[besson3c]

Dr Peter Watts, Canadian science fiction writer, beaten and arrested at US border Boing Boing


If this is true, this is downright frightening. Have any of you guys had similar US border crossing nightmares?

I was removed from the country once. Seriously...

[AKcrab]

Back in the day I used to "commute" home from college in Fairbanks, AK back to home in Haines, AK which unfortunately required a journey through Canada. The Canadian border people used to hassle me all the time. One memorable trip they told us to pull over to the side; we knew we were screwed.

For the next three hours or so, the border patrol went through all of our stuff. Mind you, the back of the truck was FULL of our belongings (two people coming home for the summer from college) and they meticulously unpacked everything, without EVER putting anything back.

While we were being searched, the border guard would just wave other cars through. Literally. Didn't even check ID's, I **** you not.

They took us inside, made us empty our pockets (and stand there with our pockets showing like the old joke "kiss the rabbit between the ears") and sat us in these chairs beneath a bulletin board with nothing but phone numbers for lawyers.

The whole time the border guard kept saying, "Just show me where the marijuana is stashed, and we'll be done with this. It's just a misdemeanor in Canada and you'll be on your way with a ticket." Yeah. Riiiiiight.

So after three hours of being searched, it was our pleasure to get the privilege of repacking all our **** and hitting the road. The border in Haines is not open 24 hours, so the jackass caused us to have to spend a night in Canada. At least due to the lower drinking age we were able to get ********d.

You have no rights at the border.

[AKcrab]

I forgot the punch-line.. At the end of the ordeal the border guard says: "Well boys, this has been a waste of my time and a waste of yours, but I get paid for my time."

Nice.

[Phileas]

Shortly after moving from good ol' Europe to Canada, I was part of a macnn meetup - daimoni, max, devils rancher etc were meeting up at Max' place in Massachusetts. This was happening only about a week after arriving in Toronto as a resident. I took the bus from Toronto to St. Catherines where scaught would be picking me up as he was driving in from Detroit.

When we arrived at the border, I had a hell of a time getting myself into the US. The conversation went something like this:

Guard: "What's your purpose of visiting the US?"
Me: "To meet a group of people I know from the interwebs."
Guard: "Oh. How long have you and the driver of this car known each other?"
We: "We met for the first time about an hour ago."

You can see where this is going. I pointed out all the US entry visas I had in my passport, I pulled up macnn on her screen - she had internet access - and finally I pulled up my company's website, with my bio. That finally convinced her that I was who I said I was.

I have to say that all through this the officer was friendly but extremely bemused and by her own admission only let me enter the US because the story we told her was "to weird to be made up".

In the end I asked her why she was so suspicious and she finally let on that it was because of my fresh Canadian resident visa. She stated that there was an influx of people coming into the US, using Canadian immigration as a stepping stone.

Personally I thought that was crock - why anybody should go and live as an illegal alian in the US when they can live legally in Canada is beyond me - but we made the appropriate noises and after I pointed out, again, that a: I had been in the US many times before and could have overstayed at any of these occasion and b: that I was a professional with no interest in a career as a dishwasher, domestic staff or crop picker she finally laughed and waved us through.

All this to meet a bunch of macnners.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Phileas 

why anybody should go and live as an illegal alian in the US when they can live legally in Canada is beyond me

For all teh freedoms?

[Eug]

A friend of mine and I were driving across Canada in two cars, but through northern US (more towns, and cheaper gas).

At the re-entry point into Canada, my friend was in the car in front of me, and he's at the border stop talking to the guard for about 10-15 minutes, and thus I'm getting worried, as both of our cars were packed solid with stuff we were moving. Finally, he moves on and I pull up. Before I have a chance to show her my ID, the very, very cute young border guard calls me by name and says "Go on thru Eug. Your friend told me all about your trip." and then waved me thru without ever checking my ID.

It turns out the conversation didn't really have much to do with the border crossing. They were just chatting each other up, and so she was in a very good mood after their 15 minute conversation.

---

Another time I was checking the home theatre forums and was told that Montgomery Ward was going through restructuring, and were liquidating some of their stores. They were selling DVD players at very cheap prices, including one player which included a free unreleased movie, for US$300. Since that movie (Dances With Wolves) was unreleased, I could get $50 or more selling the movie after I watched it, thereby getting the player for just $250, in the first year of the DVD format's launch. Comparable players were selling for almost $1000 CAD at the time.

So I quickly called the closest Montgomery Ward, which was in small town New York state, and they had one unit left. I put that on hold and told them I'd get there before they closed at 9 pm. Right after work I drove got in my car and drove, in the midst of rush hour traffic, hoping to get there by 9.

I got to the border:

Guard: How long will you be staying in the US?
Me: Just a few hours. I'm coming back tonite.
Guard: What's the purpose of your trip?
Me: To buy a DVD player.
Guard: Huh? But it's night now. You're driving here just to buy a DVD player? Aren't all the stores closed? What store?
Me: Yeah, it's much cheaper. Montgomery Ward is closing at 9.
Guard: That doesn't make sense. Montgomery Ward has gone bankrupt so their stores are closed.
Me: Many are still open, although they may close soon.
Guard: Still, why come all this way just for a player?
Me: It's only $299 and it comes with a free movie.
Guard: No way! That's impossible. $299? That's super cheap.
Me: Now you know why I'm driving across the border for this.
Guard: You GOTTA tell me which store. I'm gonna pick up one after work.
Me: It's xxxxxx store, but I'm getting the last one. You'll have to find another one.
Guard: Damn. Go on thru.
Me: Thanks, and good luck on the DVD player search.

I got to the store minutes before it closed.

[residentEvil]

got lots of stories living here in Detroit and crossing into Windsor; some good, some bad

without full details and not all in the same trip:

- have had a car stripped clean; trunk up, hood up, anything not screwed down removed, etc
- patted down
- got a car behind me busted
- been a passenger and the driver got busted
- many many duty free runs; only once got busted coming back and not declared (just had to pay the duty and let me go)

[Eug]

My idiot friends...

Border guard (without looking into the car): Are you one family?
Driver (sarcastically): Yeah, we're one big happy family.

Border looks up to see two Caucasians and two Asians, all guys in their late 20s. The guard pulled them over and searched the car from stem to stern.

Don't **** with border guards.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Don't **** with border guards.

And, if Peter Watts' side of the story is true, that appears to be the message these border guards are intending to send.

Given that Watts is a friend of Cory Doctorow, he probably knows *exactly* what his rights are, was attempting to exert them, and pissed off the US border guards as a result.

[Wiskedjak]

When working in Windsor for 3 months I traveled to Detroit at least 2-3 times per week, sometimes for client meetings, sometimes for pleasure. I was always extremely clear about the reason I was traveling to Detroit and never did any work in the US.

The US guards were often annoyed that I crossed the border so often (even though many people in Windsor traveled to Detroit at least once or twice a week) and were usually quite rude, though they never held me up for more than a few minutes.

The Canadian border guards?
Canadian border guard: "The usual?"
Me: "Yep"
Canadian border guard: " 'K. See ya later"

[Cold Warrior]

despite all of the melodrama, the link doesn't really give an account of the situation, except in a backwards-reality sort of speak that is just confusing and vague.

If it was unwarranted, then it deserves publicity. Some local officials, state or fed, are bad apples who are power-mad and self-aggrandizing bullies.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

despite all of the melodrama, the link doesn't really give an account of the situation, except in a backwards-reality sort of speak that is just confusing and vague.

Here's a bit more from Peter Watts:
No Moods, Ads or Cutesy ****ing Icons (Re-reloaded)

[el chupacabra]

One time I was arrested while trying to get into canada for vacation. Apparently I was related to someone, a US citizen, who was living illegally in canada. In a nutshell they did a full background trip on everything about me and my family, I had to provide references for where I lived, worked etc; And they released me telling me I had some number of hours to find and remove this person from their country or they would ultimately find me at my US house and arrest me. I didn't know this was legal for them until this happened. So I went and found the person and brought them back to the US.

[Laminar]

Last time I went to Canada I didn't find out I was going in enough time to submit the necessary paperwork (or so I was told) so I was instructed not to take any tools and to ensure the guards that I wasn't going to be doing work, just meetings. The guard still grilled me about what I was going to do and I had to be very clear.

[lexapro]

I once flew to Canada from the USA in order to see friends for 3 days. When asked why I was only going for 3 days I indicated that's all the vacation time I had and really missed my friends. They didn't understand this and had me go to the side for more thorough screening. They went through my bags, my pockets and asked me extremely personal details that were none of their business. They asked why I only had a few US dollars on me and I said that I was waiting to get to Canada in order to get local currency. This also did not make sense to them and they indicated, "This is highly suspicious."

So now I am reluctant to try to go to Canada and spend money and help their stuggling economy.

[residentEvil]

oh, something important to note; my above post...was all as US citizen coming back INTO the US. never had a problem going over to/into canada.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I was removed from the country once. Seriously...

I'm still waiting to hear this story. What happened?

[lpkmckenna]

Border guards are the lowest form of life.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by BlueSky 

I'm still waiting to hear this story. What happened?

My wife (girlfriend at the time) and I were working a cruise shop together as musicians. When you are hired onto a cruise ship as musicians they have customs guys that handle your passports and handle the necessary paperwork to get you in and off the ship both in the US as well as the various ports. At the time I was in America on a student VISA.

There is some international maritime law that says that after being employed in international waters you have to return directly to your country of citizenship. Keep in mind that I was legally allowed to be in the US here... Normally what should have happened was that I'd be put on the passenger list so that I wouldn't be treated as an employee of the ship, apparently this is something they do pretty often. However, this never happened, so I was told to return to Canada.

I asked the INS guy whether my student VISA was valid, and he said that indeed it was. I said "so basically, I just have to go back to Canada, put both feet on the Canadian side of the border, and I can come back to the US that very day?" his response was basically "yeah, go do that".

Because of these orders I had to be escorted all of the way back my plane. My wife was a nervous wreck through all of this! My escort thought that this was sort of silly, I joked about being a dangerous Canadian and at the end of this whole ordeal he gave me his address so that I could send him a postcard to let him know that I was okay (which I did I think he was sort of amused by all of this.

Fast forward to my permanent resident interview with my wife, the interview where they assess whether our marriage is legit. I was, of course, asked if I was removed from the country, and when I said yes the guy's face sort of went a little flush. I explained the whole thing, and he jumped on his computer, clicked around on stuff for a few minutes seemingly quite confused or at least caught off guard. After all of that he just seemed to sort of brush off the whole incident, like it was a big ol' "whatever".


Border dudes are just there for show. If these sorts of things can be circumvented by being on a different list, this isn't terribly comforting. I worked very hard to earn my permanent residency here, but what is funny is that I'm never asked to show it when I cross the border. The border guys are usually more concerned about silly stuff like whether I have a bomb in my Birkenstocks or whether my laptop computer actually works. This is obviously fair game, but you'd think the first thing they'd ask for is ID... There are times when they just ask the basics: where were you? How long? Okay see ya! Even with a rental car...

I really can't figure out their systems. I often think that their being thorough is pretty random and mostly about gut feelings.

[besson3c]

Oh, and one time my parents were coming to visit me sometime after the whole Mad Cow scare, and they made my Mom throw away her ham sandwich she was eating at the time...

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I really can't figure out their systems. I often think that their being thorough is pretty random and mostly about gut feelings.

Does border security at checkpoints even matter a whole lot? I mean, if you're gonna get something across the border, you're not going to go strolling across the bloody official checkpoint, are you?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Does border security at checkpoints even matter a whole lot? I mean, if you're gonna get something across the border, you're not going to go strolling across the bloody official checkpoint, are you?

I think it provides an illusion of safety and a deterrence. I'm not sure about airport security, but I sure know that I hate flying in large part because of it.

[freudling]

I loathe border services, both US and Canada. Let's start with the US ones. These guys look like they just came down the mountain from hunting deer. Total rednecks looking for any excuse to exert force on anything, because they are psychopaths and overly controlling. When I went to the US the last time, this big burly guy with Ray Bans had the worst attitude from question 1. He was just looking for an excuse. There I am, well dressed in a Toyota Corolla and he's on me. Aggressive, rude, idiotic. But I made it through him. These are the kind of people I would love to fire over and over, just to see the expression on their face. They have some god complex. But it's a horrible job and nobody with any sense would ever want to do it.

Now, onto Canadian Border Patrol. I came in from another country I was visiting, and they asked me all kinds of questions about what I was doing over there. I really don't think it's legal for them to be asking those questions. At the least, I can refuse to answer them and they can talk to my lawyer if they want.

Anyway, the guy marked something in red on my customs card, and I was redistributed to a holding/search area. While I was waiting, an older Chinese lady was in front of me. They were searching all of her things. She seemed confused. Once I got up to the Searchers, they began by swabbing my bag. That bag had been dragged from many different countries and hotels. When they checked the swap for narcotics, it came back positive for a few of them. They gave me a canned statement something like: "Canada has reasonable grounds to continue searching you"... all based on a some stupid superficial swab.

Funny, I have read, on many different occasions, that some 99%+ of all American money tests positive for remnants of narcotics. So I guess if they swabbed our American money, 99% of us carrying that currency would be subject to further searches under the laws of Canada.

Anyway, they took everything out of my bags, searched everything, and found nothing, although on another swab of another bag they found more remnants of narcotics (on the bottom, outside). They said, "This is fresh, within 2 days". Inside I was laughing because I was never around narcotics to my knowledge, neither did I do any. I had nothing to hide. I did know that all they were picking up was surface garbage from bags that had been dragged around the world.

So, the fun continues. Once all of my stuff was searched, and they found remnants on the second bag, I was read my rights, and taken over to a room where I was instructed to call a lawyer. I was now a bit scared. I phoned a lawyer, and was then strip searched. Bending over, the whole bit. That was one of the worst experiences of my life. I know many people have been in the same situation.

Once they found nothing, they told me to pack up and I could go. I was very upset. I believe that if I wanted to play hardball, I could have told them to stick it and waited for a lawyer to show up. They would then have to talk to my lawyer, and not directly to me. This would have saved the strip search for the time being anyway.

Now, onto America and the 4th Amendment. From what I have read, the 4th Amendment protects Americans from unreasonable search and seizure. This is getting back to our friend Peter Watts. That a warrant, in many cases, must be issued in order to search someone. But a warrant is not a necessary condition, which I think many people mistakingly believe. But are they really mistaken? Hard to say. The original wording of the 4th Amendment is pretty clear and strong: it basically says that a warrant must be sought to search someone, or else it is, for the most part, not reasonable to search someone. But it has been interpreted away by the US Supreme Court, with many precedent setting cases backing up their conclusions.

In short, "reasonable grounds" as determined by these latter... to search someone a la without a warrant, extends to many different scenarios, where the original wording of the 4th Amendment does not seem to imply such flexibility. On these interpretations of the 4th Amendment, Americans can be searched in their homes, in their cars, walking on the street, etc. All because the US Courts has extended to law enforcement very broad use of the concept of "reasonable grounds". From my terse interpretation of all this, the US Courts have allowed for the infringement of the 4th Amendment through such a flexible interpretation.

For example, with Peter Watts, if everything he is saying is true, not only was it unreasonable to search him, especially without telling him, they used excessive force.

The 4th Amendment should be upheld, and we should make it more challenging for law enforcement to be able to search us. Yes, I know their jobs of sitting in coffee shops is already hard enough, but too many of us are subject to their brutality and aggression, both in Canada and the US, as well as abroad.

Searching us at check stops, or by walking by innocently, to me, is an infringement of the 4th Amendment. There is typically no reasonable grounds to search someone as we are at check stops. In rare cases I agree with it, like if there wa a murder or terrorists attack nearby, for example. But other than that, trying to catch "drunk drivers", while laudable, is not acceptable to subject people to being stopped, questioned, and sometimes even searched by the police without a warrant. And the wording, even by the US Supreme Court, is that blanket searches, which check stops really are, is not legal.

[Doofy]

I have an inkling that the bill of rights is only applicable to US citizens. Not foreigners in the US.

[iMOTOR]

I never get stopped at DUI checkpoints. Ever.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I have an inkling that the bill of rights is only applicable to US citizens. Not foreigners in the US.

Absolutely true. However, travel to the US will likely decline if enough people are treated as though they have no rights by US border guards. Decreased travel to the US = decreased international trade and decreased tourism dollars. Also, international relations might be strained if some international governments feel that their citizens are being treated unfairly.

[freudling]

I have to admit. When I was writing about the 4th Amendment, I was more thinking of Pastor Steven Anderson. I don't know all the facts, but this case does challenge law enforcement on the grounds of them violating his 4th Amendment. He's an American citizen. Here is the whole story on video, with actual video footage of law enforcement tazing and beating him, including breaking out his windows. If he had no weapons, this behavior by Border Patrol is just unacceptable.

Actual footage:

YouTube - ACTUAL FOOTAGE Pastor Beaten Tased by Border Patrol DPS (Alex Jones) GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME

Steve's follow up:

YouTube - Baptist pastor beaten + tazed by Border patrol - 11 stitches