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besson3c · Oct 30, 2009, 04:15 PM

User experience is enhanced by interoperability and the simplicity brought about by having standards.

I would not have a good user experience if SMTP didn't exist and every time I sent a message each receiving server had to fallback to three or four different competing protocols and we all had to hope and pray that everything worked and that whatever problems existed were simple enough to recognize and sort out.

I'm not as optimistic as some of you are on the future of the cellphone market, because in the early days of the internet when new infrastructure was being built, standards were being derived at the same time. I don't see that happening now, I see everybody vying for control and dominance, and walled gardens galore.

- How do you get your data onto the phone if it is not supported by iTunes, or whatever the equivalent is with the other smartphone vendors, and it is not hosted by a cloud service?

- How do we provide push email services? Push email services are not only about getting email to people faster, but are also about conserving battery life and allowing phones to smartly notify you of the emails like they can for text messages

- What kind of dance does one have to do if they are interested in tethering? This feature seems so on again/off again. My first phone allowed me to tether after I jumped through all sorts of hoops and dialed this weird number, but the carrier silently discontinued this.

- How do you get files such as ringtones and pictures to and from your phone? How do we know which phone features Verizon has disabled? My Verizon rep doesn't know what iSync is. If they don't, how do we know whether this feature has been disabled on a phone?

- How do you get your stuff onto new phones?

- Will we ever be able to own, rather than rent our phones?

I'm sure each of these points can be picked apart, but don't bother, this is just off the top of my head stuff and I have no doubt that some of these points are flawed. My overall point is that it is incredibly hairy figuring all of this stuff out, figuring out what features are enabled on your phone and how to disable them so that your monthly bill is what it ought to be, etc. The fact that I have to go to a Verizon shop and wait in line to do stuff I ought to be able to do through the phone itself or the Verizon website is lame.

All of this seems to point back to a very young industry, but also one that seems to be about control and dominance right now rather than devising standards that are shared and accepted throughout the industry.

turtle777 · Oct 30, 2009, 04:39 PM

No, you're not getting it.

Nobopdy says the "guts" are not important. They are. But nobody is excited about it working, because THAT'S EXPECTED. It's like being excited that McDonald's sells the Big Mac. It's expected.

Apple just gets it right with having powerful guts, wrapped in a perfect GUI/user experience.
Many of your comments above ("How do you get your stuff onto new phones?") have been solved so that it works well for most users. The geeks that want eleventy billion ways to get stuff on their phone are NOT important to Apple. They don't pay the bills.

-t

besson3c · Oct 30, 2009, 04:43 PM

So, what about all of the other cellphone users in the world that don't have, don't want, can't get, or can't afford an iPhone? Is the proper response "tough, you are not in Apple's little bubble"?

turtle777 · Oct 30, 2009, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

So, what about all of the other cellphone users in the world that don't have, don't want, can't get, or can't afford an iPhone? Is the proper response "tough, you are not in Apple's little bubble"?

From my (subjective) view, yes.

But they always have the option if becoming self-proclaimed geeks that get a hard-on when thinking about the open sauce guts.

-t

besson3c · Oct 30, 2009, 05:46 PM

I'll keep this in mind the next time you prattle on about the virtues of free market competition, turtle.

turtle777 · Oct 30, 2009, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I'll keep this in mind the next time you prattle on about the virtues of free market competition, turtle.

Oh for Pete's sakes, what does that have to do with it ?

Do you even know what you're talking about ?

Every cell phone company is free to produce an iPhone killer, there are no laws or barriers of entry imposed by the government.

Or do you believe that there is an inherent, god-given right for every person on the planet to get an iPhone killer cell phone at a lower cost than Apple's ?

-t

besson3c · Oct 30, 2009, 06:12 PM

Since you don't seem willing to acknowledge the problems of not having standards, why don't we just ditch CDMA and GSM and have each phone maker come up with their own cell phone protocol, their own cell phone towers, their own carrier, their own email systems for their devices to access, their own software, their own Desktop PCs and Desktop software for their customers to use with their phones, and just go whole hog on the whole thing?

Tell me, Turtle, why do we need standards at all?

turtle777 · Oct 30, 2009, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Tell me, Turtle, why do we need standards at all?

Besson, sorry, but you are beyond hope. You are mingling things together, you make no sense, and your conclusions are illogical at best.

From the very get-go in this thread, you have shown uncanny ability to continuously confuse the guts (standards, base technology) with what the consumers look for in the market place (good GUI and user experience).

Every time you ~~try to derail~~ introduce a new tangent you get lost, and so does common sense and logic of your arguments.

I don't even know what else to say, as this is leading nowhere.

-t

besson3c · Oct 30, 2009, 06:52 PM

turtle: where did I say that consumers don't look for good GUI and user experience? You're right though, there is a disconnect here...

All I was trying to say was that the Android appeal in so far as open source and openness is concerned is valuable, not because of how it will improve GUIs, but for what open standards bring to the table (including, ultimately, their indirect impact on user experience).

Does this make sense?

Spheric Harlot · Oct 30, 2009, 06:54 PM

Standards in communication are a wonderful thing.

There is not a single cellphone on the market - Open-source, closed-source, mixed, Android, Apple, Nokia, BenQ, whatever - that doesn't ALREADY FOLLOW THESE BASIC STANDARDS. It wouldn't actually BE a cellphone if it didn't.

besson, is there an actual point you're trying to make in your incongruent rambling and borderline offensive misunderestimation of turtle's posts?

What I'm getting is that Android will pressure every other manufacturer into supporting set-up of your own SMTP server, push-email and whatever else on their telephones, but that is close enough to complete irrelevance to indicate that either I've completely failed to understand what you're saying, or you've completely failed to understand how human beings work.

driven · Oct 30, 2009, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by chabig

Yes. Android is all about HOPE.

... and change.

driven · Oct 30, 2009, 06:59 PM

Android and WebOS have potential. we'll see how that plays out. (Especially in the enterprise, which is where I develop software for mobile devices.) Currently we know we'll make money on BB, WinMobile, iPhone, and Symbian. We'll have to wait and see what Android / WebOS brings to the table.

besson3c · Oct 30, 2009, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Standards in communication are a wonderful thing.

There is not a single cellphone on the market - Open-source, closed-source, mixed, Android, Apple, Nokia, BenQ, whatever - that doesn't ALREADY FOLLOW THESE BASIC STANDARDS. It wouldn't actually BE a cellphone if it didn't.

besson, is there an actual point you're trying to make in your incongruent rambling and borderline offensive misunderestimation of turtle's posts?

What I'm getting is that Android will pressure every other manufacturer into supporting set-up of your own SMTP server, push-email and whatever else on their telephones, but that is close enough to complete irrelevance to indicate that either I've completely failed to understand what you're saying, or you've completely failed to understand how human beings work.

Would you like to understand what I'm trying to say, or would clarifications be a waste of my time?

Spheric Harlot · Oct 30, 2009, 07:05 PM

I'm not entirely sure.

Reading that you think you "rent" your phone rather than owning it, and that you've never seen a phone use USB mass storage for data transfer (as all mp3-capable phones I've ever seen do - except the iPhone), it might be rife with more fundamental misconceptions than are worth countering.

btw: you buy a phone, and you pay it off with your contract over 24 months. This is why the initial price gets cheaper the longer your contract runs, or the more expensive the monthly charge is.
A number of providers in Europe have started taking €10 off your monthly price if you don't buy a cellphone with your contract - or rather, they now explicitly add €10 to your contract if you finance a subsidized phone through them.

besson3c · Oct 30, 2009, 07:08 PM

Well, for starters, it might help you to not fixate on my examples and try to understand the major point I was trying to make. You've already acknowledged that standards are a wonderful thing. Pair that with a lack of them in this emerging market, and you'll be much closer to my main point.

Spheric Harlot · Oct 30, 2009, 07:10 PM

Oh, I'm probably not getting your major point then.

I obviously mistakenly assumed that your examples were intended to illustrate it.

driven · Oct 30, 2009, 07:10 PM

The beautiful thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

besson3c · Oct 30, 2009, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Oh, I'm probably not getting your major point then.

I obviously mistakenly assumed that your examples were intended to illustrate it.

My examples were my sloppy attempts to try to illustrate the importance of having standards, because my reading of what Turtle was saying was that open source/open standards are not really of value if they do not directly impact the GUI and user experience. I probably misunderstood him, and you misunderstood my misunderstanding of him!

It's all your fault turtle!

Spheric Harlot · Oct 30, 2009, 07:52 PM

Ah, but support of basic standards being equal, it *does* come down to user interaction.

Chuckit · Oct 30, 2009, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

My examples were my sloppy attempts to try to illustrate the importance of having standards, because my reading of what Turtle was saying was that open source/open standards are not really of value if they do not directly impact the GUI and user experience. I probably misunderstood him, and you misunderstood my misunderstanding of him!

It's all your fault turtle!

What do standards have to do with anything?

besson3c · Oct 30, 2009, 08:04 PM

Of course, but I think that there is reason to hope that a platform like Android might encourage development of open standards.

Spheric Harlot · Oct 30, 2009, 08:17 PM

Such As USB mass storage, GSM, POP, SMS, HSDPA, and USB chargers (as mandated by Euro law starting soon)?

Or what?

turtle777 · Oct 30, 2009, 08:19 PM

Besson, seriously, you are an intelligent chap. Most of the times.

What are you doing here ? Trolling ?

-t

Laminar · Oct 30, 2009, 08:33 PM

But guys, I don't get it.

besson3c · Oct 30, 2009, 08:47 PM

Well, this is going well...

Forget it, this is no fun.

BasketofPuppies · Nov 2, 2009, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by driven

Currently we know we'll make money on BB, WinMobile, iPhone, and Symbian. We'll have to wait and see what Android / WebOS brings to the table.

That's another thing. I hate to take my own thread off topic, but I've been wondering about this for a while.

Is it possible to make decent money selling iPhone software? It's common to see some software that costs $30 for Windows Mobile, Symbian S60 and/or BlackBerry selling for $5 on the iPhone. Microsoft and RIM discourage mobile software publishers from pricing their mobile software this low, and I suspect that it's because the answer to my question is "no."

Chuckit · Nov 2, 2009, 06:23 PM

I guess it depends on what "decent money" is. But the general answer is yes, you can make some extremely decent six-figure money on the iPhone even with sub-$5 apps just because the market is there. (Of course, it's also possible to make peanuts. Possibility is funny that way.)