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besson3c · May 26, 2009, 05:50 PM

With increasing gas prices, the costs of office space, and the ability to facilitate working from home technologically, why isn't this more common?

I'm working from home now and am loving it, yet I hear from people frequently about their commutes and poor office environment and all of these associated hassles, and think why wouldn't this business permit working from home? In addition to the benefits listed above, offering this flexibility is a major perk which would make jobs at this business in greater demand. In turn, this business would get stronger applicants applying for these positions. To me, there are clear benefits on both sides of the equation, in many cases...

Obviously there are many occupations where physically being at the job is a must, but what about all of the others? Why does working from home seem like such a rare thing, or is it just me?

Railroader · May 26, 2009, 07:02 PM

I work from home. But also, operating a home, is my work.

Chuckit · May 26, 2009, 08:24 PM

Distrust. If they can't see you, they assume you're playing World of Warcraft rather than working.

ghporter · May 26, 2009, 08:37 PM

Some professions simply cannot be "called in." Think "health care" to start. Now how about hardware tech support (the bench stuff where someone actually opens up the equipment you brought in and finds out how many gummi bears your kid squished in through the vent holes). For an "information worker" job, where the individual's personal knowledge was the crux of the job, then telecommuting can work and work well. Assuming that the management isn't a bunch of overly suspicious goons, that is. As Chuckit points out, if you're not on site, they can't tell if you're working or surfing pr0n, playing WoW, or just napping.

Doofy · May 26, 2009, 08:40 PM

Plus, of course, a lot of people can't do with being home all day - they lose the social aspect of being in the workplace and can't handle it.

besson3c · May 26, 2009, 08:45 PM

Chuckit: I figured that would be an answer, but in many work environments that I know of they barely monitor you anyway, and just because they can see you doesn't mean that you are actually getting work done. It is easy to give this false appearance. If they can't monitor your actual results, how does having a body occupy a seat change things a whole lot?

ghporter: I provided that caveat in my original post about professions that can't be called in.

mattyb · May 27, 2009, 02:14 AM

The communication aspect (between your colleagues) is lost when you have telecommuters. The unplanned meetings, the information over a coffee or crossing in the hallway doesn't happen when you aren't in the same building.

I remember talking to a senior manager about open space offices. He said that it was the best thing for communication. He had a large office with a large desk at the end of it, nobody passing his door ever came in if it wasn't for some organised meeting. Since moving to an open space office, he said that people would often stop and discuss things with him, that informal communication was much improved.

Email just doesn't have the same impact.

Chuckit · May 27, 2009, 03:32 AM

That's true, but most of the time, I don't want other people's opinions on what I'm doing. When I do want them, I will ask. Not being interrupted with pointless meetings and crap is half the fun of telecommuting.

besson3c · May 27, 2009, 03:49 AM

It doesn't have to be an either/or situation either, necessarily. Where face to face time with colleagues is of value meetings can be arranged, or perhaps employees can work from the office x number of days a week, or whatever. My main point of curiosity is why this isn't offered as an *option* more often.

It seems to me that the reason why this is is that employers are stuck in a work model of wanting to control employees. Yes, a certain amount of control is necessary, but there are definite downsides to taking away autonomy - for starters, the effect on employees in knowing that they have little autonomy and are just a worker bee.

mattyb · May 27, 2009, 04:20 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

That's true, but most of the time, I don't want other people's opinions on what I'm doing. When I do want them, I will ask. Not being interrupted with pointless meetings and crap is half the fun of telecommuting.

You're lucky that you have that choice. I've been an Oracle DBA for a number of years now, it never ceases to amaze me that managers (most of whom wouldn't know a bit from a byte) suddenly know how to resolve technical issues with Oracle that I'd never thought of.

Originally Posted by besson3c

It doesn't have to be an either/or situation either, necessarily. Where face to face time with colleagues is of value meetings can be arranged, or perhaps employees can work from the office x number of days a week, or whatever. My main point of curiosity is why this isn't offered as an *option* more often.

It seems to me that the reason why this is is that employers are stuck in a work model of wanting to control employees. Yes, a certain amount of control is necessary, but there are definite downsides to taking away autonomy - for starters, the effect on employees in knowing that they have little autonomy and are just a worker bee.

I'd love to work in a company that was that well organised. Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance. I've yet to see this mantra taken seriously.

The control aspect is funny. They want to control your every move, sound, and thought, yet are quite happy to outsource your work if they find a cheap quote. Getting the right balance is hard - I hear that Google has lost this part of its charm. I imagine that Apple is a very tightly controlled environment.

ctt1wbw · May 27, 2009, 05:24 AM

I work from home, too. Of course, we live in our Bed and Breakfast.

IceEnclosure · May 27, 2009, 05:56 AM

mattyb · May 27, 2009, 06:30 AM

^ Some explanation needed please Mr. IceEnclosure sir.

Doofy · May 27, 2009, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

It seems to me that the reason why this is is that employers are stuck in a work model of wanting to control employees.

It seems to me that the reason why this is is that employees are stuck in a work model of wanting to be controlled by employers.

"Slave screams... ...but he's glad to be chained to that wall".

turtle777 · May 27, 2009, 06:57 AM

The missing face time will make it much harder to progress in your career.

Even if you do a great job from afar, you just don't stick out.

-t

Laminar · May 27, 2009, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by mattyb

^ Some explanation needed please Mr. IceEnclosure sir.

Don't tell me you've never seen Office Space.

mattyb · May 27, 2009, 08:20 AM

^ What turtle says (for once) is true. Can't remember where I read or saw it, but there was a small company that hired someone to do DBA work - he did it remotely. After the initial contract of IIRC 6 months, they fired him. The guy telling the story said that they didn't have any problems during the six months, all the paperwork was in order and that they couldn't fault they guy. The reason that they fired him? They never saw him.

I used to take my daughter to her nursery in the morning, and arrived at work at 09H15. My boss complained that I slept in. When I showed him that I stayed later and in fact did more hours than he did since he left around 17H30 each night, he didn't like it.

Face time is vital, unless as I said before, your job has been outsourced.

mattyb · May 27, 2009, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Laminar

Don't tell me you've never seen Office Space.

I've never seen Office Space.

Railroader · May 27, 2009, 08:23 AM

PSHAW!!!! Say it ain't so!!!

osiris · May 27, 2009, 08:27 AM

Never saw Office Space either...

But I've telecommuted across vast wastelands.

Railroader · May 27, 2009, 08:32 AM

That's the last straw. Now I'll have to burn down the building. [/milton]

mattyb · May 27, 2009, 08:37 AM

Due to the inability of France to fully join the 21st century, I may have to perform an illegal act so that I can participate in the future direction of this thread.

Dakar V · May 27, 2009, 08:38 AM

I work from home. But I run a crack den.

Dakar V · May 27, 2009, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by mattyb

Due to the inability of France to fully join the 21st century, I may have to perform an illegal act so that I can participate in the future direction of this thread.

You haven't been living there that long. That movie is probably 15 years old.

mattyb · May 27, 2009, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by Dakar V

You haven't been living there that long. That movie is probably 15 years old.

I meant stuff like renting movies online - like Netflix.

Railroader · May 27, 2009, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Dakar V

I work from home. But I run a crack den.

Legal brothel? Are you a prostitute?!?!

Dakar V · May 27, 2009, 08:43 AM

Nobody but the US gets Netflix last i checked. So that ain't France's fault.

osiris · May 27, 2009, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

Legal brothel? Are you a prostitute?!?!

Crack, not butt crack.

Unless Dakar has a little side line thing going.

Dakar V · May 27, 2009, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

Legal brothel? Are you a prostitute?!?!

What the hell is your definition of crack den?

Railroader · May 27, 2009, 08:45 AM

Oh... THAT kind of crack...

Very respectable trade. Retirement kind of sucks though. And a totally different kind of sucks as the brothel job.

Laminar · May 27, 2009, 08:46 AM

This thread has taken an upswing.

osiris · May 27, 2009, 08:48 AM

Until you showed up.
ouch!

mattyb · 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Dakar V

Nobody but the US gets Netflix last i checked. So that ain't France's fault.

Ah, I thought that the UK had it. My mistake.

EDIT : its also this sort of stuff. Makes interesting reading as well.

andi*pandi · May 27, 2009, 11:25 AM

meetings, perceived fairness among coworkers whose work is deemed unacceptable for telecommute, accountability and oversight.

I work from home sometimes, and sometimes I'm more productive than when in the office.

For some, "work from home" is code for "don't bother me."

turtle777 · May 27, 2009, 11:42 AM

Part-time telecommute is not necessarily a problem. But 100% telecommute only works in very few select jobs and industries.

-t

Eug · May 27, 2009, 12:08 PM

ctt1wbw · May 27, 2009, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

meetings, perceived fairness among coworkers whose work is deemed unacceptable for telecommute, accountability and oversight.

I work from home sometimes, and sometimes I'm more productive than when in the office.

For some, "work from home" is code for "don't bother me."

... or "unemployed."

ghporter · May 27, 2009, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

ghporter: I provided that caveat in my original post about professions that can't be called in.

I sort of left out the part about "certain 'knowledge workers' must have a physical presence..." It was in my head, honest! But that would go with the stuff I said about a lot of knowledge workers being able to do a lot of their work from home.

I should point out that a relative of mine is a bank examiner. MOST of what he does can be done in his den. But the important part, examining the facilities, seeing how the workers and executives react to questions, etc., MUST be done in person. So perhaps an added, very good question could be "why aren't there more jobs that have mixed in-person and telecommuting schedules?"

turtle777 · May 27, 2009, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

With increasing gas prices, the costs of office space, and the ability to facilitate working from home technologically, why isn't this more common?

To make my former argument a little obvious:
You'll never get promoted to manager if you just work from home.

-t

besson3c · May 27, 2009, 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by turtle777

To make my former argument a little obvious:
You'll never get promoted to manager if you just work from home.

-t

Hi Turtle, how are you doing? Having a nice day?

Yes, that is the way it seems now, but I think this is a symptom of the thinking I've been alluding to, not necessarily an inevitability. If a workplace just made it a broader policy to encourage working from home so that everybody was on a level playing field, this would eventually change. You'd also have the ability to start hiring people from wherever, not necessarily even in the same state - another employer perk I failed to list prior.

turtle777 · May 28, 2009, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Hi Turtle, how are you doing? Having a nice day?

Yes, that is the way it seems now, but I think this is a symptom of the thinking I've been alluding to, not necessarily an inevitability.

I disagree.

You can't show that you have certain people skills by just working from home.
Part of a promotion to lead people is that you demonstrated that you actually CAN lead people, in ALL circumstances, not just handing out tasks via trouble tickets or emails.

-t

mattyb · May 28, 2009, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by turtle777

I disagree.

You can't show that you have certain people skills by just working from home.
Part of a promotion to lead people is that you demonstrated that you actually CAN lead people, in ALL circumstances, not just handing out tasks via trouble tickets or emails.

-t

LMFAO, I have NEVER EVER come across a manager that was promoted because he or she could lead people. Because they knew how to play office politics - yes, because they were part of successful project - yes. Because they went to a certain school or university - yes.

What company do you work for? Are you a boss?

Laminar · May 28, 2009, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by mattyb

LMFAO, I have NEVER EVER come across a manager that was promoted because he or she could lead people. Because they knew how to play office politics - yes, because they were part of successful project - yes. Because they went to a certain school or university - yes.

What company do you work for? Are you a boss?

LIKE A BOSS allcaps

mattyb · May 28, 2009, 08:28 AM

^ Outside of US, can't see the clip there - is it the Like a boss rap thing?

turtle777 · May 28, 2009, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by mattyb

LMFAO, I have NEVER EVER come across a manager that was promoted because he or she could lead people. Because they knew how to play office politics - yes, because they were part of successful project - yes. Because they went to a certain school or university - yes.

What company do you work for? Are you a boss?

I'm sorry that you worked for such companies.

And I'm not saying that the reasons above never play a role in promotions - they do.

However, let's assume that most companies only pay lip service in promoting people based on people skills - even then someone working remotely would have a hard time qualifying, since they don't even fulfill the "official" requirements.

I have never seen anyone working 100% from home being promoted to a management position in a traditional organization.

-t

turtle777 · May 28, 2009, 08:44 AM

Originally Posted by mattyb

Are you a boss?

Yes, I am.

And in several promotions and also in interviews for new jobs, leading and managing people was one important aspect for consideration.

All teleworking jobs I have seen were staff / specialist positions.

-t

Salty · May 28, 2009, 09:32 AM

I gotta agree with the face time bit. I've been stuck in the same store for... it'd be two years in September. My sales given the location were always top notch, my sales are often higher than reps at our stores with a lot more traffic. My previous boss decided he didn't like me, so when the time came that I needed to move stores, because of an odor that comes from our A/C system that makes me feel ill, I was left with only the option of quitting, and I took it. Why? Cause the boss didn't like me, so I avoided him. Didn't matter that even then I was one of the best reps we have, that I knew more about the devices we sell than any other rep, and that I had great people skills and my customers gave more positive feedback to the company than anyone else... I had to quit to get out.

Since then we've got a new GM, and I've kind of changed a bit of how I do thing. Not so much how I do my job, I'm still excellent with customers, I still know more about our products than anyone else. What I changed was instead of avoiding him, I've made a point to regularly send emails about once or twice a week, giving some feedback about the changes he's made, and suggesting topics and ways of doing our staff meetings that he's trying to change.

Because I give feedback that he finds useful about how to manage some of the things he's responsible for he's picked up on the fact that in a morning meeting with 30 employees I'm the only one that knows what Geo-tagging is, I'm the only one who really even knew what Android was, I'm the only person who has a clue about what's coming from Apple.

So yah... face time is important.

andi*pandi · May 28, 2009, 09:46 AM

I didn't know working from home was an option with retail.

besson3c · May 28, 2009, 12:15 PM

turtle: you can lead from home. You can talk with your team on the phone, or arrange to meet in person somewhere to solve problems as needed. Maybe it would be hard to compete for leadership with people who *didn't* work from home, but like I said if everybody did, I see no reason why you couldn't be an effective leader from home or anywhere else. Does a company grind to a halt when a manager is on vacation or something?

Salty · May 28, 2009, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

I didn't know working from home was an option with retail.

Might as well be, I swear being the only employee at an out of the way store... some days I'm tempted to come into work with a blanket and just sleep until customers come... either that or walk around naked... actually I'm pretty sure I've scratched myself right in front of the big store window...