[besson3c]

It seems like those of us who don't actually believe that GMail is "free" are in the minority...

Most people seem to view the internet as this place where you can find all of this neat free stuff, and have no qualms with using and providing data to these services for their entertainment purposes. Facebook is neat, but it is not "free". Neither is GMail nor MySpace or anything else. I find myself feeling tin foilhattey advising people that these companies want to control your data particularly because few seem to care, but I also feel like this has to be understood.

Not only are there privacy issues with these sorts of services, but what happens when/if you want to move to a different email service, or a user agreement changes and you don't like these changes (or aren't aware of them or don't bother to read them like most people including myself), or one of these companies just decides to start charging for their service and you want out? How many people have researched adequately whether there is a data export function of some sort to a useful format? How many people have thought about the fact that their data has tremendous value to some people, and are bothered by "helping" companies push more effective ads at them?

I often wonder where all of this is headed, there has to be a point where this bubble bursts and there are real, significant problems. Consider somebody who is an avid Facebook/MySpace/GMail user. Think about all of the significant information you could gleam from mining these profiles. There is the possibility of a mailing address and social and stuff like that (and I'm sure that many people have emailed confidential info to and from their GMail accounts, and if they are a business this would literally be putting themselves at legal risk), but I'm also talking about silly individual things like where one went to school, their political beliefs, their religious beliefs, etc. Put it all together and you could pretty much build a complete profile of somebody's life and fill in the blanks with logical deductions. When is this going to come back and haunt? You have to think that at some point this will start causing actual problems, particularly when a large part of the population seems blissfully unaware of how these companies make money? Are any of you creeped out at the notion that some stranger might know just about everything about you and are happy to sell this information to others?

You can include cell phone networks and text messaging into the mix. I've read sites which suggest that certain phones/networks can be trivial to compromise. I often wonder if some cell phone companies don't sort of have under-the-table deals with advertisers to sell information about text messaging habits (or even the content itself), because this data surely is tremendously valuable to data mine.

Do you think it is paranoid to be a little concerned where all of this is headed? I enjoy Facebook now and then, I'm not anti any of this stuff really nor would I categorize myself as paranoid (mostly just concerned), I'm just a little amazed at these new norms and the lack of questioning and comfort level of people with all of this sort of stuff.

Your thoughts?

[mattyb]

Move out of the US, where you do not own data pertaining to you.

[Chuckit]

I have no evidence that Google associates the limited set of data it mines from our email with any personally identifying information. So unless something is going on that I don't know about, avoiding Gmail because of that seems actually less reasonable than walking around wearing a Guy Fawkes mask and using a voice changer all the time to avoid people data-mining your face with their brains.

[besson3c]

Chuckit: you think that Google sells information to advertisers without giving them a sense of your demographic, such as your age, the state you live in, *something*? What value does purely anonymous data have to an advertiser? What evidence do you have that Google does *not* do this? More importantly, how many people have considered any of this?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Your thoughts?

It's all down to one fact: Most people are morons.

Not wishing to get into politics here in the sane lounge, but have a look at how much poop (lies, false promises, more lies) we put up with from our politicians (of all sides). Why do people put up with that? Same reason that they don't care about data mining: They're morons.

Why do people put up with Windows? Answer: They're morons.

Why do people put up with reality TV? Answer: They're morons.

That said, I do actually have a gmail account for use when I don't trust someone enough to give them my real details. And google they can mine that gmail account all they like, since no information connecting the real me to it ever gets near it. Counterintelligence FTW!

[Laminar]

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

It's all down to one fact: Most people are morons.

Not wishing to get into politics here in the sane lounge, but have a look at how much smoke (lies, false promises, more lies) we put up with from our politicians (of all sides). Why do people put up with that? Same reason that they don't care about data mining: They're morons.

Why do people put up with Windows? Answer: They're morons.

Why do people put up with reality TV? Answer: They're morons.

That said, I do actually have a gmail account for use when I don't trust someone enough to give them my real details. And google they can mine that gmail account all they like, since no information connecting the real me to it ever gets near it. Counterintelligence FTW!

Well, people *are* morons, but I've used Facebook in the past, I text message some people, so it's not like I can say that I avoid all of these data networks enough to be in a good place to criticize others for using them. I'm mostly just wondering out loud where all of this is headed. There is always a trail that leads to money, and you can never under-estimate the lack of restraint people have in finding creative new ways to make a buck.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I'm mostly just wondering out loud where all of this is headed.

I'll tell a little story from some months back which may provide a hint of where we're headed.

I needed a couple of USB memory sticks. Kingston DT1s. Had a shop around, most folks were out of stock. Found a company, popped an order in online.
Next day, I got an email asking me to call them, since I'd never ordered before. Did so. They said I couldn't order anything off them without providing further ID because I didn't show up in any of the records. That's not their records, that's the shared data-mined resource which companies and government all pass around.
So, told 'em to stuff it and ordered off the second-choice company.

But maybe that provides a little insight into where this is all heading? Maybe at some point in the future there'll be signs on shop doors: "No shirt, no shoes, no Facebook, no service"?

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

They said I couldn't order anything off them without providing further ID because I didn't show up in any of the records. That's not their records, that's the shared data-mined resource which companies and government all pass around.

Not even POLICE records ?

[besson3c]

Doofy, here's another taste of where things are going:

Many Universities here in the States are outsourcing their academic email systems to Google and Microsoft (and possibly Yahoo). Some Universities are going even further in no longer providing copies of MS Office, and having the students use Google Docs.

The agreements that are worked out are essentially that Google/Microsoft will allow Universities to direct people to their service where they will create accounts with the University's domain attached to it, and will even provide some support in exchange for this student data. The University looks hip in claiming a "partnership" with Microsoft/Google, they get to save money in the process. This student data doesn't simply live for the 4 years where students are enrolled in the university, but exists forever. Most of these students have no idea that their account is not some special university account but just a regular garden variety Google/Microsoft account with the University's domain, so they mostly are happy to go ahead and have an account created.

It used to be that University email accounts were created in part so that the University can trace email deliveries between students and professors and stuff to make sure that classes run smoothly (it is easy for students or professors to claim that they "never got an email", for instance) and also so that campus and local law enforcement can request access to accounts if a student is thought to be doing something illegal such as harassing or even getting mixed up in acts of terrorism (I've heard of the feds even getting involved with suspect students who are here on student VISAs). Now, this is all goes through Google/Microsoft, and I'm pretty certain that they need far more authority than campus police. When/if an email account can be preserved for the sake of legal action, there is no way to really assure when or how this is done since the University no longer owns this data.

On top of this, in many states it is illegal for staff and other employees of government run institutions such as state funded universities to use these systems for work purposes because the government is supposed to own and have control over this data. Many institutions (government run or not) archive every single work owned email message for various purposes. So, in the case of these aforementioned universities, employees are being told not to create accounts on these systems if they are employed by the university.

It gets to be a real legal mess when you consider students that are both employed and are simultaneously students, statuses that constantly change (Universities typically provide a ton of employment), and simply enforcing this basic message. This must be nearly impossible to control.

Still, running an email system for tens/hundreds of thousands of employees is damn expensive. At some point the allure of a "free" email system no doubt is irresistible to many (and is of benefit to tax payers). Google and Microsoft do not provide an email system where they do *not* mine data. If you want to use their system, your data will be mined, period. With the Universities they are creating new lifetime customers by pushing students into getting these accounts while the customer is young (the percentage of people that migrate off of an email account they are settled in on is very small) for those that continue to use their email accounts beyond their graduation, and I personally feel it is just a matter of time before most institutions whom we trust with private data (and Universities *do* have records of things such as social security numbers) start using these systems and "accidents" happen but are covered up and kept from the public.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Not even POLICE records ?

Not as far as I'm aware.

Recently thought it might be a good idea to get a credit report on myself. Received this back:

Originally Posted by Experian

Dear DOOFY,

We are committed to protecting your personal information and therefore employ a rigorous identity verification system. Unfortunately, we have been unable to confirm your identity.

To ensure that we can process your order as quickly as possible, please provide us with the following proof of identity:

Two forms of original documentation linking you to your current address (e.g. utility bill, bank statement, solicitor's letter) dated within the past three months

Plus,

A copy of either your passport, both parts of your full (not provisional) driving licence or birth certificate

Please post this information to the following address:

CreditExpert Customer Service
PO Box 7710
Nottingham
NG80 7WE

Proper outlaw, me.

[olePigeon]

I stopped caring when it was completely out of my hands.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Not as far as I'm aware.

Recently thought it might be a good idea to get a credit report on myself. Received this back:



Proper outlaw, me.

Hehe, this is awesome. Please tell me that you submitted your request as "Doofy"?

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Chuckit: you think that Google sells information to advertisers without giving them a sense of your demographic, such as your age, the state you live in, *something*? What value does purely anonymous data have to an advertiser? What evidence do you have that Google does *not* do this? More importantly, how many people have considered any of this?

Google doesn't give the information to the advertiser, they let the advertiser tell Google which terms should trigger their ads. Google isn't going to let the data get into someone else's hands - they'd lose their advantage.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

Google doesn't give the information to the advertiser, they let the advertiser tell Google which terms should trigger their ads. Google isn't going to let the data get into someone else's hands - they'd lose their advantage.

Correct, I knew this I just wasn't speaking accurately

Still, these advertisers can in turn track incoming sales accordingly, and of course clickthroughs and whatever else.

[Doofy]

If you want a good example of what you're talking about, Bess, go look at Phorm. Evil dickwads, right there.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Correct, I knew this I just wasn't speaking accurately

Still, these advertisers can in turn track incoming sales accordingly, and of course clickthroughs and whatever else.

Yes, but that's irrelevant since I never click on ads, and it wouldn't be relevant even if I did because knowing that somebody clicked through based on that ad tells them next to nothing about me.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Yes, but that's irrelevant since I never click on ads, and it wouldn't be relevant even if I did because knowing that somebody clicked through based on that ad tells them next to nothing about me.

Sure, but they would that their ads were put on, for instance, the MacNN forums because Google felt that a lot of potential customers were here. The company would then know that Google feels that Mac users are an important demographic, and it wouldn't be too difficult to analyze this and see that most of the MacNN forums are male, young, are interested in high tech gadgets, etc.

Advertisers using Google may not be directly sold a list of names, but through Google I think they have a pretty good idea what the demographic of the people seeing and/or clicking on their ads consists of. It would be silly of a company to invest in advertising if they had no idea what demographic they were reaching. Demographics are a vital part of any marketing campaign.

[ort888]

You haven't even mentioned DVRs. TiVo not only knows what you are watching, they know when you are fast forwarding and pausing... they know it all. I remember that after janet jackson's boobiegate incident, TiVo released data that said that exact moment was the most rewound moment in their history... which immediately gave me the heebie jeebies.

So when you rewatch that Girls Gone Wild Commercial 4 times in a row at 3 AM... TiVo knows. THEY KNOW.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Sure, but they would that their ads were put on, for instance, the MacNN forums because Google felt that a lot of potential customers were here. The company would then know that Google feels that Mac users are an important demographic, and it wouldn't be too difficult to analyze this and see that most of the MacNN forums are male, young, are interested in high tech gadgets, etc.

Advertisers using Google may not be directly sold a list of names, but through Google I think they have a pretty good idea what the demographic of the people seeing and/or clicking on their ads consists of. It would be silly of a company to invest in advertising if they had no idea what demographic they were reaching. Demographics are a vital part of any marketing campaign.

And why am I worried about them knowing that a demographic to which I happen to belong often looks at their ads? How is this more worrisome than, say, watching TV? They know that a lot of people in my demographic watch Lost — should I stop watching it so I'm not part of a demographic they know about? That doesn't make sense to me. Would it follow that I should start watching The Vampire Diaries because no 20-something males normally go near that show?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

And why am I worried about them knowing that a demographic to which I happen to belong often looks at their ads? How is this more worrisome than, say, watching TV? They know that a lot of people in my demographic watch Lost — should I stop watching it so I'm not part of a demographic they know about? That doesn't make sense to me. Would it follow that I should start watching The Vampire Diaries because no 20-something males normally go near that show?

Firstly, this is all assuming that Google would never sell a snapshot of some of the data they have collected to company for their purposes. As far as I know, Google would be within their legal rights to do with your data whatever they want pretty much, including compiling and selling reports.

Secondly, while something like this might not bother you, you're dissecting this particular point to the point where my original point has lost some of its meaning. My original point was although you may have legitimate reasons to not be concerned about how Google mines your email data, this thought process just doesn't seem to take place with the vast majority of people who use these services and may need to be legitimately concerned (such as, in the case of GMail, people who would be putting themselves at risk by not having legal ownership over their email). However, my point wasn't only about Google, it was about all of the "free" services that are perused daily by millions.

I appreciate you challenging me to be accurate and I appreciate you finding points that you disagree with and expressing your disagreement, but when you don't articulate what parts of my main point that you agree with (if any), it can be a little annoying being put on the defensive to sort of nit pick over the smaller points.

[ghporter]

To me, it seems far more useful to a company like Google to aggregate the data they mine and sell in bulk. I'm a bit paranoid about some things, but details of what's in my emails are so milquetoast and boring that I can't see any commercial use from them. I do not discuss products or services I use, nor much of anything else that's meaningful to anyone but the person I'm corresponding with. The most "interesting" stuff I've sent via a Google mail account has been queries about details in job offers I've received-and I went out fishing for those offers through CareerBuilder.com and Monster...not exactly private venues.

[Chuckit]

I disagree that there are privacy issues with giving non-essential data to reputable companies with clearly stated privacy policies. I mean, the most sensitive info Google has about me anyway is my email address and password. If Google gives somebody information that can be traced back to me, I will be happy because I can sue them and retire to an island somewhere with much better privacy than I'll ever have here in society.

I also think concerns over privacy are a bit overblown. Like I said, every time I walk down the street, total strangers with no privacy policy whatsoever get all kinds of personally identifying information about me. Do I stress over this? No. Ultimately, it doesn't do me any harm. Yes, we need our privacy, but we don't need absolute privacy — I don't think that's even a worthwhile goal.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I disagree that there are privacy issues with giving non-essential data to reputable companies with clearly stated privacy policies. I mean, the most sensitive info Google has about me anyway is my email address and password. If Google gives somebody information that can be traced back to me, I will be happy because I can sue them and retire to an island somewhere with much better privacy than I'll ever have here in society.

First of all, what percentage of people understand not to use these accounts to transmit non-essential data, if by this you mean confidential/sensitive information?

Secondly, what makes you think that their terms of service prohibit selling information that can be traced back to you? You never get something for nothing. I haven't looked at their ToS, but it wouldn't surprise me if they do this, because why not? There is no backup, no guarantee of availability, and no ownership of data involved with a free account. They can use your data as they please in exchange for free access to their system, as I understand it. If they don't openly sell information to people, fine, great, but I don't see anything preventing them from selling reports and various other information to vendors that Google would vet. Maybe you could make the same argument about commercial vendors too, but at least their entire reputation collapses when this is exposed. With Google, why should it collapse? There were never any real guarantees of privacy to begin with.

Thirdly, again, you are making this about you and your personal use. My original post was about the general public and where this is all going.

I also think concerns over privacy are a bit overblown. Like I said, every time I walk down the street, total strangers with no privacy policy whatsoever get all kinds of personally identifying information about me. Do I stress over this? No. Ultimately, it doesn't do me any harm. Yes, we need our privacy, but we don't need absolute privacy — I don't think that's even a worthwhile goal.

So where is all of this going? Have you seen the Caprica pilot yet? It doesn't seem that far fetched that somebody could scour the internet and build complete profiles of people ranging from who they have dated, where they have lived, even what their current house looks like, etc. Don't you think that there is a balance between paranoia and a completely blasé attitude? My original point was that it seems like blasé is winning right now, but perhaps it will only win until it no longer can?

[besson3c]

A great example is this very forum. How long will it be before software is able to trace back our handles here to our real identity somehow? I mean, with me it's super easy because my real life name happens to be besson3c, but if you were to Google me on these forums you'd find out all sorts of things about me: that I like oatmeal, that I'm handsome, that I like ointment, etc.

At times I really worry about somebody coming up with a fake besson3c.

[- - e r i k - -]

Kanye West doesn't care about data mining.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

To me, it seems far more useful to a company like Google to aggregate the data they mine and sell in bulk.

Google will never sell this data. Holding this data is what give Google their power. They will take money from companies and advertise to users based on the data, but no one else will ever get access to it. Google would be foolish to ever allow that.

I'm a bit paranoid about some things, but details of what's in my emails are so milquetoast and boring that I can't see any commercial use from them. I do not discuss products or services I use, nor much of anything else that's meaningful to anyone but the person I'm corresponding with. The most "interesting" stuff I've sent via a Google mail account has been queries about details in job offers I've received-and I went out fishing for those offers through CareerBuilder.com and Monster...not exactly private venues.

Your emails, regardless of email service pass through a number of networks. You have little control over whether your ISP, the recipient's ISP, the recipient, etc store the email. Google is no different.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

Google will never sell this data. Holding this data is what give Google their power. They will take money from companies and advertise to users based on the data, but no one else will ever get access to it. Google would be foolish to ever allow that.

Why wouldn't they sell a subset of this data as a snapshot? The data that gives Google their power is not so much historical data (although this has value too), but up-to-the-minute data and the ability to create your own views and reports from this data.

Your emails, regardless of email service pass through a number of networks. You have little control over whether your ISP, the recipient's ISP, the recipient, etc store the email. Google is no different.

I don't understand this argument. Are you talking about in transit? Of course the ISPs of the sender and recipient store this email if it is an IMAP or Exchange account, how could they not? There is a big difference between Google and a commercial hosting provider. With a commercial hosting provider it is against the law to mine your email store unless this is a part of your user agreement (which it typically isn't), whereas with Google it's a given that they will be data mining.

I'm assuming you didn't mean this literally?

[Uncle Skeleton]

I had a friend in college who was afraid to sign up for a Safeway Club card because then The Man would know what foods he buys. I told him, good, if they're going to try to target advertisements and promotions at me, I would prefer they use products I might actually like and not a random assortment of TV dinners and adult diapers. They might even inform me of new products I will like that I otherwise wouldn't ever find.

Some details about my life are simply not important, and most things that travel by email are in that category. After all, email could get hacked or spoofed at any time, it's in my interest to keep it low-risk regardless of provider. I'm not saying that email is free. I'm saying that the cost is perfectly acceptable, and in fact it might even benefit me (I'm going to be seeing ads either way, so they might as well be ads someone thinks I will like).

[besson3c]

Skeleton: I'm sure you aren't alone. What concerns me most is not disposable email, but email related to business, personal matters, whatever. Do you know people that use free email accounts for this sort of thing? Do you know people that are concerned with their privacy and security?

I'm not necessarily saying that these people should be afraid of anything in particular, I just wonder if this attitude increases to the point where this does become a problem? I mean, is it not logical to think that some of these companies will push and push the privacy barrier so long as it profits them until somebody pushes back? Right now the prevalent attitude seems to be just what you said, a pretty blasé attitude since you don't discuss anything of importance with that account, but that doesn't stop the role of an account shifting over time, people emailing the wrong account, or whatever. Of course, we are just fixating on email which is a small part of our digital lifestyles. I think it is foolish to underestimate corporate greed, and I generally think it is smart to encourage a heightened awareness of privacy related issues rather than a completely oblivious one.

Do you agree?

[freudling]

besson3c:

You raise a good issue...

I think where it is headed is that informed people concerned about privacy will just host their own Email, Blogs, Websites, chat programs, etc.

There may be server solutions more clearly defined for two different segments of the market: one for business, the other for personal use. And it will act more as a hub for entertainment as well for the personal server solutions.

We're seeing the beginnings of this with things like the AppleTV, and even some features that are easy to set up on Apple's OS X Server.

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Skeleton: I'm sure you aren't alone. What concerns me most is not disposable email, but email related to business, personal matters, whatever. Do you know people that use free email accounts for this sort of thing? Do you know people that are concerned with their privacy and security?

I'm not necessarily saying that these people should be afraid of anything in particular, I just wonder if this attitude increases to the point where this does become a problem? I mean, is it not logical to think that some of these companies will push and push the privacy barrier so long as it profits them until somebody pushes back? Right now the prevalent attitude seems to be just what you said, a pretty blasé attitude since you don't discuss anything of importance with that account, but that doesn't stop the role of an account shifting over time, people emailing the wrong account, or whatever. Of course, we are just fixating on email which is a small part of our digital lifestyles. I think it is foolish to underestimate corporate greed, and I generally think it is smart to encourage a heightened awareness of privacy related issues rather than a completely oblivious one.

Do you agree?

I think you missed a crucial point. It's not free email that's unsecured, it's all email. If there's anything you wouldn't want Google or MS to know, you shouldn't be putting it in email period. Even aside from hackers, I'm not supposed to mention any animal research (which is what I do) in my professional email at the institution I work at, because it's a public university and PETA can get all my emails through FOIA. Nothing confidential should ever be in your "digital lifestyle" to begin with. This actually makes things simpler: you don't have to worry at all about data mining, because any data you wouldn't want mined is never in play to begin with, it's offline.

[CreepDogg]

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Even aside from hackers, I'm not supposed to mention any animal research (which is what I do) in my professional email at the institution I work at, because it's a public university and PETA can get all my emails through FOIA.

Wow, scary. Never thought about that one (but that's a FOIA thing).

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Even aside from hackers, I'm not supposed to mention any animal research (which is what I do) in my professional email at the institution I work at, because it's a public university and PETA can get all my emails through FOIA.

But then how am I supposed to get those great new BBQ recep - ooooh, PETA. I thought you meant PETA.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

I think you missed a crucial point. It's not free email that's unsecured, it's all email.

Nearly all. I don't think you'll be cracking Doof's private key any time soon.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Many Universities here in the States are outsourcing their academic email systems to Google and Microsoft (and possibly Yahoo). Some Universities are going even further in no longer providing copies of MS Office, and having the students use Google Docs.

I haven't heard of this happening. At all. Could you possibly provide some examples or cite some articles that talk about this movement to offsite services?

I doubt entirely that any public institution would move to using Gmail for Domains rather than dedicated mail. Maybe for the students, but most definitely not for the employees.

The paranoia about Google and Facebook is so silly to me. It's only because of the Internet that people have started rethinking their privacy. You've never had that much privacy unless you never use anyone else's services at all.

Do you have a credit card or a check card? Your credit card company could easily build a surprisingly accurate profile of you just based on the products you buy. Same goes for the public library, by looking at a record of the books and periodicals you tend to read. Stores obviously track sales, and television networks track viewers. Does that bother you, too?

Every major site on the Internet is tracking you. At the very least, they're tracking your location and where you're navigating on a website. So what? It's not personally identifiable information. So what if Google knows your age and gender (if you choose to give it them; this is not mandatory information to have a Google account)? I doubt I'm the only 25-year-old girl living in Indiana. Nobody's going to find me based on information that vague.

If you're that paranoid about people knowing vague things about you - or possibly reading your email and other communications - get off the Internet. Entirely. The second that you put something in some easily copied form (text on a screen), you're more or less giving up your exclusive right to that content. Most current-generation IM clients (multiprotocol and official clients) log IMs by default. If you send an email to someone, they now have a copy of that email. If you have a blog on the Internet, anyone can steal your content.

Besson, you mentioned something along the lines of people being able to trace back one's online identity to their real-life identity. To be honest, I'm not sure that this is a bad thing for society. The Internet has been incredibly damaging on a sociological level. It's easy to brutally harass people you don't even know (and people you do know) completely anonymously. Ever hear about Megan Meier? Someone decided to harass her over MySpace by posing as a nonexistent boy with a crush on Megan. When things turned ugly, she couldn't take it - and she committed suicide. There are people from sites like Encyclopedia Dramatica who make a career out of ruining the lives of people they've never actually met in real life.

The lack of anonymity could be a very good thing - it would force people to be civil on the Internet, and it would hold people responsible for their actions instead of essentially allowing social anarchy to run rampant. Sure, the ability to completely and totally anonymous on the Internet is fun, but is it necessary? Is it beneficial in the bigger picture of society as a whole?

[- - e r i k - -]

Anonymous disagree.

Transparency is good. We have always been at war with Eurasia. War is peace.

[Phileas]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I haven't heard of this happening. At all. Could you possibly provide some examples or cite some articles that talk about this movement to offsite services?

Lakehead University in Thunder Bay is using google for everything, mail, docs. As far as I know they did make a deal with google, ensuring privacy.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I doubt I'm the only 25-year-old girl living in Indiana. Nobody's going to find me based on information that vague.

I doubt there's many 25-year-old girls who used to work in education moving from Indiana to DC in the next 24 hours.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

The lack of anonymity could be a very good thing - it would force people to be civil on the Internet, and it would hold people responsible for their actions instead of essentially allowing social anarchy to run rampant. Sure, the ability to completely and totally anonymous on the Internet is fun, but is it necessary? Is it beneficial in the bigger picture of society as a whole?

You've not heard of the concept of "identity theft" then Shif?

[starman]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Do you have a credit card or a check card? Your credit card company could easily build a surprisingly accurate profile of you just based on the products you buy. Same goes for the public library, by looking at a record of the books and periodicals you tend to read. Stores obviously track sales, and television networks track viewers. Does that bother you, too?

The lack of anonymity could be a very good thing - it would force people to be civil on the Internet, and it would hold people responsible for their actions instead of essentially allowing social anarchy to run rampant. Sure, the ability to completely and totally anonymous on the Internet is fun, but is it necessary? Is it beneficial in the bigger picture of society as a whole?

Wait, weren't you the one all pissy about giving Apple your information?

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Do you have a credit card or a check card? Your credit card company could easily build a surprisingly accurate profile of you just based on the products you buy. Same goes for the public library, by looking at a record of the books and periodicals you tend to read. Stores obviously track sales, and television networks track viewers. Does that bother you, too?

Given your address (that's right, I don't even need your name - they'll give me that), I can tell you nearly everything I'd ever want to know about you. I can find out whether you own a dog or whether you change your own oil or whether you like to do crossword puzzles or whether you're religious or whether you scuba dive or grow vegetables in the back yard or whether you hunt with a bow and whether you own a color printer. The will tell me who your long distance carrier is, who your cell phone is with, how much you spend on your cell phone, what countries you make international calls to, and who makes your travel arrangements. They will even give me the birth dates of your children and whether you wear glasses.

Oh, and it's really cheap (think pennies). You can thank Equifax for that. I'm not exaggerating. They have a 12 page (2 columns per page) list of the "data elements" available through their "Data Enhancement" service. They're not even the only company in this market. You can get competing quotes for these services.

Facebook is the least of your worries.

[besson3c]

Shif: it looks like more universities are starting to use services such as the ones Google offer than don't. I can list a few universities I know off the top of my head, but if you want evidence for yourself why not just Google "university email gmail". Tons of examples there.

As far as the rest of your email, what is being tracked in and of itself doesn't bother me nearly as much as the fact that most people either seem blissfully unaware or don't give a ****, and gladly sign up for new ways to be tracked without hesitation. Like I've been saying, if nobody cares, where is all of this going?

[besson3c]

Doofy, I hate to say it, but your personal identity is not all that secure... Check this out

[Doofy]

Oh crap. Rumbled. Quick Bess, edit it out, edit it out!

[ort888]

I only worry about data mining when the canary dies.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Oh crap. Rumbled. Quick Bess, edit it out, edit it out!

I'll edit it out after you admit to everybody here how incredibly smart, handsome, and right about stuff I always am, as well as that I'm the best there is.

Deal?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Many Universities here in the States are outsourcing their academic email systems to Google and Microsoft (and possibly Yahoo). Some Universities are going even further in no longer providing copies of MS Office, and having the students use Google Docs.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

I haven't heard of this happening. At all. Could you possibly provide some examples or cite some articles that talk about this movement to offsite services?

Real life example: The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. In the case of my alma mater, it's MS, not Google, but it's the same issue-and the school's administration was not too keen on listening to the IT folks' concerns about privacy and data security until patient information was mentioned (HIPAA and all that). But they went with it, and I wound up with a "Live" email addy for life... It DOES happen, and there's pretty serious competition between MS and Google for that business.

[tightsocks]

Newly Declassified Files Detail Massive FBI Data-Mining Project | Threat Level | Wired.com

[besson3c]

So guys, who here would use this web app?