[olePigeon]

http://lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/

Woohoo! Come on Higgs bosen! Known universe needs a new pair of shoes!

This experiment is perhaps the most important experiment of modern science. It's the [seasonably appropriate final sports match] for Nerds!

[Doofy]

All that money wasted to satisfy the useless curiosity of silly little geeks when they haven't yet cured cancer or invented a dog which doesn't crap on my driveway.

I'll laugh my titties off if Geneva disappears in a puff of improbability.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

All that money wasted to satisfy the useless curiosity of silly little geeks when they haven't yet cured cancer or invented a dog which doesn't crap on my driveway.

Physicists generally have nothing to do with biochemistry and animal husbandry.

[Laminar]

Nonsense. "Science" is "science." There's no separation between fields.

[Maflynn]

I agree with Doof, we have enough issues in this society to stop worrying about how the universe was constructed. Why spend billions of dollars to smash atomic particles when there's so much hunger and poverty in the world.

[Dakar V]

What are we, incapable of multi-tasking?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

... when they haven't yet ... invented a dog which doesn't crap on my driveway.

They have. It's called a cat

-t

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Nonsense. "Science" is "science." There's no separation between fields.

Only if you're a mathematician.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

Why spend billions of dollars to smash atomic particles when there's so much hunger and poverty in the world.

Oh gods, you're right! We should be out feeding the hungry and ending poverty in the world! I can't believe no one ever thought of that.

Or you can just complain about it.

In any event, I'm down with understanding the universe and donating $5 to cancer research when I'm at the grocery store.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Maflynn 

I agree with Doof, we have enough issues in this society to stop worrying about how the universe was constructed. Why spend billions of dollars to smash atomic particles when there's so much hunger and poverty in the world.

Who's to say what they discover well past the sub-atomic level won't hold answers to those problems?

With all the money wasted on the stupidest mundane BS I like seeing billions going to the advancement of our species. The starving people? Screw em' They wouldn't have gotten anything out of those billions anyways.

[Shaddim]

I love to read about the advancements in physics, and they do have social value.


but, I do wonder if we might be better off if we put such expenditures on hold until we get certain economic issues sorted out.

In any event, I'm down with understanding the universe and donating $5 to cancer research when I'm at the grocery store.

How about giving that tax money to cancer research and donating $5 at the grocery store towards physics?

[RAILhead]

We could just zap the hungry into oblivion with the collider, couldn't we?

[sek929]

LHC = Large Homeless Collider

[Andrew Stephens]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

http://lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/

Woohoo! Come on Higgs bosen! Known universe needs a new pair of shoes!

This experiment is perhaps the most important experiment of modern science. It's the [seasonably appropriate final sports match] for Nerds!

Then undergoes several months of ramp up testing.

No higgs boson until 2009 I fear. Still no mini black holes till then either, so at least we get to see who wins the election before we are all sucked into a singularity.

For those whining about budgets, why not take the billions of US taxpayer dollars wasted here: http://nccam.nih.gov/
and give it to some real scientists.

Still it's not my money so what do I care.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

How about giving that tax money to cancer research and donating $5 at the grocery store towards physics?

Cuz you can't donate money to "physics" at the grocery store. I donate through my taxes, too. I usually put $5 on each of the categories except for Presidential candidates and religious funds.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

We could just zap the hungry into oblivion with the collider, couldn't we?

Win-Win

-t

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Andrew Stephens 

For those whining about budgets, why not take the billions of US taxpayer dollars wasted here: http://nccam.nih.gov/\

Oh... my... gods... I'd think it was a joke if it weren't for the .gov.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by sek929 

LHC = Large Homeless Collider

That sounds like the winning title to a flash cartoon.

[olePigeon]

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Cuz you can't donate money to "physics" at the grocery store

I'm sure someone has a NP to do such things. If not, it sounds like a good project to start.

[Andrew Stephens]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Oh... my... gods... I'd think it was a joke if it weren't for the .gov.

yeah a $125 million a year joke for the past 8 years. That means you've pissed away a cool $bill or so on quackery and snake oil.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Andrew Stephens 

yeah a $125 million a year joke for the past 8 years. That means you've pissed away a cool $bill or so on quackery and snake oil.

Past 8 years, so I don't have to guess which administration legitimized magnetic therapy and psychic surgery.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

All that money wasted to satisfy the useless curiosity of silly little geeks...

I thought I'd point out that you're arguing on an electronic bulletin board, running on a computing device, delivered over a network infrastructure that was all invented and/or discovered by the "useless" curiosity of silly little geeks.

Understanding how our universe works can possible deliver some of the most advanced technology and tools you could ever imagine. One of the tests includes detecting and indirectly observing gravitons (along with bosons.) Controlling the interaction of objects and gravitational forces.

If you could control gravity, what could you build? Think about that.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's useless or dangerous.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I thought I'd point out that you're arguing on an electronic bulletin board, running on a computing device, delivered over a network infrastructure that was all invented and/or discovered by the "useless" curiosity of silly little geeks.

Quoted for truth. Curiosity is never useless. I can't remember who said it, but science isn't so much about the Heureka, it's all about the that's strange.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I thought I'd point out that you're arguing on an electronic bulletin board, running on a computing device, delivered over a network infrastructure that was all invented and/or discovered by the "useless" curiosity of silly little geeks.

Most of which was invented out of need or for commercial gain, not out of idle curiosity.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Most of which was invented out of need or for commercial gain, not out of idle curiosity.

CERN doesn't exist because of idle curiosity either. It exists so we understand the world around us better. You may call that desire idle if you wish, but I for one put great value on that kind of idleness.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

It exists so we understand the world around us better.

No, it exists out of idle curiosity with a little arrogant pomposity thrown in for good measure.

If we were truly interested in the world around us, we'd be doing the simple stuff first. Like WTF is at the bottom of our oceans... ...curing cancer... ...that kind of thing.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No, it exists out of idle curiosity with a little arrogant pomposity thrown in for good measure.

If we were truly interested in the world around us, we'd be doing the simple stuff first. Like WTF is at the bottom of our oceans... ...curing cancer... ...that kind of thing.

Speaking of arrogant pomposity...

[Doofy]

Problem?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Problem?

Yeah. You're speaking in circles.

e.g. We haven't been finding out what's at the bottom of our oceans because there's no money in it.
e.g. We haven't cured cancer because there's already an enormous amount of money going into that problem, and adding more usually just has a diminishing effect.

...so in other words, even though you degrade CERN as just being built out of "idle curiosity"... an example you quote as being somehow better to pursue is merely just that.

Weird.

greg

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

e.g. We haven't been finding out what's at the bottom of our oceans because there's no money in it

Oh come on. For all we know there's zillions of "oilfish" (drink water, pee crude) down there.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

e.g. We haven't cured cancer because there's already an enormous amount of money going into that problem, and adding more usually just has a diminishing effect.

I'll give you that. But it ain't idle - it's the pursuit of immediate needs, ain't it?

[xi_hyperon]

How many things that we take for granted now are derived (many, accidentally) from the research of silly little geeks? Something to think about.

[ghporter]

Learning more about the very basic fabric of matter has so many applications beyond "idle curiosity" that it isn't even funny. For example, if we have proof of the Higgs boson, we will understand so much more about both the particles and the forces that hold them together, that we may be able to start working on USING those forces and particles. Bosons that could be accelerated and directed could be used to destroy "inoperable" tumors in the brain is just one example of what could be realized.

As for the national clearinghouse on alternative medicine, there IS something to alternative medicines, or they would all be well-dispelled as quackery and snake oil. Genuine chiropracters (those who don't promise to cure your cold by manipulating your spine) manage such a wide number of "cures" for what would appear to be neuromuscular ailments that it's astounding how poor their reputation is with "traditional" doctors. Like using biochemistry to determine what the active compounds in some herbal supplement are, so that they may be synthesized and kept to a known and consistent strength, understanding why acupuncture and chiropractic work could help explain a great deal about the connection between the neural system and the musculoskeletal system.

[Visnaut]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Most of which was invented out of need or for commercial gain, not out of idle curiosity.

That's bullsh*t. So many important discoveries were made through research that only later saw a true application as a technology that was actually useful. That's how it works: science is the study of phenomena, technology is the application of that phenomena to a useful end.

Do you think someone was looking for a way to peer into human bodies when they discovered X-rays? No, it started as the study of various types of EM radiation, done by experimental physicists not unlike the ones working on the LHC. Later, the benefits of the discovery were studied and refined to the point where it is today.

[Andrew Stephens]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

As for the national clearinghouse on alternative medicine, there IS something to alternative medicines, or they would all be well-dispelled as quackery and snake oil.

Yes that's right because so many people are convinced by logical reason. Good job those reports into 9/11 managed to shut those stupid conspiracy nutters up once and for all.

[brassplayersrock²]

wooo nelly andrew, this isn't the pwl.

I'm excited by the possible discoveries that this machine will make.

[shabbasuraj]

lamest thread of September.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Visnaut 

Do you think someone was looking for a way to peer into human bodies when they discovered X-rays? No, it started as the study of various types of EM radiation, done by experimental physicists not unlike the ones working on the LHC. Later, the benefits of the discovery were studied and refined to the point where it is today.

Uh, yeah. I'm pretty sure that's what Wilhelm Röntgen was up to when he was taking pictures of his wife's hand (it was even called Röntgen radiation). He presented his findings to University of Freiburg in the hopes that they would be able to make use of it for medical purposes, and pay him for it.

[PB2K]

I don't mind the price, they spend their money on worse things.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

All that money wasted to satisfy the useless curiosity of silly little geeks when they haven't yet cured cancer or invented a dog which doesn't crap on my driveway.

Particle accelerators (smaller ones) are used to treat certain kinds of cancer

The most modern one is in Germany (Heidelberg, although there were some experiments a the tandem accelerator in Garching), although AFAIK Berkeley has one, too. So far tests show that these treatments are vastly superior to conventional radiation therapy.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Uh, yeah. I'm pretty sure that's what Wilhelm Röntgen was up to when he was taking pictures of his wife's hand (it was even called Röntgen radiation). He presented his findings to University of Freiburg in the hopes that they would be able to make use of it for medical purposes, and pay him for it.

He did not set out to take pictures of his wife's hand bones, he discovered `accidentally' that this form of em radiation is not absorbed (significantly) by soft tissue, but by hard tissue. Of course, it is to his credit that he saw the medical applications, but he did not set out to do that in the first place.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

http://lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/

Woohoo! Come on Higgs bosen! Known universe needs a new pair of shoes!

This experiment is perhaps the most important experiment of modern science. It's the [seasonably appropriate final sports match] for Nerds!

Yeah, but can it divide by zero?

[-Q-]

Originally Posted by Andrew Stephens 

No higgs boson until 2009 I fear. Still no mini black holes till then either, so at least we get to see who wins the election before we are all sucked into a singularity.

What? Crap. Been spending on my credit cards left and right b/c I was sure the world was going to be sucked into a micro black hole next week....

[Goldfinger]

I think this stuff is very exciting even though I barely understand most of it. What intrigues me a lot is how they are going to see/measure the stuff they are going to create. Isn't there a possibility that ALICE and the others aren't able to pick up anything since they don't really know exactly what to look for. Will the dectection systems in ALICE be sufficient? Or do I really don't know what I'm talking about ?

ALICE can apparently deliver a datastream of more than 20 terabytes/sec. Pretty incredible. But they apparantly can't record such a datastream. They will be selecting parts out of the stream.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Genuine chiropracters (those who don't promise to cure your cold by manipulating your spine) manage such a wide number of "cures" for what would appear to be neuromuscular ailments that it's astounding how poor their reputation is with "traditional" doctors

If there are any "genuine" chiropractors, it is because they also hold a PhD in physical therapy or related field. There is no certified medical board that governs chiropractic. Anyone can be a chiropractor, you just have to have people sign a waiver that if you injure them, you are not responsible.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Chiropractic work could help explain a great deal about the connection between the neural system and the musculoskeletal system.

Through trial and error on human subjects? They should work for PETA and ALF. Chiropractic is a scam, period. There are already established fields of study that cover everything that "genuine" Chiropractors offer "cures" for.

Why would you see someone who has absolutely no medical certification, degree, or area of study certified by a medical board? They're quacks. They sell you what you want to hear.

The #1 major complication with Chiropractic is stroke. Then people are crippled for life with no legal recourse.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger 

I think this stuff is very exciting even though I barely understand most of it. What intrigues me a lot is how they are going to see/measure the stuff they are going to create. Isn't there a possibility that ALICE and the others aren't able to pick up anything since they don't really know exactly what to look for. Will the dectection systems in ALICE be sufficient? Or do I really don't know what I'm talking about ?

Yeah, it's going to be very difficult. One of the particles they hope to indirectly observe are gravitons, the things mostly responsible for the gravitational force. However, the problem with gravitons is that -- according calculations -- they behave like light. You can't see an individual photon because they have no mass, but you can measure it in a wave. Similarly, gravitons may not be seen, but we may be able to detect them as a wave.

[Doofy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7603257.stm

The most brilliant minds should be directed to solving Earth's greatest challenges, such as climate change dogs pooping on Doof's lawn, says Sir David King.

The former UK chief scientist will use his presidential address at the BA Science Festival to call for a gear-change among innovative thinkers.

He will suggest that less time and money is spent on endeavours such as space exploration and particle physics.

He says population growth and poverty in Africa also demand attention.

[Andrew Stephens]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7603257.stm

to paraphrase

UK govt scientist says we don't want to allocate funding to space science so we should be looking at other areas that are, coincidentally, cheaper.

context: The current UK government has massively cocked up funding to the physical sciences resulting in the near withdrawal of the UK from the worldwide network of countries funding (and thus able to use) international telescopes, huge funding deficits in UK based physical science programmes and no contributions from the UK to the ESA.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/mai...physics130.xml

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Oh no, there's a devastating rebuttal, based on political subterfuge, to an argument Doofy has raised? He's not gonna like that at all.

greg

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Oh come on. For all we know there's zillions of "oilfish" (drink water, pee crude) down there.

Actually, for all we know, there AREN't (and in fact, we know enough to be pretty sure of this).

There IS, however, a large amount of hydrated methane pellets on the ocean floor, which would be an excellent fuel source, provided somebody works out a way to harvest them from a couple of kilometers below sea level that ends up still being cheaper than regular fossil fuels. My hunch is nobody will until regular fossil fuels simply become much more expensive than harvesting methane pellets.