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Salty · May 6, 2009, 01:17 PM

So today I got a call from my mom...

Mom: my mini froze, I was in the middle of writing an email.
David: what does it say beside the blue Apple?
Mom: safari, (my mom uses Mail.)
David: can you switch to another program.
Mom: oh... why isn't the light on my keyboard receiver on?
David: did you check to see if the batteries in your keyboard are dead?
Mom: no, it has batteries?
David: it's wireless mom... how did you think it worked?
Mom: well I don't know!

I just had a customer walk in.

Customer: this phone isn't working, last year you took out the battery and turned it on and it fixed it, now that doesn't fix it.
David: OK let me see.
Customer: it won't work when it's plugged in, or anything!
David: (plugs in phone, holds down red button) uhh, it's working...
Customer: what?! What did you do!?
David: I... uhh... turned it on?

Laminar · May 6, 2009, 01:52 PM

Who's David?

Salty · May 6, 2009, 01:58 PM

Me... and MacNN requires me to write a longer message...

PB2K · May 6, 2009, 02:05 PM

consider a blog ! this is hot stuff !

d4nth3m4n · May 6, 2009, 03:45 PM

^^ see sig

ghporter · May 6, 2009, 04:59 PM

Let's talk about what your definition of "old" is. Then we can address whether you're confusing "old" with "not technically oriented."

You see, my dad is 77. Uses a computer and cell phone quite well, thanks. Uses all sorts of gadgets quite well. But you see, he's a master electrician, spent his time in the Air Force as a radio technician (back during the Korean War), and has always been interested in how things work and so on. Compare my dad to someone his age or younger who feels frustrated when he/she has to type a letter on a typewriter, can't help but burn popcorn in his microwave, and still has that devilish "12:00" flashing on his VCR (DVDs? What are those?) and you can see the major and not at all subtle difference. It's the people, not their ages. The only thing age has to do with it is that today everyone is inundated by electronic technology and gadgets and can't help but pick up some of the tech stuff because of that. But how many of these people know how to use a manual can opener? What about a can opener without a crank? That's "tech" from a different generation, but those "gadgets" are just as integral to that generation as a computer or cell phone is to today's.

d4nth3m4n · May 6, 2009, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Let's talk about what your definition of "old" is. Then we can address whether you're confusing "old" with "not technically oriented."

You see, my dad is 77. Uses a computer and cell phone quite well, thanks. Uses all sorts of gadgets quite well. But you see, he's a master electrician, spent his time in the Air Force as a radio technician (back during the Korean War), and has always been interested in how things work and so on. Compare my dad to someone his age or younger who feels frustrated when he/she has to type a letter on a typewriter, can't help but burn popcorn in his microwave, and still has that devilish "12:00" flashing on his VCR (DVDs? What are those?) and you can see the major and not at all subtle difference. It's the people, not their ages. The only thing age has to do with it is that today everyone is inundated by electronic technology and gadgets and can't help but pick up some of the tech stuff because of that. But how many of these people know how to use a manual can opener? What about a can opener without a crank? That's "tech" from a different generation, but those "gadgets" are just as integral to that generation as a computer or cell phone is to today's.

did you really just compare a computer to a can opener?

sounds like you're taking your druthers about being called old and balling them up into superchickens woes about elderly technotardation.

Doofy · May 6, 2009, 06:47 PM

Salty just doesn't want to accuse his mom of being dumb, so it's "old people" rather than "dumb people".

Face Ache · May 6, 2009, 07:03 PM

With my first TV I memorised the manual.

With my second TV I read the manual once.

With my third TV I skimmed the manual.

With my fourth TV I only looked at the manual when I needed to.

With my fifth TV I only used the features I could figure out for myself.

With my sixth TV I scream JUST WORK DAMN YOU!!! a lot.

The older you get, the faster time flies. Reading manuals wastes vital minutes of your limited remaining time - time better spent remembering where you left your reading glasses.

Railroader · May 6, 2009, 08:00 PM

I had to read the manual of one of my camera flashes the other day. I hope I never have to do that again.

Eug · May 6, 2009, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by Face Ache

With my first TV I memorised the manual.

With my second TV I read the manual once.

With my third TV I skimmed the manual.

With my fourth TV I only looked at the manual when I needed to.

With my fifth TV I only used the features I could figure out for myself.

With my sixth TV I scream JUST WORK DAMN YOU!!! a lot.

The older you get, the faster time flies. Reading manuals wastes vital minutes of your limited remaining time - time better spent remembering where you left your reading glasses.

With my first TV, I just plugged it in and it worked. It only had a cable/antenna input.

With my current TV I had to read all the specifics about the various inputs, including resolution support over VGA, which I learned does not support the native 1366x768 of the TV, just up to 1024x768 60 Hz. My HDMI inputs support 1920x1080p inputs, but of course the TV is not 1920x1080p.

andi*pandi · May 6, 2009, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

With my current TV I had to read all the specifics about the various inputs, including resolution support over VGA, which I learned does not support the native 1366x768 of the TV, just up to 1024x768 60 Hz. My HDMI inputs support 1920x1080p inputs, but of course the TV is not 1920x1080p.

This is why I don't want to get a new TV.

ghporter · May 6, 2009, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by d4nth3m4n

did you really just compare a computer to a can opener?

Know how to use a P38 can opener? Don't scoff at someone who didn't grow up with computers if you can't. And then don't scoff anyway. It's rude.

Originally Posted by d4nth3m4n

sounds like you're taking your druthers about being called old and balling them up into superchickens woes about elderly technotardation.

Categorizing all "old" people as "technotards" is about as accurate as saying everyone with blue eyes is stupid. Calling the two people described "tech challenged," and noting that they're of an older generation may be correlative, but it's not a valid "cause/effect" relationship.

Tiresias · May 7, 2009, 12:15 AM

My father once told me, in a state of exasperation, that he'd just spent that last 20 minutes deleting a document on his computer. I asked him to explain, and it turned out that he was deleting documents by opening them and holding down delete. He did not know it was possible to select and delete the file itself.

And believe it or not, he's a barrister and solicitor.

mattyb · May 7, 2009, 07:14 AM

I bet Salty's mum could bring up some really amusing conversations.

Plus, shame on you Salty, if I knew your mum's email address ...

Maflynn · May 7, 2009, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by Tiresias

And believe it or not, he's a barrister and solicitor.

So, his intelligence level has nothing to do with his computer literacy/ability.

mattyb · May 7, 2009, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Maflynn

So, his intelligence level has nothing to do with his computer literacy/ability.

Exactly. 99.9% of developers that I've worked with were as thick as pig s**t, yet they know their way around a PC.

OK maybe its 98%.

Tiresias · May 7, 2009, 07:28 AM

If there were an intelligence test based solely on one's technological competence, he would not even be ranked among the higher mammals, but would figure somewhere among sea crustacean and plankton. And yet, yes, he has been practicing law successfully for thirty years.

He also types with extraordinary rapidity using only his two forefingers, and I can tell you, it is a most hilarious spectacle to behold.

Doofy · May 7, 2009, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by mattyb

Exactly. 99.9% of developers that I've worked with were as thick as pig s**t, yet they know their way around a PC.

OK maybe its 98%.

If in doubt, it's usually best to default back to Doof's Patented Law Of 95%.

ghporter · May 7, 2009, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Tiresias

If there were an intelligence test based solely on one's technological competence, he would not even be ranked among the higher mammals, but would figure somewhere among sea crustacean and plankton. And yet, yes, he has been practicing law successfully for thirty years.

He also types with extraordinary rapidity using only his two forefingers, and I can tell you, it is a most hilarious spectacle to behold.

So he's obviously extremely bright, but fairly specialized, right? Your generic "whiz-kid" 16 year old computer geek couldn't tell the difference between a tort and a tart, but he's spent his time specializing in being a computer geek. Is that saying that the kid is anything but "better trained with computers" than the barrister?

It's unfortunate but most people older than about 40 have had very little training with computers. When the PC showed up on the scene and businesses started putting them on everyone's desktop, only a few users got actual training. But since much of what one does with a computer is straightforward, the feeling has traditionally been "you can figure this out for yourself." Bull. It really does take at least SOME introductory training to pick up the basics. And it's easy to fall into the trap of expecting someone's native intelligence to work like your own and that they can figure things out without being pointed in the right direction.

Considering someone "technologically retarded" for simply not being trained in using a computer is sort of like saying that someone who has never learned to drive is also "retarded."

Salty · May 7, 2009, 09:34 AM

For the record I consider my mom more adorable than stupid, I just thought it was funny that it didn't even cross her mind that something electronic might need batteries if it's not connected to the wall. Nice thing is I bought her that keyboard I think probably six months ago and the batteries just went dead.

And my mom's actually a decent typist, she used to work on old Macs from 1984 when she worked for CN rail. She understands dragging things to the trash, but trying to explain to her how spotlight works is pretty difficult... actually explaining to her where to find spotlight is kinda hard. "Top right hand corner of the screen" she kept thinking screen meant window. Which now that I think of it she could have used that search field too... dang it...

PB2K · May 7, 2009, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by d4nth3m4n

^^ see sig

sorry all your sigs are not displayed because of a useful forumsetting

Salty · May 7, 2009, 11:11 AM

Really? Of all the forums I've been at MacNN by far gives me the least reason to wanna block sigs... I use them to keep track of people instead of their names!

d4nth3m4n · May 7, 2009, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by ghporter

Know how to use a P38 can opener?

eagle scout, son.

Originally Posted by ghporter

Slow down, this is a neighborhood!

alright, i get it, nevermind.

PB2K · May 7, 2009, 06:54 PM

up to you Salty, i prefer to read text before I see the sig/name

ghporter · May 7, 2009, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by d4nth3m4n

eagle scout, son.

Great. Then you know that it wasn't "intuitively obvious" to someone who grew up with a crank (or electric) can opener, right? Same thing with tech stuff-especially tech stuff. There is NO SUCH THING as an "intuitively obvious interface" unless you carefully and in detail explicitly define a very small user population.

Originally Posted by d4nth3m4n

Originally Posted by ghporter

Slow down, this is a neighborhood!

alright, i get it, nevermind.

Cute edit... "Old" is a state of mind, that condition when one feels that there is more behind one than ahead. I ain't NOWHERE near that neighborhood. I am weeks away from graduating (again) and starting a brand new professional career. Old people don't do that. I just object to the stereotyping and blatant ageism I see in many of the posts in this thread. In other words, unless the person's overall capabilities are weighed along with a possible lack of tech savvy, then it comes down to something very similar to "you aren't in our club so we'll make fun of you." That's not only a poor substitute for real humor, it's a poor substitute for real humanity.

d4nth3m4n · May 7, 2009, 08:48 PM

why the crap am i taking the brunt of the aging boomers when this is salty's thread?

Maflynn · May 8, 2009, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by d4nth3m4n

why the crap am i taking the brunt of the aging boomers when this is salty's thread?

because you were calling people technotards and other stupid posts like that

Railroader · May 8, 2009, 06:49 AM

Lone Star is feeling old

ghporter · May 8, 2009, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

Lone Star is feeling old

No, but I am grumpy. Mostly because of what Maflynn has observed. Calling anyone a "'tard" of any kind irks me (I work with people with developmental and intellectual disabilities), and any sort of gross stereotyping and prejudice bug the crap out of me.

Making fun of me when I stumble over my own feet (something I've done for most of my life-I'm clumsy sometimes) is one thing. Making fun of people who do not understand something simply because they have never been taught about it is, as I observed above, like making fun of them because they don't know your local neighborhood slang or they "aren't in our club." Not terribly mature or even entertaining.

hayesk · May 8, 2009, 05:27 PM

The real question is why she has a wireless keyboard with a desktop computer.

Railroader · May 8, 2009, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by hayesk

The real question is why she has a wireless keyboard with a desktop computer.

She doesn't like wires?

ghporter · May 9, 2009, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

She doesn't like wires?

Without any real experience with a computer, how would she KNOW she doesn't like wires? It looks like the wireless keyboard was Salty's idea, not hers.

Railroader · May 9, 2009, 03:09 PM

I'd call this "real experience with a computer":

Originally Posted by Salty

And my mom's actually a decent typist, she used to work on old Macs from 1984 when she worked for CN rail.

ghporter · May 9, 2009, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by Railroader

I'd call this "real experience with a computer":

'Cept that in the 80s she didn't have a choice about whether or not to have cables and wires all over the place. It's a matter of experience with the specific device, not computers in general.

Railroader · May 9, 2009, 06:44 PM

OK, you win.

ghporter · May 9, 2009, 08:40 PM

The thing that really gets me upset in this thread is the - common throughout much of our society - assumption that everyone has been totally immersed in <X>, and because of that, everyone "should just know" <Y>. It ain't so. You have to learn how to drive a car, you have to learn to use a pencil, and you have to learn to use techno gadgets.

Much of the "old people" bashing in this thread smacks of young people who had everything handed to them making fun of their parents who did all the work to earn the money to buy all that everything. I'm not at all saying that's what it is, but it sure has that flavor. That lack of respect bothers me almost as much as the prejudice against people who are older-and their parents.

Kerrigan · May 9, 2009, 09:07 PM

Fast-forward this thread to page 2 and I'm 95% sure it will be about gay sex or something like that.

Tiresias · May 10, 2009, 01:16 AM

I agree with ghporter.

Case in point: Here in South Korea, kids between the ages of 10-19 are so incredibly proficient at text-messaging that they can type and send messages with truly amazing rapidity, their thumbs a blur, and with their eyes closed.

One of the reasons this skill has developed is so that they can text with their friends in class, hiding the phone under the desk, and pretending to gaze with fascination at the teacher.

They do not comprehend my astonishment. They think that anyone who can't do this, such as myself, is just stupid.

Demonhood · May 10, 2009, 02:16 AM

Originally Posted by Tiresias

They do not comprehend my astonishment. They think that anyone who can't do this, such as myself, is just stupid.

go into a store and buy some alcohol. that'll shut those jerk kids up.

Doofy · May 10, 2009, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Fast-forward this thread to page 2 and I'm 95% sure it will be about gay sex or something like that.

I hear that old people are very bad at gay sex.

Tiresias · May 10, 2009, 07:57 AM

You "heard" that, did you?

Face Ache · May 10, 2009, 06:32 PM

We've come a long way, baby.

My son and I were standing in the electronics section of a department store on Saturday, choosing the radios we like. I decided on a retro styled model with a large dial on the front.

Junior selected an ultra-modern, seemingly buttonless, glass fronted job. Turning the front dial of my choice, I say "here's how to tune into a station on this radio. How do you get a station on that one?"

"Umm..."

Salty · May 11, 2009, 02:40 PM

OK so I just had another winner phone... only this guy was a jerk.

"He- Hello? I was just talking to a customer and I thought my phone would have their number but my phone doesn't have their number where do I find their number."
"Well what kind of phone do you have?" (Keeping in mind I'm in sales and this guy didn't buy his phone from me he SHOULD be calling tech support which I'd totally be allowed to refer him to, so this is me being nice while a customer is waiting in store.)
"I have an iPod, and it doesn't have the number I need to know where to find the number."
"OK, you have an iPhone, iPods don't make calls, all you need to do is go to the phone icon, click on that, then there's a little clock like icon on the bottom that says recent calls, go there and the number should be near the top unless it was blocked."
"No, I don't have an iPhone I have an iPod."
"Sir, iPods are just for listening to music if you can make calls on it it's an iPhone."
"I have an iPod!"
"Sir I think you should come to a store for help."
"Why can't you tell me over the phone!"
"Because if you don't even know what kind of phone you have, and if what I explained earlier didn't make sense you probably need someone to show you, and I have a customer in my store I need to deal with."
"Well I'm a customer!"
"Yup, and this one was here before you and he's been waiting very patiently, have a nice day."

Ugh... I don't mind people who don't know how to use gadgets, what I do mind is when they talk down to me and tell me I don't know what I'm doing when I know more about their gadgets than they ever could hope to.

Add to that trying to help a lady my mom knows set up a signature on her Mac with Mail, I figured I could do it without mine but I couldn't remember what the dialogue box looks like (honestly can you?) Every time she'd tell me everything she'd written down for her signature when I'm like I don't care what your sig is I care about why it' snot going into your email. So I'm gonna phone her back when I have my MacBook handy.

Oh and as far as my mom's keyboard being wireless. Her Kensington mouse I bought her wore out, it was wireless because she kept going on about her friend's and how she thought it was the coolest thing and she really wanted one... and if you saw my mom's desk it would make sense the way she has things set up. So when I needed to replace it, it was cheaper to get the keyboard/mouse combo from logitech than to just buy just a mouse.

Laminar · May 11, 2009, 02:46 PM

Railroader · May 11, 2009, 07:18 PM

please