[olePigeon]

I've been doing some research on the "correct" pronunciation of the word Celtic. I had read in a book once on the Celts that said it was pronounced Seltic, with a soft c, as transliterated from Greek into Latin (Κελτοί became Celtoi.) Quite a few Greek words starting with Κε became Ce, and thus were pronounced as the soft c (center, cedar, etc.)

I don't know anything about ancient Greek. Some people say the Greeks pronounced it Keltic, and so we should. But some people say that the greek K could be either K or S, so if you take a cue from the Romans, it should be Seltic. The Germans pronounce it with a K, but the French pronounce it with an S; with the French pronunciation being adopted into English. Some argue that the German version is more accurate since it skips the Latin translation.

It wasn't until relatively recently did the Keltic pronunciation become mainstream, it's even used in American academics. Ironically, Charles Elster, the foremost American expert on orthoepy, says it should be pronounced Seltic.

Anyone else have an opinion?

[imitchellg5]

Jeremy Clarkson says "Keltic" and he knows everything.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Jeremy Clarkson says "Keltic" and he knows everything.

Yeah, but that could just be out of spite for having to pay a Scotsman to change his oil. He also said that France is just a country you drive through to get to Italy.

[tonton]

How about calling them what they called themselves? Who cares what the Greeks, Germans or French say. It's what the Celts themselves say that's important.

And AFAIK all the research into that says they would have said Celts (Kelts).

(Seltics) are the basketball team.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by tonton 

And AFAIK all the research into that says they would have said Celts (Kelts).

I'd be interested in knowing what research you're referring to. From what I've read, there were several different dialects of Gaelic. As far back as 500 years ago it was pronounced Selts, but there is no real formal pronunciation or written indication older than what the Greeks called them, which is a coin toss.

Originally Posted by tonton 

(Seltics) are the basketball team.

They're also a Scottish Football Club, founded by an Irish Marist brother.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by tonton 

Who cares what the Greeks, Germans or French say. It's what the ENGLISH themselves say that's important.

There ya go.

[Ω]

Seltics are a basketball or football team.
Keltic is a beer.

Keltic FTW

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I'd be interested in knowing what research you're referring to. From what I've read, there were several different dialects of Gaelic. As far back as 500 years ago it was pronounced Selts, but there is no real formal pronunciation or written indication older than what the Greeks called them, which is a coin toss.

There are still several different dialects of Gaelic (i.e., the languages comprising the Goidelic branch of the Celtic languages). However, none of the Celtic languages—Goidelic, Brythonic, Mainland Celtic, or even Celtiberian—have undergone the degree of palatalisation of the velars that the Romance languages have. In all modern Celtic languages (Irish, Scottish, Manx, Welsh, Breton, and Cornish), the word for the Celts has an initial velar: na Ceiltigh, na Ceiltich, ny Celtiee, y Celtiaid, and ar Gelted, respectively for all except Cornish, where I don’t actually know what the form is. C (and G) is pronounced as a true velar (albeit often palatalised) in all the Celtic languages.

However, the name ‘Celtic’ is ultimately an exonym, so there’s no such thing as “calling them what they called themselves”. Κέλται or Κελτοί are probably based on the endonym of some ancient Celtic tribe (who would definitely have pronounced it with a velar), but no one actually knows who they are, nor what the exact name was. It’s very likely to be the same word as the Galatai and the Gauls, but it’s a word that’s mostly been lost in the Celtic languages themselves, reappearing hundreds of years later by being borrowed from Latin or Greek. All the words for ‘Celtic’ listed above have been borrowed into the modern Celtic languages from Latin or Greek.

Like most population groups spread over the vast territories the historic Celts were spread over, they had no universal name for themselves. They had names for their own peoples, their own tribes; but not one for all Celtic people. Therefore, going by how they would have pronounced it themselves is not an option.


On the other hand, since both the Romans (in Classical Latin times) and definitely the Greeks would have pronounced the names with a velar initial, and since all Celtic languages continue to have velar reflexes of original velars (unlike the Romance languages that have turned them into sibilants or alveolar affricates), I’ve always felt most comfortable retaining the original velar in place—except of course when talking about the football or basketball teams.

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I don't know anything about ancient Greek. Some people say the Greeks pronounced it Keltic, and so we should. But some people say that the greek K could be either K or S, so if you take a cue from the Romans, it should be Seltic.

Just to clarify here: Greek kappa is always velar. It’s never an s. Similarly, c was consistently pronounced as a velar k in the period of Latin when these words were originally written down. The extreme palatalisation of the velars that turned k into s (and g into z or ʒ) before front vowels didn’t happen till several hundred years later.

[mattyb]

**** me Oisín, thats a bit heavy for a Wednesday morning !!!

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

**** me Oisín

Sorry, you’re not my type. Better?

thats a bit heavy for a Wednesday morning !!!

That’s what you get for getting me started on Celtic languages.

[Spheric Harlot]

I feel less stupid for the day.

Thanks, Oisín.

[Big Mac]

Oisin pwns linguistics.

[Paco500]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

I feel less stupid for the day.

Thanks, Oisín.

Wow. His post had the exact opposite effect on me.

[voodoo]

Nice Oísin

The way I have grown accustomed of saying celtic is indeed keltic - unless I'm talking about the Boston seltics. I never talk about the sottish football team, so yea.

Celtic is with a k-sound.

[Doofy]

I've never, ever heard anyone call themselves a "selt". And I'll take the word of a bunch of Celts and Oisín over Charles Elster any day of the week.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Paco500 

Wow. His post had the exact opposite effect on me.

Glad to see that someone owned up to that before me.

[Spheric Harlot]

Apologies - I have some rudimentary linguistics courses under my belt and rather enjoy etymology.

[SpaceMonkey]

Or Selleck?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Oisin pwns linguistics.

Oisín: now tell us how to pronounce "pwns" please

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Oisín: now tell us how to pronounce "pwns" please

[pʷʰn̩z], obviously.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Oisín: now tell us how to pronounce "pwns" please

Originally Posted by Oisín 

[pʷʰn̩z], obviously.

Well DUH!

Of course I will admit that I looked up "velar" just to be sure I had understood the discussion. I think I should know more about sound descriptions, considering that I work with speech therapists all the time...and sometimes I refer patients to them. Maybe being able to say something besides "he talks funny" would be useful...Just maybe.