. Ya dig?

Oh, I definitely dig. Just sayin' I'm incapable of such dedication, regardless of my recognizing some albums are much more cohesive pieces than others.

Tell me, how do you handle music in the car? I remember for a few years I'd have to wait for a song to complete before I'd get out*

*limited mostly to songs I really liked

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Dakar V 

Tell me, how do you handle music in the car? I remember for a few years I'd have to wait for a song to complete before I'd get out*

If you know the answer, why do you ask?

(I do occasionally sit in the car for a few more minutes before getting out.)

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by analogika 

If you know the answer, why do you ask?

What's the correct answer? I mean, if you believe in the sanctity of albums, don't you have to finish the album before you get out?

[analogika]

I've actually been known to just abort listening to an album when I've got the runny shits.

Sometimes, I'll even answer the phone.

It's a rare thing to let actual life take priority over musical listening preferences, though.

( )

[Shaddim]

I very very seldom listen to music in the car, usually it's tuned into NPR or the local talk radio station.

However, there are those times when I'm on a lonesome stretch of highway, foot to the floor and The Cult blasting to 11. Yeah, Sonic Temple will end before I slow down.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by analogika 

( )

I was kidding. I hoped the term sanctity would give it away, but I still accept the blame, as I couldn't bring myself to use an emoticon to properly convey my facetiousness.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I very very seldom listen to music in the car, usually it's tuned into NPR or the local talk radio station.

I figured as much.

And of course, sometimes it's just nice to listen to sound of the engine.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Rave is mainstream here in Europe. However, the same techniques apply to any popular music*.

(* Maybe not Primus)

Primus is about as popular as root canals. That said they're my favorite band.

[zro]

Primus sucks!

[Laminar]

I'd rather have a root canal.

[Dakar V]

I'm only acquainted with Primus thanks to Beavis & Butthead and the infamous Winona's Big brown Beaver (with accompanying video)

[sek929]

Originally Posted by zro 

Primus sucks!

Hell yeah!

[sek929]

Edit: DP

[turtle777]

Oh, cool, this developed into a flamefest.

-t