[mattyb]

So, would you ?

I've configured it to have :

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9650 / 4x 3,0 GHz
8GB DDR2 800 MHz / Dual-Channel
Zotac GeForce GTS 250 AMP! 1024MB
2 X 300GB 10000rpm 16MB / S-ATA 2
etc etc
2153€ this includes shipping and tax.

I'm tempted, TBH. But I feel that I'd be reliving my Linux days when I was scared of updating anything in case it broke.

[moep]

I don’t think I would, no. Their offer seems very expensive.

I put together a i7 920 Nehalem System with two 4780 1GB cards, two 60 GB OCZ SSDs (Apple RAID0 for the boot disk) and two 1 TB Samsungs for Storage and it cost me roughly what you listed above.
As an added bonus I’m able to run the processor at 4 Ghz without any hickups.

I guess it depends… if you want the closest possible Apple-like Plug and Play experience with a price premium, consider PearPC.
Otherwise build your own and prepare to spend anywhere between 1-3 days browsing insanelymac to get it working.

As for updating, using certain methods you can install Mac OS X on a PC using a retail DVD and no modifications to the OS or hardware.
The bootloader and all additional required drivers will be stored in the hidden 200MB EFI partition which OS X completely ignores.
As a result there are zero kernel or kext hacks required and nothing will break on updates since what you are running is a 100% plain vanilla OS X installation. Very cool stuff… until SL is released. :/

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

So, would you ?

No.

Now stop dicking about and go buy a Mac Pro.

[olePigeon]

Those aren't Xeons.

[sek929]

Looks like they developed a time machine and went back to the early 90s to purchase their cases.

[olePigeon]

Do I see a Turbo button?

[sek929]

"Look, when I press this button it goes from 66mhz to 100mhz!"

Why would you not have the button pressed all the time then?

"uh....."

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

2153€

If you dislike Apple enough to spend over 2000€ in something like that I would suggest you a new Sun Ultra 24 workstation which under Sun's Try & Buy program is only 640€, which gives you plenty of room to buy a refurbished Apple laptop from Apple Store France.

[mattyb]

And why would I want to buy anything from Sun? Can I get iTunes for Solaris? iPhoto? Plus, I never said that I dislike Apple.

The PearC box does look fugly, I could probably get my five-year-old daughter to paint it though.

If I win the lottery this weekend I'll get one, just to see what its like OK? Benchtests next to the tricked out Mac Pro that I'd get as well.

[angelmb]

I did not want to say anything that I would regret later, I never do. Sorry if you got that idea.

What I mean is that the PearC is not a wise investment no matter what any given benchmarks can say. As you noted before, there are update worries a plenty. By not mention any other hardware & software issues you mostly would have.

Was it a dirty cheap option then you could assume a risk, it is your money after all… But that computer is over 2000€ which IMHO is uttermost nonsense. Not to advice you about that here at a Mac board would be 'nasty' to say the least.

As for the Sun… it was just a sample to picture how expense the PearC is, you could get:
- a Mac laptop or desktop
- a Sun workstation*

That's two computers against one which even doesn't know if it is either a PC, a Mac or a user's nightmare. Needless to say an intel Mac can run Solaris under VMware.

* I thought you were a linux guy which disliked Apple, so far I mistook you for someone else. My apologies.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Bleh. Even with the "better" options, that's about a $1200 PC (900€?) with OSX and everything else, and even that assumes a great motherboard. That's a Lian Li case, which actually isn't that bad- heck, ten to one Lian Li actually makes the MacPro case. (My condolences to any of you that still believe Apple actually makes hardware).

A Hackintosh makes no freakin' sense if you let some fly by night company rip you off for one by nearly double. The whole point is to build it yourself, (really doesn't take all that much research,as the methods are now downright childsplay) and get the benefit of maximum price/performance.

For that ripoff price, you could build a state of the art i7 machine with all the bells and whistles (like moep) that'd run rings around that thing.

[olePigeon]

There are only a handful of companies in China that make pretty much everything. Don't know of Lian Li manufactures the cases, but I wouldn't doubt it. Some products are made in Ireland. So far, all of our Airport base stations at work are made in Ireland.

[thechidz]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Looks like they developed a time machine and went back to the early 90s to purchase their cases.

is that a floppy disk drive?

[angelmb]

is that a floppy disk drive?

It looks like the typical '400 millions in 1' card reader every PC comes with nowadays.
Sure, I could have said billions but then Dr. Evil would complain.

My condolences to any of you that still believe Apple actually makes hardware.

That Lian Li may or not build the cases doesn't mean much, that's the very last step in the chain, what's behind is what really matters. While other manufacturers have to rely on design offices like TEAGUE, ONE&CO et cetera to get the work done, Apple has its very own in-house design team which is undeniably the best in the business.

My condolences to anybody believing that Microsoft actually design (not talking even about manufacturing) the XB360 remote, the game console itself or the Arc Mouse just to name a few.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

That Lian Li may or not build the cases doesn't mean much, that's the very last step in the chain, what's behind is what really matters. While other manufacturers have to rely on design offices like TEAGUE, ONE&CO et cetera to get the work done, Apple has its very own in-house design team which is undeniably the best in the business.

With something like this there's no reason to be paying for needless over-design. It's roughly a $100 case, not a $600 case like the MacPro -which in reality, most people have no real need for.

Unfortunately, this shameless company is charging a ridiculous premium as though this was a premium case, but then again, they are just exploiting the fact that many people will pay almost any inflated price if a company puts some parts together for them and slaps a label on it.

It's actually not a badly designed case at all, just ironic that it's probably the same firm that manufactures the MacPro case since few are better than Lian Li at cold rolled steel and aluminum designs.

My condolences to anybody believing that Microsoft actually design (not talking even about manufacturing) the XB360 remote, the game console itself or the Arc Mouse just to name a few.

I've never come across anyone that believes Microsoft actually manufactures hardware, but tons of Mac users that believe Apple does. I mean actually MAKE hardware, not just send out a design spec for someone else to manufacture- as in with motherboards and cases, since almost everything else is off the shelf.

[angelmb]

Well, Mac Pro's case makes no doubt, things easier for the user and looks like no other. Hardly needless, and hardly over-designed.

The 'El Capitán' tower design (Yosemite G3) was ahead of its time, I guess it could be also labeled as over-engineered, a hassle to produce and what not… but as long as the difficulties fall on the maker side instead of the customer side all is fine.
You could argue the Power Mac Cube was unnecessarily expensive but same reasoning applies, that is Apple's DNA, you just can't ask them to renounce to top-notch quality design cause that's something which identifies them among any other maker. They are the ones who have to spend good bucks on R&D after all.

Most iconic brands have certain core values which are of primary importance to hold its value, be it Coca-Cola, Harley-Davidson, the Walt-Disney Company or Apple itself. You may like that Lian Li case, nobody is going to discuss that, it is a matter of taste after all, but hardly you are going to "love it". You may find it practical, but hardly near to perfection. Be honest, it is not going to fulfill any dreams… mostly cause there is no dream being pursued by the maker. For what is worth that maker could go down next month and nobody will notice, cause someone else would fill that gap.

I am no trying to argue that every case under the sun has to be like the Mac Pro case, or every phone has to be like the iPhone, (albeit makers are trying hard to prove me wrong on that one). Sure, it is so tempting to go in that direction, whatever it is that is trendy, cause it is so damn exciting to be the focal point. But you have to be careful to create what no one else is able to at the time. That, among a bunch of other things, is what takes to be a trend setter instead of a follower… and let's be honest here, that Lian Li case is hardly worthy of being labeled even as such (follower).

I am sure most product managers in this industry -outside Apple- would be terrified to confront the difficulty and challenge with what is done inside Apple, if it wasn't the case and I was wrong, the iPod, the iPhone… all that amazing stuff that impact such different demographics could have been done before. Do we agree?.

And I am not even talking about the software side.

I've never come across anyone that believes Microsoft actually manufactures hardware, but tons of Mac users that believe Apple does. I mean actually MAKE hardware, not just send out a design spec for someone else to manufacture- as in with motherboards and cases, since almost everything else is off the shelf.

Nice, but truth be told I said designed. The minds behind the XB360 design (it was just an instance) like it could be its PC hardware, are not sitting in Redmond as most people would think… same thing happens with Compaq, HP, DELL computers, HTC smart phones, et cetera.

Some products are made in Ireland. So far, all of our Airport base stations at work are made in Ireland.

Just as a matter of interest, my Mac Pro was built in Ireland, not China.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

You may like that Lian Li case, nobody is going to discuss that, it is a matter of taste after all, but hardly you are going to "love it". You may find it practical, but hardly near to perfection. Be honest, it is not going to fulfill any dreams… mostly cause there is no dream being pursued by the maker. For what is worth that maker could go down next month and nobody will notice, cause someone else would fill that gap.

This is precisely the difference between people that USE computers, and the type that sees it as some pretend fashion statement.

Don't get me wrong, I like the MacPro design- I've got a couple of them (the last gen dual Xeons) for my business, and use one every day at my main workplace- but it's not because of the metal box it comes in, nor would I want such a **useless** premium added to every PC I need, because, yes, there is no real need for it.

I look at a PC case to fulfill some 'dream' about the same way as I look to that from the looks of a hard drive. It's a machine. It's a tool. That's it. Any dreams you want fulfilled, you're supposed to make with it yourself. If the machine itself is someone's dream, well... gee. I don't know what to say. Dream bigger than someone else's commercial product?

I find it funny that so much emphasis is put on the value of being able to dick around inside the MacPro case (and actually, it's NOT $500+ worth of easier than the above Lian Li design- or- any of countless others) as if people sit around all day dicking around INSIDE the computer, rather than using it.

Isn't one of the hallmarks of the Mac platform the fact that you shouldn't have to be doing that sort of thing all the time? And anyway, how freakin' easy is it to have to dick around inside of an iMac or a Mini compared to a standard tower? How many people spend all their user time tearing their Macs down for the sheer heck of it?

I don't really spend all that much time dicking around inside PC cases, but if I do have to, it's really not all that hard. And no one really needs to spend $600 to have a case that's easy to change drives, or even have the entire motherboard assembly slide out on a tray. You can get 'features' like that for less than $50.

I am no trying to argue that every case under the sun has to be like the Mac Pro case

A $600 piece of overkill that sits UNDER most people's desks? I would sure as hell hope not.

I give a more of a crap about the 'design' of one of my wife's flowerpots to be honest. At least those are something not best suited under a desk, or in a cabinet. (The most truly impressive setups I've ever seen, you don't even see something as mundane as a computer tower).

The nice thing about the MacPro is the hardware -IE dual quad i7 is freakin' sweet- that actually means something tangible when using one. As long as a case holds the relevant parts in place correctly, and doesn't make noise, I could really give two craps about the pretend 'fashion statement' aspect of the machine itself. It's the computing world's equivalent to people who think added decorative 'bling' makes a car go 'faster', not what's under the hood.

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

This is precisely the difference between people that USE computers, and the type that sees it as some pretend fashion statement.

But… I don't stare at my computer just cause it is a beautiful piece of engineering. I will let that to the MoMA.

Don't get me wrong, I like the MacPro design- I've got a couple of them (the last gen dual Xeons) for my business, and use one every day at my main workplace- but it's not because of the metal box it comes in, nor would I want such a **useless** premium added to every PC I need, because, yes, there is no real need for it.

That premium, added value is all about perception. It is not like visiting the dell, acer… website and pondering which one to buy, an affordable model that gets the work done or a design studio model, or a scary-looking gamer model, that would be indeed to pay a premium, 'here' with Macs it is just how things are… be it the USB modem, be it the Mac Pro.

I look at a PC case to fulfill some 'dream' about the same way as I look to that from the looks of a hard drive. It's a machine. It's a tool. That's it. Any dreams you want fulfilled, you're supposed to make with it yourself. If the machine itself is someone's dream, well... gee. I don't know what to say. Dream bigger than someone else's commercial product?

The dreamers are the folks who design it, who want to build the best appliance as possible available to their customers. Then you, as potential or de facto customer, may agree with such values or may disagree, regardless of that, it is clear they keep its dream alive bringing you a better MP3 player, a better phone… Sure, you can find knock-offs out there, which aren't either worth a look nor fair to the user cause as stated before, the PearC is legality aside, too expensive. I would say some google work may reveal a list of what's need to build a custom made PC compatible with OS X by (I guess) less money than what PearC asks for. Look for nekonoko's post.

I find it funny that so much emphasis is put on the value of being able to dick around inside the MacPro case (and actually, it's NOT $500+ worth of easier than the above Lian Li design- or- any of countless others) as if people sit around all day dicking around INSIDE the computer, rather than using it.

I would swear it is way easier than the aforementioned Lian Li, which doesn't seem an improvement over a G4 MDD which is a 2003 case improvement over the 1999 G3 case. I have took apart the inner of the MDD completely. All of it. The Mac Pro internal design is such an improvement.

By not to mention about the cleanliness of each one, here is when comparisons do become 'ugly'.

The quality of construction of the Mac Pro is also light-years ahead. This is like cars, most cars nowadays can look great on the outside, but once you get into the cabin, there is a huge difference between brands.

Isn't one of the hallmarks of the Mac platform the fact that you shouldn't have to be doing that sort of thing all the time? And anyway, how freakin' easy is it to have to dick around inside of an iMac or a Mini compared to a standard tower? How many people spend all their user time tearing their Macs down for the sheer heck of it?

Well, it was the Mac Pro case the one being discussed here. The approach differs from that of the Mac mini or the iMac. You are not supposed to play with iMac's inner stuff, besides adding RAM which is a snap. Some Pro users may want to add hard disks and some dedicated internal card to the Mac Pro, be it audio, video, raid… Than you do that just one or two times in the computer's lifetime is not a reason not to make it dead easy and even a joy for the user.

I don't really spend all that much time dicking around inside PC cases, but if I do have to, it's really not all that hard. And no one really needs to spend $600 to have a case that's easy to change drives, or even have the entire motherboard assembly slide out on a tray. You can get 'features' like that for less than $50.

Neither I do really. I have updated my Mac Pro with the NVIDIA 8800GT cause it was a bargain. Added a second hard disk cause IMHO makes sense, and that's all. I don't intend to add anything there anymore, but I am pleased it wasn't a pain at all. My fingers would agree.

A $600 piece of overkill that sits UNDER most people's desks? I would sure as hell hope not.

Why under?, makes no sense to me. Ports, optical disc, power button… all of those are more easily accessible if the computer sits over the desk, anyhow… thread is officially derailed now.

The nice thing about the MacPro is the hardware -IE dual quad i7 is freakin' sweet- that actually means something tangible when using one. As long as a case holds the relevant parts in place correctly, and doesn't make noise, I could really give two craps about the pretend 'fashion statement' aspect of the machine itself. It's the computing world's equivalent to people who think added decorative 'bling' makes a car go 'faster', not what's under the hood.

Heck no, it is not fair to compare cars like those from F&F dumb movies with something like a Mac Pro. The PCs labeled as 'Game Rings' or aimed to gamers, with all those blinking leds, windows built into the cases, huge vents… et cetera, those are the truly Fast and Furious cars of the computer world. Be it custom made or expensive model from well known makers, an Acer Predator Aspire may apply.

Don't take me wrong, I am not advocating the Macs as fashionable items, I never did label them so. They are tools, the right ones for some people's work. How other people may use them is another deal, cause sometimes you have to wonder if that's an Apple or a fashion retailer.

I post my opinion, and so do you. That's all.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

I'm tempted, TBH. But I feel that I'd be reliving my Linux days when I was scared of updating anything in case it broke.

Given how buggy Apple software updates recently, I'm *already* afraid to update my MacBook, iTouch, Shuffle or AppleTV for fear that something might break.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

That premium, added value is all about perception. It is not like visiting the dell, acer… website and pondering which one to buy, an affordable model that gets the work done or a design studio model, or a scary-looking gamer model, that would be indeed to pay a premium, 'here' with Macs it is just how things are… be it the USB modem, be it the Mac Pro.

IE: there's no other choice.

Well, actually now there is. You can build a Mac that looks like whatever you want, including put it in a MacPro case if you so choose.

The dreamers are the folks who design it, who want to build the best appliance as possible available to their customers.

The same can be said for the aforementioned flowerpots. Fullfilling the 'dreams' of some corporation's design or marketing depts isn't really all that high on my priorities list when purchasing products, but hey, to each his own.

I would swear it is way easier than the aforementioned Lian Li, which doesn't seem an improvement over a G4 MDD which is a 2003 case improvement over the 1999 G3 case. I have took apart the inner of the MDD completely. All of it. The Mac Pro internal design is such an improvement.

Again, you're comparing apples to spinach. The MacPro case is an expensive case. It better damn well have a few 'extras' for the percentage of the cost of the machine it adds. Comparing it to the Lian Li as if it were the only PC case out of tens of thousands of designs, in all shapes, sizes and forms, with all levels of quality (including, as I said, the MacPro case itself if one is into a little modding) is beyond pointless.

Heck no, it is not fair to compare cars like those from F&F dumb movies with something like a Mac Pro.

Sure it's fair. You may not like the fact that the unnecessary details of the MacPro case design are just as *useless* to the performance of the machine as LEDs are to gamer PCs, or spinners are to cars, but the truth of the matter is, they are unnecessary to performance.

The guts of a Mac Pro would work the same in ANY case they were put in. The guts is what actually gets the work done. It's great that the case looks nice- I wouldn't expect it not to, being that it's from Apple- just the whole point of all of this is, once you're off the Apple plantation of 3 desktop designs, a major part of the benefit is that you're not locked into expensive 'bling'. You can concentrate on what counts- actual performance. If one *WANTS* $600 case 'bling' to put that performance into, then great. But all this PearPC company is doing is charging the goofy premium without delivering the quality to match- hence, it's a ripoff.

[Big Mac]

Sounds a bit pricey for a Hackintosh.

[angelmb]

If you go into a e.g. Mercedes-Benz dealer you have no choice but stellar -no pun intended- cars. I mean, it is not like you can ask something like 'hey, do you have some sort of cheaper car where I could fit that engine?'.

I don't get what is unnecessary details of the Mac Pro case, the pursuit of a top notch execution?, what if they are perfectionist?, all this is about personal appreciation though, like saying that Lian Li case looks horrid. I would rather have the guts spared all over the desk -joking-. Look here, this would made a really nice PC case, a bold design, sort of a NeXT workstation… I don't think it has to be way more expensive than the Lian Li case showing nice looking design can be affordable, albeit this is ignorance speaking since I have no idea right now who designed it or how expensive it was… anyhow I don't want, neither need, to derail the thread even more.

[Wiskedjak]

I've never bought in to the "Apple is like a luxury car" analogy. Apple computers may *look* like a luxury car on the outside, but under the hood it's still a GM.

[OreoCookie]

You're tempted by a PC for over two grand? I thought the biggest argument for getting a Hackintosh was being able to buy a cheap desktop or netbook. Honestly, I don't get it.

It sounds liked a pimped up pc to me … 

Originally Posted by mattyb 

And why would I want to buy anything from Sun? Can I get iTunes for Solaris? iPhoto? Plus, I never said that I dislike Apple.

Who said you have to run Solaris on it? It's just an Intel box put together by people who know how to build computers. You can install Linux, Windows, Solaris or OS X.

It uses PC components rather than workstation components (Core 2 Duo instead of Xeons, etc.) and thus is cheaper.

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I've never bought in to the "Apple is like a luxury car" analogy. Apple computers may *look* like a luxury car on the outside, but under the hood it's still a GM.

The engine I was talking about was Mac OS X, which PearC is 'borrowing' so to speak… As for GM I don't know… cause we don't get many here in Europe, (even Cadillac is leaving) but again, I have to wonder how many PCs are there than look this great inside.

Who said you have to run Solaris on it? It's just an Intel box put together by people who know how to build computers.

Or at least by people who have a slightly better understanding of taste. Even when it is miles behind of the old Sun SPARC Workstations outside appearance.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I've never bought in to the "Apple is like a luxury car" analogy. Apple computers may *look* like a luxury car on the outside, but under the hood it's still a GM.

How do you differentiate between quality computers when the same 4 or 5 Chinese companies manufacture every single computer in the world? The same company that manufactures a super expensive Sun Workstation that's supposedly top notch quality is the same company that manufactures the $250 Dell.

I'm going to take a guess that just because it's the same manufacturer doesn't mean two computers are the same quality. Dell may do less testing and have lower defect tolerance for components to keep the computers as cheap as possible. Sun may only incorporate components that meet a certain criteria, even if those components are mass produced from the same batch as Dell's.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

If you go into a e.g. Mercedes-Benz dealer you have no choice but stellar -no pun intended- cars. I mean, it is not like you can ask something like 'hey, do you have some sort of cheaper car where I could fit that engine?'.

Car analogies do indeed start to suck pretty quickly, and sorry, this one is pretty ripe.

First of all, you very much can walk on a Mercedes-Benz lot and have a hell of a lot more choice than Apple offers by way of computers. It's a terrible example. Mercedes makes everything from $30k sedans to $100k+ yup-wagons.

The thing your analogy really misses, is that while you're stuck at your dealership with 3 models, anyone with a modest amount of skill can choose from endless dealerships, and endless options at each one. Enjoy what you're pretending is a Mercedes, but even less so than a car, it's a lame attempt at a 'status symbol'.

[Chuckit]

Endless options at each one…except the option to run the only modern operating system worth a damn.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Endless options at each one…except the option to run the only modern operating system worth a damn.

Yeah. Too bad BeOS isn't around anymore.

You were talking about Be, right?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Yeah. Too bad BeOS isn't around anymore.

You were talking about Be, right?

Ha, BeOS is actually the reason I added "modern."

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

How do you differentiate between quality computers when the same 4 or 5 Chinese companies manufacture every single computer in the world? The same company that manufactures a super expensive Sun Workstation that's supposedly top notch quality is the same company that manufactures the $250 Dell.

Well, it's a matter of budget: for $250 you have a different budget than for a `real' computer. If you look at Mercedes' A-class you'll find that the interior is much cheaper than in an S-class.

Dell's big workstations or servers are not really different than HP's, IBM's, Sun's or Apple's. And even though the cases may even seem identical to normal PC hardware, just lift them and you'll quickly see the difference.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

How do you differentiate between quality computers when the same 4 or 5 Chinese companies manufacture every single computer in the world? The same company that manufactures a super expensive Sun Workstation that's supposedly top notch quality is the same company that manufactures the $250 Dell.

I'm going to take a guess that just because it's the same manufacturer doesn't mean two computers are the same quality. Dell may do less testing and have lower defect tolerance for components to keep the computers as cheap as possible. Sun may only incorporate components that meet a certain criteria, even if those components are mass produced from the same batch as Dell's.

In which case, in order to continue using the car analogy, a Mac is, at best, a Lincoln with the rest of the PC market being other Ford models.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

The engine I was talking about was Mac OS X,

Pretty much irrelevant in the Mac=Mercedes analogy since that engine can be stuck into any car, from a Chevy Aveo to a Maserati.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Endless options at each one…except the option to run the only modern operating system worth a damn.

Which is...?

[angelmb]

Come on people, the Mercedes analogy was about QUALITY, not quantity of models to choose from. If you like that then I had wrote with Macs it is just how things are… be it the USB modem, be it the Mac Pro. since it is what we were talking about, quality, attention to detail, top-notch design. Cause even the tiny Apple USB modem won a red dot award.

Dell's big workstations or servers are not really different than HP's, IBM's, Sun's or Apple's. And even though the cases may even seem identical to normal PC hardware, just lift them and you'll quickly see the difference.

Funny enough I got an e-mail from GD USA and there it was an ad from HP Workstation line of computers, so I took a look and guess what I found:





All of it sounds familiar, huh?. So, besides being a bit full of themselves yelling 'innovative' they are following the ideas behind the Mac Pro. And it is not like people dislikes the idea of such a 'bold design', as quoted from some customers:

"I'm not too pleased with the outside of the case, but the modular insides make up for it. It is about time a PC manufacturer takes notice to the interior workmanship…

So, it is better that the average PC even when the door of the case looks like a Maxtor One Touch external hard drive. But got to show you these Mac Pro workstations are in another league than whichever Lian Li case you can name. I don't know about other PC makers cause I am not into the PC world but to me, the HP Media Server still looks better than these HP Workstations. AFAIK only old SGI workstations could dispute the throne to Apple when it came to applied industrial design.

Pretty much irrelevant in the Mac=Mercedes analogy since that engine can be stuck into any car, from a Chevy Aveo to a Maserati.

Which is...?

… I can't say much for vista Microsoft will have to answer for that. Windows 7 is not much of an upgradeI can't wait to order one and install OSX on it."

Here is your engine profanation. I would dare to say the aforementioned text sort of answers that. It is not made up, it is here.

If you look at Mercedes' A-class you'll find that the interior is much cheaper than in an S-class.

Hey, how dare you as german to say that? -kidding- Well, yeah, you could say that about the original A-Class which was mostly aimed to a young demography, but the current model is heavily improved, not S-Class level sure but better than e.g. a VW Golf; truth be told, the last iteration of the first A-Class had a great interior.

[OreoCookie]

Well, there are some innovations in Apple's case, but they're nothing earth shattering for other workstation cases. One of the areas where Apple is IMO ahead of the others is noise: Macs tend to be much quieter. I've had to use an AlphaStation as my main work machine in 2002 and that sucker was noisy. But in terms of accessibility of the guts, they're nothing special. If you compare them to normal computer cases, though, the difference is obvious.

Regarding Lian Li, my brother currently works for a computer gaming mag and he reviewed a rather expensive Lian Li case (~200 € or so) and it was utter crap.

If you ask a renowned (Chinese/Taiwanese) manufacturer to make a case for you, it's a matter of budget. If you look at workstations with a comparable feature set to the Mac Pro, they'll usually be in the same ball park.

[angelmb]

I hear you. I have had several SGI workstations, ranging from the little O2 to the big Octane 2, I didn't play with the guts of the O2 that much, but I surely did it with the Octane 2, and as you say, it was pretty much like the Mac Pro, not a single wire inside, and you can get into most stuff sliding the guts here and there, rather awesome for a workstation that old. Even so, an Octane 2 was more expensive than the whole range of current Mac computer together.

As for the noise, when I used to complain, I was told "workstations are not meant to be silent, shut up!." LOL

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

Come on people, the Mercedes analogy was about QUALITY, not quantity of models to choose from. If you like that then I had wrote [i] with Macs it is just how things are… be it the USB modem, be it the Mac Pro.

The Mercedes analogy was lame, as has been pointed out numoerous times- there's virtually nothing about Apple that compares to Mercedes, either as a brand, certainly not with quantity, pricerange, or choice (OF COURSE you'd want to ignore that!) and not even with quality or attention to detail.

Heck, it's attention to detail that's driven people that actually know hardware AWAY from the MacPro. It used to be laughable that a $3,000+ workstation was saddled with the cheapest possible graphics card, like the 7300GT and lackluster stock harddrive. As it is, the GT120/512 or 4870/512 are nothing to write home about. A 640GB harddrive is pretty chinchy as well.

The comparison to Mercedes is laughable, especially since we're talking about the high-end Mac, not the lowest end. No one gets in a high-end Mercedes and expects it to have performance features of a common Ford.

And really, a USB modem??? Seriously? That's supposed to be an example of something impressive? Try: modestly lame. First off, if I ever -for some horrid reason- ever needed a modem ever again, I sure as hell wouldn't want it to cost me $50, or be hanging off a USB port, rather than in a slot inside the machine. That's not great design, it's a hasty afterthought.

It's kind of silly that you keep going on about workstations, since the whole point of a Hackintosh is that you don't need a workstation-class machine to run OSX in a decent tower configureation, with decent features. That's just an invention of Apple's marketing.

The fact that you can get workstation class PCs as well, with every bit as much 'overkill' bulit in as the MacPro, only proves my point- there's endless choice on the PC side. But no one is forced to spend $3,000 on mostly useless 'bling', when a $1000 Core i7 system will run OSX better than 99% of Apple's own lineup.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Heck, it's attention to detail that's driven people that actually know hardware AWAY from the MacPro. It used to be laughable that a $3,000+ workstation was saddled with the cheapest possible graphics card, like the 7300GT and lackluster stock harddrive. As it is, the GT120/512 or 4870/512 are nothing to write home about. A 640GB harddrive is pretty chinchy as well.

I wonder whether you've actually bought a workstation/worked with one? Just have a look at HP's configurator: even in a $6k workstation, they only offer a 500 GB drive by default. The Quadro NVS 295 which the $2k model has by default is also just a graphics card for less than $100. What Apple is doing is not unusual at all in the Workstation market. Half of the value of a workstation is service and reliability.

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

It's kind of silly that you keep going on about workstations, since the whole point of a Hackintosh is that you don't need a workstation-class machine to run OSX in a decent tower configureation, with decent features. That's just an invention of Apple's marketing.

I agree with half of this. The OP posted a configuration for $2k -- which is already close to the base configuration of a Mac Pro (or other workstations). I do see the point of cheap desktops, though (~$1k or less, perhaps).

[angelmb]

So, how much would you say a Mac Pro is then worth?, $1500 instead of $2000 maybe?, just curious.

No way I am conceding the analogy about the Mac Pro and the Mercedes. This is not stubbornness but the lack of reasoning behind that. Firstly, the 'choice' thing has nothing to do with the analogy being more or less accurate (Mercedes were also top-notch quality products when their range was not as wide as it is today) cause we were discussing (I guess no more) the value & built quality of the Mac Pro, call it raw materials, noise level or the blamed expensive design itself. I just fail to see the useless bling you are talking about, or the lack of attention to detail… as instance, just check how well engraved the rear ports of the Mac Pro are, how isn't that attention to detail?, would it a be better fit for the Mac Pro the typical multicolored rear side you can find on most PCs?, I seriously doubt that… and if such en elegant execution of the rear ports wasn't 'attention to detail' then where is the useless bling you are talking about?, my guess is one thing leads to another.

Here is an article I had read two weeks ago, it shows why that lack of pc-like choice is actually key to Apple's success:

It was reported today that Microsoft will be releasing 6 versions of Windows 7, and while the majority of consumers will realistically only be choosing between two of them, it helps highlight the difference between Apple’s approach to business, and that of other tech companies. Contrary to what they teach in business school, Apple has succeeded by limiting consumer choice, and Apple’s small product line-up has been a key factor in that success.

While other companies release an inordinate number of products in an attempt to satisfy every potential customer, Apple has kept its product line-up relatively streamlined in comparison. Not only does this make things less confusing for consumers, but it also helps consumers understand what they’re actually paying for. Everyone knew what the iPhone had to offer almost immediately upon its release. Now, imagine if Apple had released an iPhone, an iPhone Nano, an iPhone Mini, and an iPhone Pro. Consumers would have no idea where to even start, and they’d actually have to study up on all the different models before they made their purchase. Most people don’t have the time to do that, and to be honest, most probably don’t care to either.

When Steve Jobs returned to Apple in 1997, he himself found Apple’s product lineup to be convoluted and ultimately too confusing. He even quipped that if he couldn’t figure out the difference between a multitude of hardware models, how could Apple expect consumers to do so?. Naturally, one of his first orders of business was putting the squeeze on Apple’s product lineup and focusing instead on only a few products that were to be marketed at either consumers or professionals. A large number of products were axed in the process, including the Newton. As a result, Apple’s product lineup shrunk down to just four offerings - laptops for either consumers or professionals, and desktops for either consumers or professionals.

Even today, Apple’s product lineup is relatively sparse compared to the product offerings of other companies. For example, if you want an Apple laptop, you can choose between a MacBook, a MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro. Three models to choose from, and that’s it. Even the names Apple chooses lend themselves to making it easier for consumers to differentiate between the different models available. By way of comparison, there are a multitude of Sony Vaio laptops out on market, and if you want to figure out how they differ, you have to study the specs. How else can you figure out the difference between a Sony Vaio VGN-Z550N and a Sony Vaio VGN-CS215J/R. In contrast, the use of the words “Air” and “Pro” give potential consumers, right from the start, an idea of what the machine is, and who it’s geared for.

Apple’s simplified approach to selling computers helped re-energize the company as it forced Apple to focus on doing a few things extremely well, while not letting its talent and resources drift off in a number of different directions and projects. That narrow focus eventually led to the development of the iMac, the iPod, and the iPhone - three products that together have helped Apple achieve record breaking financial and critical success. Apple understands that consumer choice is great, but too much choice can easily lead to customer confusion and frustration. It’s also worth pointing out that its easier for companies to provide quality technical support when there aren’t 15 models of a product that technicians need to be familiar with.

When it comes to product offerings, Apple’s approach to business is a lot like that of a Basketball coach. Would you rather have a smaller team comprised of only 7 All-Stars, or a full 12 man roster with 1 All-Star, 2 above average players, 3 mediocre players, and 6 benchwarmers?.

This facts about the lack of choice only get better when it comes to the iPhone App Store Vs. any other mobile phone store. Another shameless copy & paste:

As someone who has been watching the mobile industry evolve now for over 10 years it is interesting to watch how the iPhone phenomenon is causing so many industry stalwarts to run in circles chasing Apple's success. Whether the focus is touch screens or shiny black finishes, competitors are trying desperately to copy Apple's moves to achieve their own success.

The latest iPhone-spawned craze seems to be the need for every OEM and mobile operator to launch an application store for their devices.

Of course this is a great thing for the big device brands and for consumers, so the question is why didn't they do this first?

The answer lies with one big advantage Apple has over all other device OEMs (and certainly over any mobile operator) – a simple device support matrix.

Apple has the unique advantage of only having to support a small number of device iterations. As a result of having been in the market longer, the traditional mobile OEMs and carriers have the difficult burden of having to support a wide variety of device types and platform characteristics.

The goal for all App Stores is (or, rather, should be) to provide a one-for-all application download experience to support the OEM / provider's brand. As the number of supported device iterations grows, delivering on that goal becomes increasingly complex.

Apple has, at most, four devices that they need to worry about -- two generations of the iPhone and two generations of the iPod Touch.

Apple's support matrix looks something like this:

Looking at the above table, all four of these devices have the same screen resolution, the same input method (touch screen), the same form factor and button configuration (one button + volume controls) and nearly identical hardware comprising them. So, in practical terms, Apple really has only two, maybe three, devices to support.

Now let's compare that support burden with the next most simple device platform: RIM. If we assume that RIM will focus primarily on their top four device families (the Storm, Bold, Curve and Pearl), they still have an enormous support burden compared to Apple.

Among these four device families, Blackberry devices come in three different resolutions, three different input methods (touch screen, 1- and 2-letter QWERTY keyboards with trackball), two form factors (candy bar and flip), and some variance on hardware (GSM, CDMA, with / without WiFi or external displays).

So Blackberry's device support matrix looks like this:



These two images illustrate the challenge other OEMs have to overcome to create an experience as elegant as the iPhone's. And RIM probably has it the easiest of the rest of the OEMs (excluding Palm, see below). Nokia and Windows Mobile both come in more flavors than ice cream and Android is set to be modified and iterated by any number of OEMs / ODMs so their app store will quickly become fragmented as well.

Palm is perhaps the one exception to this bunch. Palm has made a conscious decision to keep things simple by starting fresh with the Palm Pre. They will have one App Catalog for one device. Of course more WebOS devices will be introduced but I expect Palm to follow Apple's lead by keeping things simple by keeping device specs similar.

I think that pretty much summarize why we're not going to see the Mac middle tower that will put a end to this thread.

As for the USB modem, the fact that it is something 'old school' doesn't mean it has to be ugly, it is like the iPhone USB Power Adapter, it looks great cause that is how Apple wants it to be. It could be horrid like the one my BlackBerry has, but that is not how things work at Apple.




It get the work done and it is also beautifully designed. How that is an issue is beyond me.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I wonder whether you've actually bought a workstation/worked with one?

I've built them. Frankly, I prefer rackmounts anyway to any tower case. As with any other type of PC, you quickly realize there's nothing magic about the inside of any of these things. It's just a collection of hardware in a case. Being able to choose what case, and what hardware, is a great thing. One really doesn't need Dell, HP, Apple or anyone else to do it for you (and charge a premium), with a modest amount of research.

Just have a look at HP's configurator: even in a $6k workstation, they only offer a 500 GB drive by default. The Quadro NVS 295 which the $2k model has by default is also just a graphics card for less than $100. What Apple is doing is not unusual at all in the Workstation market. Half of the value of a workstation is service and reliability.

First off, I wouldn't go near anything from HP. Secondly, the NVIDIA Quadro FX1800 in their $3700 model tears the MacPro's GT120 a new ass.

Beyond using multiple GT120's, what's the highest end graphic card you can put in the MacPro? Please show me one running a high end Quadro FX. Once again- choice. Apple should really cut the last pretenses of 'whole widget' nonsense and just open up the use of standard graphics cards in the MacPro.

I agree with half of this. The OP posted a configuration for $2k -- which is already close to the base configuration of a Mac Pro (or other workstations). I do see the point of cheap desktops, though (~$1k or less, perhaps).

Right, but understand it's really only $1200 worth of stuff. For someone who wants a $1200 tower Mac, buying the same parts and putting it together is an option. Buying it from PearPC at double the price is a ripoff.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

So, how much would you say a Mac Pro is then worth?, $1500 instead of $2000 maybe?, just curious.

Relax, you really don't need to spend so much effort defending the MacPro, when none of this is really about it.

The MacPro is a tremendous bargain actually- NOT because of the case, but because it's a steal to get dual quad i7 Xeons at anywhere near that price. It'd probably cost $1,000 more to try and match that yourself. Nowadays one can build the same spec as the old dual quad socket 771 Xeon MacPros for nearly half the cost- or a single processor i7 that outmatches it, but you can't match the dual i7 Xeons.

It's been a pattern with Apple- the MacPro is a tremendous value vs. any alternative since Apple clearly cuts deals with Intel (they're probably one of the single largest customers Intel has) for the best prices on the Xeon processors in the MacPro.

All of this value is price/performance related, not useless 'bling'. It's cool that you're into the 'bling' aspect, but try and understand it's not a priority for everyone.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

I've built them. Frankly, I prefer rackmounts anyway to any tower case. As with any other type of PC, you quickly realize there's nothing magic about the inside of any of these things. It's just a collection of hardware in a case. Being able to choose what case, and what hardware, is a great thing. One really doesn't need Dell, HP, Apple or anyone else to do it for you (and charge a premium), with a modest amount of research.

I don't think anyone has claimed workstation are made from another material. And as I said, a good portion of this money goes into reliability, serviceability and service -- which makes the difference to some. You wouldn't believe what kind of money these Chinese companies are trying to save, fractions of cents by using cheaper condensators or so.

You're right that most customers don't need ECC RAM or workstation-class cpus. And that people who can build their own PC can build such a system themselves quite easily.

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Apple should really cut the last pretenses of 'whole widget' nonsense and just open up the use of standard graphics cards in the MacPro.

You get no argument from me.

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Right, but understand it's really only $1200 worth of stuff. For someone who wants a $1200 tower Mac, buying the same parts and putting it together is an option. Buying it from PearPC at double the price is a ripoff.

That's right. As I said, I see the market hole the xMac has left.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I don't think anyone has claimed workstation are made from another material. And as I said, a good portion of this money goes into reliability, serviceability and service -- which makes the difference to some.

Most of this discussion has revolved around computer CASES. A case has no electronics, no circuits, nothing that actually contributes to the performance of the parts put into it. You can easily put a great server motherboard/processor/RAM combo in a sub $100 server case and have a machine every bit as reliable/capable/serviceable as anything any box-maker will sell you. If you're building a render farm or need a lot of workstations as economically as possible, it's pretty silly not to concentrate on max performance for the buck, not useless 'bling' that doesn't actually contribute to getting the job done.

You wouldn't believe what kind of money these Chinese companies are trying to save, fractions of cents by using cheaper condensators or so.

What Chinese companies are these?

The only part you could possibly be talking about that's any different from Mac to PC, is the motherboard. Intel makes the processors, Crucial or someone else makes the RAM, ATI or nVidia make the graphic cards, etc. etc. If the truth be known, Foxconn or some other company makes the MacPro's motherboard- it's just a custom design that Apple commissioned. By the way, Dell, HP and others do the same thing.

There are hundreds of quality motherboards to choose from- even in the server/workstation class. So I don't see what 'cheaper condensators' ( I assume that's a capacitor?) has to do with what we're discussing.

[Doofy]

See Matty? You even ask the question and you get this ^. Life's too short mate.

Now stop dicking around and go buy a Mac Pro.
And in three years' time when you hock it on evilBay, you'll get 40%+ of your cash back, in a very dissimilar fashion to how you wouldn't with the crap they're talking about up there.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

it is like the iPhone USB Power Adapter, it looks great cause that is how Apple wants it to be. It could be horrid like the one my BlackBerry has, but that is not how things work at Apple.




It get the work done and it is also beautifully designed. How that is an issue is beyond me.

The issue is the same as it is for the price of Macs: it gets the work done and it is also beautifully designed and it cost 10x what others charge to *do the same job and look just as good*.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.19242

[angelmb]

"Look just as good", makes sense since those are picts from the Apple unit. Anyhow, as long as it works and is safe… cause it seems that linked model doesn't even come with any engraved approval seal, so I would hesitate trusting it. Could be a knock-off (it seems to lack the charge led) or could be a defective unit, you never now.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by angelmb 

"Look just as good", makes sense since those are picts from the Apple unit. Anyhow, as long as it works and is safe… cause it seems that linked model doesn't even come with any engraved approval seal, so I would hesitate trusting it. Could be a knock-off (it seems to lack the charge led) or could be a defective unit, you never now.

It absolutely *is* a knock-off. But, it's a USB adapter; it's not like these things require proprietary technology to work.
Does the wall outlet you plug your approved USB adapter into come with an engraved approval seal? How about the wiring in your house? Approved by Apple? Or, the electricity being sent to your house? All could have a negative impact on your iPod, yet you trust *them* without a $30 Apple iSeal of Approval and without knowing who made them or installed them.

[angelmb]

Well, I wasn't referring to any hypothetical Apple seal of approval but something like the "CE" seal we have over here in Europe which is indicative than the device is safe to operate since it is supposed to have undergone some number of tests and be built upon a certain directives.
I think you are taking me wrong due to the 'Mac Pro case obstinacy', I am not preaching "if it is not Apple then it is not worth", as a matter of fact and just today, I bough a mouse and it wasn't from Apple, a Logitech died, the third Logitech mice I have lost… and while I have been lucky with the wireless Mighty Mouse, I bought a wireless Kensington mouse this time.
While Apple keyboards are a fantastic value, the mice are still too expensive. The Kensington was half the price and it doesn't look like a t_rd, getting both, the Red Dot and the iF design awards last year nonetheless !!!

The idea is rather cool I would say, even when I still like the wireless Mighty Mouse more.