[besson3c]

Has anybody seen this documentary yet? I may go check it out tomorrow:

http://www.foodincmovie.com/about-the-film.php


This is not about being a vegetarian or about fast food, it's about the entire food industry. My wife has read the Michael Pollan book who himself is a meat eater and was really affected by this book, so I'm anxious to see this. I'm pretty certain this is not some thinly veiled Michael Moore/PETA agenda sort of documentary, so let's not go off on ideological diatribes here please.

I welcome your thoughts and opinions!

[Phileas]

Anything that shines a light on the practices of the food industry is welcome, in my opinion. Make no mistake, Food Inc has an agenda, but it is a worthwhile agenda and I personally share it's values.

We stopped eating mass produced meat some time ago, choosing instead to support local, organic farmers. For produce, we shop on farmer's markets and in supermarkets that buy and sell locally grown food. We don't buy any processed food anymore, nothing that contains modified anything, like for example corn starch.

Thankfully we have a thriving farm community just outside Toronto.

[hayesk]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

Thankfully we have a thriving farm community just outside Toronto.

For now.

[besson3c]

Just got back from seeing Food, Inc.


I think it was literally the best documentary I've ever seen. No celebrities, emotional heart tugging stuff (except for the section on Kevin's Law), no beat you over the head with ideology, no rants against a political party. We went with a staunch Republican and he liked the documentary very much, I think all of you will too, I highly recommend it.

What was covered (in no particular order):

- corn, corn subsidies, feeding livestock with corn, and all of the other uses we have for corn. Some focus on soybeans as well.
- factory farming, who controls it, history, what influences decisions about our food supply
- patents on genetically altered seeds, lawsuits
- illegal immigration, particularly within meat packing factories
- pricing, why veggies cost more than sodas and other corn based products
- the economics of the food industry and food supply
- organic food products, Walmart
- the influence that consumers have, regulation, the tobacco industry
- Kevin's law (relates to food inspection and safety), spread of disease
- the ineffectiveness of the FDA, a lack of inspection and safety standards
- the business of farming
- food industry lobbyists and the government (covered both the Bush and Clinton administrations)

This was all highly informative and fascinating stuff. There is soooo much we could talk about here, but it would help a great deal if I knew how many of you have seen this yet and what you found most interesting

[besson3c]

One of the main points raised within this documentary was about how there is so much that the general public doesn't know and so much that is kept from them. The demand for organic foods has been massive and growing, this in some way might be a sort of start of a market correction, but it is certainly being stifled by litigation, lack of transparency, political lobbyists, etc.

While the choices that many people make certainly play a part in our obesity and health problems (diabetes being a huge one), it certainly isn't easy to make healthy and informed situations. The food industry is essentially controlled by a few mega-corporations who are about using science and technological innovations to come up with more efficient production models and ways to sustain this highly profitable model for themselves, and these sorts of actions have consequences in the form of our diets and what we can afford to eat, health and safety, the economy, and many other things.

It's rather astonishing how all of this impacts us, really.

[Spheric Harlot]

Monsanto needs to die.

[- - e r i k - -]

Of course organic food has its very own set of problems.

[besson3c]

Oh yeah, there was a lot about Monsanto in Food, Inc.

[adamfishercox]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Of course organic food has its very own set of problems.

What are they? I'm far from being an expert on the topic, but is there a scenario where conventional farming beats organic farming for anyone but the farmers and the industry?

[Spheric Harlot]

One issue is that larger farms are actually more efficient due to economies of scale.

As bizarre as it may seem, the apple shipped from a huge farm in China in a container of 600,000 may have a smaller ecological footprint than the Apple grown on the half-acre orchard by the friendly upstate farmer on your neighborhood market.

One other issue that becomes evident here is that "organic" and "ecologically sound" are two very different terms that are not necessarily in sync.

Growing food "organically" may mean that it's simply not feasible to do where you live, so that in order to satisfy demand, "organic farming" needs to migrate to areas that are better used for other things.

It's not possible to grow enough "organic" vegetables in Northern Germany to satisfy demand at a price (not just financially) that people are willing to pay.

So "organic" vegetables are grown in Spain, where there's room, a low population density - but absolutely chronic water supply problems. They're then carted back across Europe to be sold in our supermarkets.


And even that example runs exactly counter to the one with the Chinese Apples (incidentally, much of Europe's "organic" fruit actually comes from China).


There is no cut-and-dried simple rule, except one:


Monsanto really needs to ****ing die.

[besson3c]

adamfishercox: not for the farmers either, necessarily. The major meat companies micromanage how animals are raised and slaughtered, give very little autonomy to farmers, and pay a very modest salary. It's very factory like, and in the case of growing seeds farmers are also limited by their contractors and Monsato, according to Food, Inc. When you take autonomy out of the picture, you can also increase efficiency and pay workers less. This is why many illegal immigrants flock to the meat packing plants. Unfortunately, going organic and grass fed cattle and all of that is a lot of hard work and risk.

So, I wouldn't say that it is necessarily "better" for farmers, probably just less risky.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

One issue is that larger farms are actually more efficient due to economies of scale.

As bizarre as it may seem, the apple shipped from a huge farm in China in a container of 600,000 may have a smaller ecological footprint than the Apple grown on the half-acre orchard by the friendly upstate farmer on your neighborhood market.

One other issue that becomes evident here is that "organic" and "ecologically sound" are two very different terms that are not necessarily in sync.

Growing food "organically" may mean that it's simply not feasible to do where you live, so that in order to satisfy demand, "organic farming" needs to migrate to areas that are better used for other things.

It's not possible to grow enough "organic" vegetables in Northern Germany to satisfy demand at a price (not just financially) that people are willing to pay.

So "organic" vegetables are grown in Spain, where there's room, a low population density - but absolutely chronic water supply problems. They're then carted back across Europe to be sold in our supermarkets.


And even that example runs exactly counter to the one with the Chinese Apples (incidentally, much of Europe's "organic" fruit actually comes from China).


There is no cut-and-dried simple rule, except one:


Monsanto really needs to ****ing die.

So your main point is that organic and locally grown are two separate things?

[besson3c]

Spheric: IIRC Monsato controls 90% of the market. I'm not sure if that stat was a US stat or a global stat, but there was also a lot about the crazy lawsuits against people that tried to reseed and clean and stuff like that due to a violation of patents. Monsato maintains these lists of farmers that don't do what they are told, sic private investigators on them, and basically ruin them. This documentary certainly made them seem pretty evil too...

[adamfishercox]

Well, there's obviously a difference between looking at it from a persons health standpoint, versus the ecological standpoint, versus the profit/sales standpoint.

From the health point of view, you want organic and local. Which one is more important depends on the vegetable and how much it gets sprayed, how much nutrition it loses in transit, etc.

I *think* that that's what Food Inc. focuses most on, no? The impact it has on the consumer?

[besson3c]

Sorry, little fragments from this documentary keep on surfacing that relate to the discussion here...

Regarding "problems with organic", I would say the misleading labeling and the takeovers. For instance, Tom's toothpaste here has this sort of organic good Earth vibe to it since they started out independently, but they have since been bought out by Colgate and probably continue to package their products in the same way. A great many so-called organic products are owned by larger companies now, it's probably hit and miss what happens to these products and how they are made when these takeovers occur. So much is controlled by so few companies.

As far as labeling go, many products have these sorts of 1930s American farm themes on their labels when they are just another corn based product produced by a mega-corporation. It's hard for consumers to really know what they are getting based on packaging alone, and in many cases it is very difficult to change labels without a huge legal battle.

There is a huge veil put up between us and what these products are actually all about, according to this documentary.

[adamfishercox]

Tom's is owned by Colgate? Ugh. Odwalla, too is a good example, being now owned by Coca-Cola.

[- - e r i k - -]

The Penn & Teller Bullshit episode on Organic Food deals with most issues touched upon with regards to organic food. Taste, nutritional value, ecology, pesticides etc. in its usual irreverent way. Go look it up.

And yes, organic and locally grown are two separate things.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

Well, there's obviously a difference between looking at it from a persons health standpoint, versus the ecological standpoint, versus the profit/sales standpoint.

From the health point of view, you want organic and local. Which one is more important depends on the vegetable and how much it gets sprayed, how much nutrition it loses in transit, etc.

I *think* that that's what Food Inc. focuses most on, no? The impact it has on the consumer?

The impact it has on us, the economy, the industry, policy making, the entire kit and kaboodle.

Sorry to be so babbley about this film, it clearly left a very strong impression on me. It was truly fascinating learning about this complex machine.

[- - e r i k - -]

If you want just the facts and none of the irreverence:

Organic Food Myths

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/fe...s-organic-food

[besson3c]

Guys,

I really fear the future after seeing this documentary. It wasn't overtly trying to pump the viewer full of fear, but it was mentioned that this system could collapse, and it seemed clear to me that much could go wrong. I'm worried about the increase in diabetes (1 in 3 kids), obesity, and economic strain and what this impact might eventually have. I mean, even though they pump these products full of all sorts of chemicals, there is something unsettling and gross about the factory meat farming in particular, and how easy it would be for another major food epidemic of much larger proportion to take place. It's not just meat either, you guys remember the spinach recall, right?

The FDA is notoriously slow to respond to this (a recall was issued 16 days after the death of a boy who died from E-Coli from meat, for instance) probably due to having too few resources and power, I have no faith in these companies to take safer, more conservative actions to prevent this sort of stuff, and in the meantime the perpetual drive to make more money and improve efficiency continues. What would stop a major health epidemic from happening? Perhaps one could argue that we're already in the midst of one with diabetes and obesity, but even one spread in our food seems highly likely to me too.

There is a reason why we rarely see the insides of these factory farms, they are truly disgusting.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

If you want just the facts and none of the irreverence:

Organic Food Myths

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/fe...s-organic-food

Thanks for the URLs, Erik, the first one was a good read, I'm still reading through these...

I guess it should be made clear that this is about organic food *products*, not about organic food in general. Obviously there is a difference between going to a farmers market and getting something directly from a local farmer vs. going into the supermarket and getting something with a flashy organic food label.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

So your main point is that organic and locally grown are two separate things?

No, my main point is that "better" isn't necessarily what you expect it to be.

Even in two cases that look ostensibly the same.



Also regarding monsanto lawsuits: there was a highly publicized one where they tried to ruin a Canadian farmer - just a few months ago, in fact.

Genetically modified soy or corn or whatever had contaminated his fields - because that's what HAPPENS in nature, even if you try to own it.

He kept some of the seeds in a stash to sow the next season, because that is how farming has worked since the dawn of man until Monsanto came along.

They sued him for keeping and sowing their patented grain without paying them for it. Despite the fact that he neither wanted this, nor even had a choice.

These people own your government, btw, and they're well on their way into owning the European Union. They've already destroyed Indian agriculture and directly caused the biggest wave of suicides amongst Indian farmers in recorded history, and they're on the verge of eradicating centuries-old farming traditions and whole subspecies of corn in central America with their contaminate-then-license-then-dominate business strategy.

They are the single most truly evil corporate entity I have yet seen.

[besson3c]

Spheric: yeah, that dude that was sued was in Food, Inc. I can't remember his name off the top of my head though...

[sdilley14]

I'd really like to see this but it isn't even playing in my state.

[besson3c]

sdilley: my wife contacted the company and they told her that the DVD will be out in the Fall. I guess we'll have to keep this thread going until then!

[besson3c]

Here is the Food, Inc. trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eKYy...mp;feature=fvw

The first few minutes of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh8c9...layer_embedded

Jim Kramer speculates that Monsanto's monopoly will be broken up by the Obama administration, and some general info on Monsanto:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_264115.html

[sdilley14]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

sdilley: my wife contacted the company and they told her that the DVD will be out in the Fall. I guess we'll have to keep this thread going until then!

Thanks for the heads up, I'll keep my eye out for it.