[Eug]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Well, we do have this thing called EFI, which is smart enough to negotiate it...

...if Apple decides it wants to spend the time implementing it. I think the absence of USB target mode on the MacBook Air is indicative of Apple's direction.

[MallyMal]

Apple dropped Firewire 800 on the first generation MBP. People complained(I think) and Firewire 800 returned in the second generation 'books.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by MallyMal 

Apple dropped Firewire 800 on the first generation MBP. People complained(I think) and Firewire 800 returned in the second generation 'books.

Really? If so there's hope yet!

Also giving us a ray of hope was the absence of DVI on the 12" PowerBook, and then DVI was added later.

However, the difference here is that the 12" PowerBook didn't exist before the DVI-less version was introduced.

[MallyMal]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Really? If so there's hope yet!

They sure did. Perhaps Apple will include Firewire again on the second generation aluminum Macbook. They will tout it as a professional feature that yesterday you would have had to spend $700 more for.

[goMac]

With the removable hard disks, I don't know if Firewire Disk mode is that huge a deal. Just pop out the HD, plug it in via SATA or put it in an enclosure.

I think the bigger issue is with camcorders.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by goMac 

With the removable hard disks, I don't know if Firewire Disk mode is that huge a deal. Just pop out the HD, plug it in via SATA or put it in an enclosure.

Except someone's more likely to have a Firewire cable lying around than an enclosure that can hold 2.5" drives.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by goMac 

With the removable hard disks, I don't know if Firewire Disk mode is that huge a deal. Just pop out the HD, plug it in via SATA or put it in an enclosure.

My iMac doesn't have a removable drive. It does have FW disk mode, but I can't use it if my MacBook doesn't have a FW port.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by MallyMal 

Apple dropped Firewire 800 on the first generation MBP. People complained(I think) and Firewire 800 returned in the second generation 'books.

Exactly. The MBP got FW800 when it didn't have it before, and the iMac got FW800 when it had never had it. So there is precedent for Apple to increase the presence of FW800 across its lineup. FW400 is most likely dead at this point, but if we all let Apple know that we want FW800, there's a chance, albeit small, that we might eventually get FW800 on the MacBook. Despite its problems, FireWire does have a bit of a chance at a future with the renewal of development on things like FW3200, and putting a FW800 port in current devices would make it very easy to swap it for these new developments later on. So, let Apple know that you want FireWire back - if enough people do, they might put FW800 on the MacBook, which would be better than the aging FW400 on the old ones anyway.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macbook.html

[mitchell_pgh]

Most modern USB camera have USB these days... I guess if you're holding on to an older camera, sure, this is a big deal. I'm not so sure it will translate into the end user caring.

[p.a.h.]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Tape is on its way out.

For sure.

Compact Flash, P2, SXS, etc.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

Most modern USB camera have USB these days... I guess if you're holding on to an older camera, sure, this is a big deal. I'm not so sure it will translate into the end user caring.

This just in! USB cameras have USB! Full story at 11!

Welcome back?

[::maroma::]

This all sounds so familiar. Replace "Firewire" with "floppy drive" and we've just gone back in time.

I say give it a while to sink in, and I'm willing to lay down some cash on the fact that everything will be fine and the world will move on and Apple will continue to be a profitable company, even without Firewire.

But don't quote me on that (unless it turns out to be true, then you can praise me).

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

This all sounds so familiar. Replace "Firewire" with "floppy drive" and we've just gone back in time.

Did you say that just to be irritating? Firewire in 2008 is far more important and relevant than 1.44MB floppy drives were in 1998.

[::maroma::]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Did you say that just to be irritating? Firewire in 2008 is far more important and relevant than 1.44MB floppy drives were in 1998.

Did it irritate you? If so, then yes.

And what you just said is what some people said about floppy drives back then. "They're still relevant! Really they are!"

[Big Mac]

Yeah, that's very irritating. It's also flame bait as far as I'm concerned.

[RAILhead]

[RAILhead]

Looks like pretty much all of Canon's new standard and hi-def camcorders are USB...

[Big Mac]

Yeah, because they're hard drive or memory card based, neither of which I would touch. The HV30, which replaced my HV20, remains miniDV based and still uses Firewire. Also, Canon doesn't explicitly mention 1394 in the HV30 specs online but the unit has it, so other models may also have it.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Yeah, because they're hard drive or memory card based, neither of which I would touch. The HV30, which replaced my HV20, remains miniDV based and still uses Firewire. Also, Canon doesn't explicitly mention 1394 in the HV30 specs online but the unit has it, so other models may also have it.

I guess you didn't see the big logo on the HV30's page, or am I missing something?

[Big Mac]

Oh, they all have USB, but at least the HV30 also has 1394. It's just not advertised anymore, unfortunately. So when you say "pretty much all of Canon's new standard and hi-def camcorders are USB" that implies that they not only have USB but have it to the exclusion of Firewire, which isn't true in at least the HV30's case.

[RAILhead]

Wow -- you're just looking for stuff to nitpick and bitch about, eh?

[Big Mac]

No, I thought you were saying Canon no longer includes Firewire on any new camcorders, so I was trying to clear up an inaccuracy.

[BadKosh]

FireWire 800 and 1600 are far better and reliable than USB. Do USB hard drives boot into 10.5? Haven't tried it. Dumbing down the devices to make them more PCentric is pretty lame. Maybe Jobs had a stroke or something?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Looks like pretty much all of Canon's new standard and hi-def camcorders are USB...

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Yeah, because they're hard drive or memory card based, neither of which I would touch. The HV30, which replaced my HV20, remains miniDV based and still uses Firewire. Also, Canon doesn't explicitly mention 1394 in the HV30 specs online but the unit has it, so other models may also have it.

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

I guess you didn't see the big logo on the HV30's page, or am I missing something?

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Oh, they all have USB, but at least the HV30 also has 1394. It's just not advertised anymore, unfortunately. So when you say "pretty much all of Canon's new standard and hi-def camcorders are USB" that implies that they not only have USB but have it to the exclusion of Firewire, which isn't true in at least the HV30's case.

According to the Canon VIXIA HV30 manual (pages 76-78), FireWire must be used to transfer video. USB is for still images.

Transferring Video Recordings

You can transfer recordings to a computer using the HDV/DV terminal.

Equipment and System Requirements
- A computer equipped with an IEEE1394 (DV) terminal or an IEEE1394 (DV) capture board
- A DV cable (commercially available)
- Video editing software
- The appropriate driver

---

BTW, I've tried a couple MPEG2 DVD based camcorders, and they really did suck. The MPEG2 compression was really obvious with fast motion. Maybe they've improved though by now, I don't know. I have not yet tried an AVCHD camcorder however.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by bonniescotland 

Apple getting rid of firewire on macbooks really sux, and is such a stupid decision! Yeah they might as well just get rid of imovie too on a macbook! Good luck for all those people who will try and edit through USB2!

Originally Posted by bonniescotland 

The thing is the less professional the video editor the more they need firewire, because USB is so hard to edit with, that people who don't understand too much about filmmaking and editing found the firewire/imovie combo of macbook great because there wasn't too much troubleshooting. Trying to use USB2 means you actually have to be a bit of a video expert to get it to work.

Huh? Using USB2 to transfer video from a flash/HDD camcorder to iMovie 08 is incredibly easy and much faster than the slow realtime importing that DV/Firewire requires. It's so easy even my father can do it.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Firewire was created to be a much smarter interface.

Unfortunately it failed with a brain dead plug design + power regulation (resulting in fried ports) and issues when you tried to use more than one device (even Apple couldn't get it right!).

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Did you say that just to be irritating? Firewire in 2008 is far more important and relevant than 1.44MB floppy drives were in 1998.

I think you need to step back a bit and realize how small the Firewire userbase is.

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

Do USB hard drives boot into 10.5?

Intel Macs can boot off USB; PowerPC Macs can not.

Originally Posted by Eug 

BTW, I've tried a couple MPEG2 DVD based camcorders, and they really did suck. The MPEG2 compression was really obvious with fast motion. Maybe they've improved though by now, I don't know. I have not yet tried an AVCHD camcorder however.

Going with MPEG2 for HDV was a terrible choice, and has only added another reason for people to move away from tape. AVCHD looks great even at moderate bitrates (11Mbps), although of course you have to inflate it to edit in iMovie.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Going with MPEG2 for HDV was a terrible choice, and has only added another reason for people to move away from tape.

??? MiniDV tape generally does not use MPEG2, which was my point. MiniDV generally looks much better than MPEG2 DVD, at least when I've seen examples of both.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Huh? Using USB2 to transfer video from a flash/HDD camcorder to iMovie 08 is incredibly easy and much faster than the slow realtime importing that DV/Firewire requires. It's so easy even my father can do it.

But more importantly, could a caveman?

[Dakar V]

lulz

[Laminar]

When making that post, the possibility that you wouldn't see my post tomorrow morning worried me. Fortunately, I don't have to live in a world where that possibility is a reality.

[Dakar V]

Sure, bite the hand that feeds you.

[Stogieman]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

This all sounds so familiar. Replace "Firewire" with "floppy drive" and we've just gone back in time.

Not really. At least you had the option to connect an external floppy drive to the USB port thus allowing you to still use your floppy disks. There's no such option for us with Firewire devices like miniDV camcorders. Sure camcorders are moving over from miniDV to AVCHD but we still got a few years to go before that transition is complete.

BTW, where have you been? Dakar & Sek have been paging you in the Halo 3 thread.

[CharlesS]

There's also no alternative to Target Mode as far as I'm aware.

[Big Mac]

At least I now know that there's no extra space for an additional port on this MacBook's logic board, at least not on the left side where all the ports are being put on these models.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by ::maroma:: 

Did it irritate you? If so, then yes.

And what you just said is what some people said about floppy drives back then. "They're still relevant! Really they are!"

Very different situation

There weren't entire industries based around floppy drives, and floppies were easily replaceable (through e-mail and CD burning).

The audio and video industries are based around Firewire, and there is no alternative (that doesn't require expansion cards).

That is why the MacBook Pro still has FW800, and why Firewire won't be going away anytime soon.

But not having a 13" alternative once the plastic MacBook is gone will suck, royally.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Intel Macs can boot off USB; PowerPC Macs can not.

The original G3 PowerMac and bondi iMac CAN boot off USB (not that you'd want to boot OS X over a 12Mbit interface ).

Apparently, one of the 10.4.x updates also added USB booting ability to some of the later (G4/G5?) models, but I haven't verified this myself, yet.

[Big Mac]

Certain G4 models, yeah. I don't think any G5s can do it.

[JoshuaZ]

But without Firewire how can I use my old iSight camera! Or rev b iPod!!!! NooooOOOOooooOOoo!!!!

As much as I hate to say this, Apple probably made the right move taking out firewire. USB 2 is the way the consumer market has moved.

Though they probably should have added an extra USB port to make up for it.

[Big Mac]

Those who are saying Firewire was rightfully cut out are simply wrong. There are too many devices that make use of it still being manufactured and sold in the consumer market, let alone the professional market, and it's also important due to Target Disk Mode. USB is not a replacement for Firewire, not today nor tomorrow and no matter how fast future incarnations may get. The real reason why Firewire was cut from the MacBook seems to be that there was no space left for it on the left side of the logic board.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Those who are saying Firewire was rightfully cut out are simply wrong. There are too many devices that make use of it still being manufactured and sold in the consumer market, let alone the professional market, and it's also important due to Target Disk Mode. USB is not a replacement for Firewire, not today nor tomorrow and no matter how fast future incarnations may get.

I'm afraid you're wrong, and you'll just have to face reality, as much as you hate to (as do I):

For the consumer market, it HAS ALREADY REPLACED Firewire.

There are virtually no devices sold in the consumer market that have a Firewire port that don't also have USB as an alternative (except for a small handful of low-end audio interfaces, I can't think of a single one).



The pro market is different. But the pro market is decidedly NOT the target for the MacBook - Apple has just made that clear.


And as for Target Disk Mode: The fact that you can remove the internal drive within *seconds* and hook it up to an external SATA connector somewhat obsoletes TDM as a service tool.

*sigh*

[vmarks]

I'm thinking of getting one of those dual dock sata 2.5/3.5 devices. I can plunk in two drives, connect them via usb2/esata/firewire and image away.

[OreoCookie]

I agree with analogika. I much prefer FireWire for many reasons (a plug that makes it obvious which way it goes in, no hubs, I can daisy chain my devices, powers 2.5" harddrives in enclosures without any problems), but FireWire is a dying technology for consumers.

The `space on logic board argument' doesn't convince me: if Steve thought it was an essential feature, they would have found space on the motherboard, and if he had to bend the space-time continuum personally

Personally, IMO an eSATA port is missing! The chipset apparently has six SATA interfaces, so they could have included one or two ports for external harddrives.

[analogika]

Apple won't add eSATA until the bus-powered connector hits the market.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

The `space on logic board argument' doesn't convince me: if Steve thought it was an essential feature, they would have found space on the motherboard, and if he had to bend the space-time continuum personally

It's my argument so I may be wrong, but look at the MB logic board image posted by Simon elsewhere and tell me where there's space on the left side for an additional port. The MBP logic board has room to spare on the left side for additional ports to spare, but the MB board does not. They had to make a decision based on a lack of space and the decision was that Firewire was less essential than the other ports.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

It's my argument so I may be wrong, but look at the MB logic board image posted by Simon elsewhere and tell me where there's space on the left side for an additional port.

I have seen the picture alright. I'm saying that if Steve wanted a FireWire port, he would have had his team put one in and change the logic board design if necessary.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Apple won't add eSATA until the bus-powered connector hits the market.

Good point.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

This just in! USB cameras have USB! Full story at 11!

Welcome back?

What I meant to say was... most modern video cameras have USB.

I went to the Best Buy site and it was hard to find one that didn't.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

What I meant to say was... most modern video cameras have USB.

I went to the Best Buy site and it was hard to find one that didn't.

Having USB doesn't guarantee the ability to transfer video via USB. For the DV based machines, USB is used for still pictures etc.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Eug 

??? MiniDV tape generally does not use MPEG2, which was my point. MiniDV generally looks much better than MPEG2 DVD, at least when I've seen examples of both.

Why are you comparing 25MBps DV on miniDV to <10Mbps (perhaps as low as 2-5Mbps) realtime encoded MPEG2 on DVD? That doesn't make any sense.
HDV is MPEG2 on miniDV tape and looks better than DV at the same bitrate.

Originally Posted by Laminar 

But more importantly, could a caveman?

Why would I repeat myself?

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

USB is not a replacement for Firewire, not today nor tomorrow and no matter how fast future incarnations may get.

Have you read the USB3 spec? I'm guessing no.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I much prefer FireWire for many reasons (a plug that makes it obvious which way it goes in

Huh? The S800 connector is just as subtle as, if not more so, USB in terms of connector orientation.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Why are you comparing 25MBps DV on miniDV to <10Mbps (perhaps as low as 2-5Mbps) realtime encoded MPEG2 on DVD? That doesn't make any sense.

Of course it does, in the context of the consumer market. Now that Apple has dropped FireWire from the new MacBook, some people are pushing USB-endowed machines for the consumer market, for MacBook owners.

My point is that this can be very misleading advice.

1) Many USB-endowed camcorders can't actually use USB to transfer video.
2) For those that can use USB to transfer video, they often suck in quality. No, you don't have to buy these crappy units, but that's simply the reality of the market. They are all over the place, and for an uninitiated consumer looking for a low cost machine with USB video transfer support, that's often is going to be what's available.

Ironically, you're agreeing with me, that low bitrate MPEG2 gives lousy video quality. Why am I comparing much higher bitrate miniDV? Because you can get that kind of video quality in the same price range. Yes, being a tape based medium it does have numerous inconveniences, but for the same amount of money, I'd rather deal with tape than with low bitrate MPEG2.

In the HD market, some people have also reported more problems with video editing from AVCHD material, but I dunno if that's the case with iMovie. It is definitely the case with Windows though.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by analogika 

And as for Target Disk Mode: The fact that you can remove the internal drive within *seconds* and hook it up to an external SATA connector somewhat obsoletes TDM as a service tool.

No it doesn't, because the hard drive is not user-removable in many of Apple's machines (the Mac mini and the iMac, for instance, as well as all MBP models prior to the current one, and all PPC-based laptops).

If you want to fix those machines without a massive hassle, you need a laptop with a FireWire port.