[Andrew Stephens]

Remember the good old days when Apple would sell you a Mac, as long as you could work out if you wanted a Quadra 700, 800, 900, 850, 950, Performa , LC, etc etc etc. I bet there must have been some models that only sold 3 or 4 units.

Then we had Steve's rigid vision of the matrix. The two by two grid of Pro and Consumer Macs and it seemed to work.

But looking at the line up now (well the laptop line) we have the MacBooks and the MacBook Pro's which now look indentical, except for the MacBook that's white, (for some reason) but has a faster CPU than the slower Aluminium MacBook, and the 17in MBP, which is silver all over.

I can sort of sense confusion in the force. Maybe the Apple marketing bods are trying to cover more bases and Steve hasn't got the energy to fight them?

[Big Mac]

We could use more choice. Like a MacBook that isn't crippled with int-degraded graphics and no Firewire. Or a consumer-grade tower.

[Eriamjh]

Yeah. All that money Apple has made since Jobs came back doesn't compare to what they lost in the good ol' days.

The Macbook is basically the 12" powerbook of old. It's hard to offer a full-featured notebook without calling it "pro". I lament the dropping of FW, but there is a blurred line now between them. Ultimately, price is what makes it consumer and I find the 13" Macbook at $1300 and $1600 is too much for me. I paid $1500 for a refurbed MBP and I can't imagine paying more for less.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Eriamjh 

Yeah. All that money Apple has made since Jobs came back doesn't compare to what they lost in the good ol' days.

The Macbook is basically the 12" powerbook of old. It's hard to offer a full-featured notebook without calling it "pro". I lament the dropping of FW, but there is a blurred line now between them. Ultimately, price is what makes it consumer and I find the 13" Macbook at $1300 and $1600 is too much for me. I paid $1500 for a refurbed MBP and I can't imagine paying more for less.

a) Apple knows that a lot of purchases are made via price - which is why they'll continue to offer the plastic MacBook for a while yet.

b) "Paying more for less" rolls nicely off the tongue, but comparing a last-generation refurb Pro to a current, new MacBook is rather disingenuous, don't you think? Especially since to a lot of the market, a smaller form factor is "more".

c) Firewire (800) is apparently one of the distinguishing criteria between Pro and consumer. What I don't quite understand yet is how FW800 made it onto the iMac - which also sits squarely between "pro" and "consumer" - "prosumer", if you will - and whether it will stay.

[mitchell_pgh]

In my opinion, we haven't seen a consumer tower in years. I remember ~6 years ago, you could get a tower for < $1500. It wasn't fancy, but it was a tower. In fact, I'm still using that tower to this day (primarily as a media warehouse)

Literally apple, throw this in a Mac Pro tower and charge $1699
- 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
- 2GB memory
- 320GB hard drive1
- 8x double-layer SuperDrive
- ATI Radeon HD 2600 PRO with 256MB

I still enjoy having a few nice big hard drives IN the computer. Also, I HATE the idea of the monitor being connected to the CPU.

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by analogika 

What I don't quite understand yet is how FW800 made it onto the iMac - which also sits squarely between "pro" and "consumer" - "prosumer", if you will - and whether it will stay.

It certainly is counter-intuitive to much of what has been done to the machines in the past.

[Railroader]

The choice "matrix" has certainly made my life more complicated. Prior to this week, I could simply recommend to people to get a MacBook or a iMac. Now, I'll have to be more specific and tell them which MacBook to get, what color it should be. And with some people, that is going to be a major hassle.

[olePigeon]

Since Apple is making tons of money, it'd be nice if they reintroduced a few "loss" products with more choice.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

The choice "matrix" has certainly made my life more complicated. Prior to this week, I could simply recommend to people to get a MacBook or a iMac. Now, I'll have to be more specific and tell them which MacBook to get, what color it should be. And with some people, that is going to be a major hassle.

Well, this is the product "transition" that Apple announced last quarter, so I assume it's going to be a transitional phenomenon.

(also, it used to be colors, before: I had to explain to every customer what differentiates the black model. We're still on three MacBook models, instead of the high-end being black, the low-end model is now white. Big deal.)

[Dakar V]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Since Apple is making tons of money, it'd be nice if they reintroduced a few "loss" products with more choice.

They have ZERO incentive to do that. They're gaining marketshare as it is, with their 'limited' profitable choices.

[ort888]

Consumer tower please.

Or just take the mini and instead of focusing on making it small, focus on making it cheap and more expandable.

[Dakar V]

How about do anything to the mini (other than discontinuing it).

[ort888]

When was the last time they updated that thing? A year ago? The $599 price is a fraking joke at this point.

[Dakar V]

I'm sure it has to do with the Apple TV.

Edit: 436 days since update.

[Goldfinger]

With every release the Mac hardware gets less and less appealing to me. Apple really is getting to arrogant. I can understand that they want simple boxes but at least give us some serious BTO options. High res screens, matte screens, RAM at normal prices, eSata, ExpressCard, FW and so on.

[paul w]

Originally Posted by ort888 

When was the last time they updated that thing? A year ago? The $599 price is a fraking joke at this point.

The first place I turned after the disappointing firewire and glossy display issue was the Mini (I have a nice external display). Now I'm basically left without a sensible non-glossy firewire option. Let's see if Apple throws us inbetweeners some love...

[Big Mac]

Peace and Love, Peace and Love Apple!

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Like a MacBook that isn't crippled with int-degraded graphics and no Firewire.

I'll give you the Firewire, but the new integrated graphics on the new MacBook are much, much better than the Intel graphics on the old one. The 9400M graphics are pretty much the equivalent of the separate GPU except that they take a portion of system memory like Intel's did.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Andrew Stephens 

But looking at the line up now (well the laptop line) we have the MacBooks and the MacBook Pro's which now look indentical, except for the MacBook that's white, (for some reason) but has a faster CPU than the slower Aluminium MacBook, and the 17in MBP, which is silver all over.?

The 17 inch MPB will gain the new design of the 15 inch one. It will take a bit more time. Rather than announce now and ship 8 weeks later, they've kept the current model with a few tweaks.

Time will tell whether the white MacBook goes away or not.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

In my opinion, we haven't seen a consumer tower in years. I remember ~6 years ago, you could get a tower for < $1500. It wasn't fancy, but it was a tower. In fact, I'm still using that tower to this day (primarily as a media warehouse)

Literally apple, throw this in a Mac Pro tower and charge $1699
- 2.8GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
- 2GB memory
- 320GB hard drive1
- 8x double-layer SuperDrive
- ATI Radeon HD 2600 PRO with 256MB

I still enjoy having a few nice big hard drives IN the computer. Also, I HATE the idea of the monitor being connected to the CPU.

The problem is that the Core 2 Duo isn't compatible with the Mac Pro boards. Apple would basically have to design a system from scratch, and at that point you know Jobs isn't going to let them just throw it in the same case as the Mac Pro...

Such a product wouldn't be part of the Mac Pro family.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger 

With every release the Mac hardware gets less and less appealing to me. Apple really is getting to arrogant. I can understand that they want simple boxes but at least give us some serious BTO options. High res screens, matte screens, RAM at normal prices, eSata, ExpressCard, FW and so on.

Actually, I'm impressed, the new Macbooks seem to have semi-decent prices on RAM. They aren't bargain prices, but they aren't bad either.

[ort888]

Well, sorta. I just bought 4 gigs of MacBook RAM for $35 after rebate. Apple charges $150 to upgrade to 4 gigs... which in theory includes the value of removing the 2 gigs you start with.

4 gigs of MacBook RAM with no discount is $70 at several reputable namebrand RAM vendors.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Well, sorta. I just bought 4 gigs of MacBook RAM for $35 after rebate. Apple charges $150 to upgrade to 4 gigs... which in theory removes the price of the 2 gigs you start with.

4 gigs of MacBook RAM with no discount is $70 at several reputable namebrand RAM vendors.

Oh, apparently I'm out of the loop for consumer RAM then.

I'm on a Mac Pro right now, so I guess Apple's RAM prices just SEEM cheap for a consumer system. Although I'm thinking about one of the new Macbook Pro's if I get steady income here (student right now). The case design seems more solid, but I still worry about pitting.

[Brien]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger 

With every release the Mac hardware gets less and less appealing to me. Apple really is getting to arrogant. I can understand that they want simple boxes but at least give us some serious BTO options. High res screens, matte screens, RAM at normal prices, eSata, ExpressCard, FW and so on.

Yeah, I don't get why there's not a 1680x1050 option on the new 15". I'd gladly pay $100 or so for it, too.

[Hawkeye_a]

the 2X2 matrix was awesome and i miss it. Despite being a 'techie' i liked Apple's products cause the process of choosing, buying and using the products were simple. there aught to be a clear distinction between consumer and pro machines and that line has become way too thin between the pro-side and the con-side. bad move imo.

Talk about complicating...now you get to 'choose' when you want to use integrated or dedicated graphics processors ? thats ridiculous, and a first for Apple's products imo. whats the matter with them ? At a time when they need to stay focused (the way the economy is) theyre fumbling.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a 

the 2X2 matrix was awesome and i miss it. Despite being a 'techie' i liked Apple's products cause the process of choosing, buying and using the products were simple. there aught to be a clear distinction between consumer and pro machines and that line has become way too thin between the pro-side and the con-side. bad move imo.

Hence removing Firewire from the MacBooks to distinguish them from the MacBook Pros. The vast majority of people buying MacBooks (NOT the people here... we're tech-heads) couldn't care less that there's no Firewire. Most of them don't know what Firewire is. Also, people buying MacBooks don't get a choice between integrated/non-integrated graphics.

Talk about complicating...now you get to 'choose' when you want to use integrated or dedicated graphics processors ? thats ridiculous, and a first for Apple's products imo. whats the matter with them ? At a time when they need to stay focused (the way the economy is) theyre fumbling.

They are certainly NOT fumbling. Most people who buy MacBook Pros are people who NEED that power and certainly appreciate being able to choose a lower power option when doing things that don't require a beefy graphics chip.

Prior to this generation, you had a computer with a beefy graphics chip that was always on, sucking power whether you were playing the latest 3D game or just surfing the web. Now, when you're on battery and don't want to play a game, you can save more battery life than you could otherwise, by switching to the integrated chip. This gives us more flexibility, not less.

[Salty]

I think honestly removing Firewire is a had choice for me, but overall I can understand why they did it. Most new cameras are going to be using USB, it makes sense for Apple to really one use the one port.

As for having a prosumer Mac tower, I'd love it but sadly it's not gonna happen. Thankfully aside from internal HDs and graphics cards the iMac is pretty expandable. I've been trying to decide what my next machine will be, and it'll probably be a new iMac rather than another MacBook since my MacBook still has some fight left in it.

[Big Mac]

The problem is that Apple is missing out on what I believe is a major market: Those who need a desktop but will never touch a mini or an iMac and can't afford a MP. They want a traditional midrange tower.

[sek929]

God knows I would have bought another sub $2000 tower, but I had to settle on an iMac instead.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger 

With every release the Mac hardware gets less and less appealing to me. Apple really is getting to arrogant. I can understand that they want simple boxes but at least give us some serious BTO options. High res screens, matte screens, RAM at normal prices, eSata, ExpressCard, FW and so on.

What, you can't get matte screens anymore? Say it ain't so!

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

The problem is that Apple is missing out on what I believe is a major market: Those who need a desktop but will never touch a mini or an iMac and can't afford a MP. They want a traditional midrange tower.

According to sales numbers, your belief just isn't so. What I'm guessing you're basing your belief on is upgradability for home users, which obviously is a problem for iMac customers. The problem with building a cheap upgradable machine is that, in fact, most home users, which is a vastly larger market than DIY, don't upgrade video cards, hard drives, processors, etc. Apple would be building a machine for a relatively small market, and it quite simply doesn't need to do so. Its sales keep going up, with more and more Windows switchers getting on board because they've heard great things about the Mac from a friend or family member who has had one for a while, or even from those who recently switched and simply tell their acquaintances how happy they are. That's one of the problems with talking about this subject on a board like this; we tend to be a little more tech savvy, so we would naturally yearn for such a product, but we're still a small market, when compared with the tens of millions of off-the-shelf Windows and Mac boxes sold every year. Most Windows users who build their own machines are more than likely gamers, and that seems to a market that Apple isn't that interested in.

As to the OP's statement about being able to buy umpteen different models, he obviously wasn't in Apple sales at the time they were available, and doesn't remember how many of those models collected dust in Mac reseller stores and places like Sears, Best Buy, and CompUSA, which all sold Macs in those days. There's a reason Steve went back to a basic matrix, and it's because Apple can't afford to make many configurations of the same machine, with the difference often only being hard drive size and memory. Apple was on the precipice not that many years ago, and one of the main reasons they came back was because they focused on providing a few good models for the majority of their customers, and not models that would only sell a few units each year. Even today, although Apple is a much larger company, it wouldn't make sense for them to go back to that business model. HP and Dell offer a bewildering array of machines, and I know from experience that many of them are deeply discounted when new models are introduced, because certain models just don't sell.