[RobOnTheCape]

I've just been given an opportunity to become a dealer of a particular product, and one of the many requirements is a web page. Since it is a large overall investment I'm looking to outsource to India for the design and perhaps maintenance of my site, however, when doing a search I get so many I don't know where to start. Has anyone any recommendations of firms over there they have used? The site among other things will have to be able to have embedded videos.

Thanks

[nonhuman]

My suggestion: don't.

Consider a quality website part of your investment.

[andi*pandi]

Why india? Plenty of web designers in your neck of the woods.

[RobOnTheCape]

I just went to someone who quoted me an outrageous price, and I think I can beat that elsewhere.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape 

I just went to someone who quoted me an outrageous price, and I think I can beat that elsewhere.

I suggest telling us what you are looking for so that we can tell you what a reasonable price might be.

A lot of designers quote outrageous prices when a project is not terribly well defined or conceived.

[RobOnTheCape]

Three replies, but no suggestions other than "don't do it", "why", and maybe I didn't define my needs well enough". I think from the title I was fairly clear that I was looking for suggestions of companies which to outsource a job I need done. I sent someone nearby links to websites I wanted to be similar to, and the fee was quite high, and I found out that is the rate I should expect to pay.

In regards to "don't do it". Is there some "magic" way that designers do things here in the states that one or two people out of 1+ billion can't comprehend, or improve on for a fraction of the price? I may have struck a nerve here(maybe not), but this is no different than buying a foreign car, imported beer or grapes from Chile. I want a decent job done and I think I can get it done for much less abroad.

Thanks .

[Lint Police]

Best I can do.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape 

Three replies, but no suggestions other than "don't do it", "why", and maybe I didn't define my needs well enough". I think from the title I was fairly clear that I was looking for suggestions of companies which to outsource a job I need done. I sent someone nearby links to websites I wanted to be similar to, and the fee was quite high, and I found out that is the rate I should expect to pay.

In regards to "don't do it". Is there some "magic" way that designers do things here in the states that one or two people out of 1+ billion can't comprehend, or improve on for a fraction of the price? I may have struck a nerve here(maybe not), but this is no different than buying a foreign car, imported beer or grapes from Chile. I want a decent job done and I think I can get it done for much less abroad.

Thanks .

There is no reason why somebody in a different country would not have the technical chops, although I would also suggest considering the possible communication challenges of working across different cultures and languages.

Also, I did not say that your project was not well defined, what I said was intended in a very general sense. Sorry, I don't have any India web design suggestions other than it might be smart to think about inquiring whether the group you decide to work with pairs up programmers with graphic designers. I've seen well coded but ugly sites with usability problems, and gorgeous sites that were coded by what appeared to be a bunch of monkeys. I'd suggest checking out their design portfolio not only to assess their design chops, but take into account usability/user friendliness, as well as the quality of the code if you have the ability to do so.

[RobOnTheCape]

Great points - thanks!

[besson3c]

Also, if you foresee building a workflow around your website that will incorporate a lot of Linux centric technologies, I would think about having your site done by a guy who will use a Unix friendly programming language such as PHP or Ruby on Rails. If you want to use a particular web app or CMS (e.g. WordPress, Expression Engine, Joomla, whatever), find out what language it is written in and where it runs best. The sorts of problems and difficulties that might be unique to a platform are probably obscure and may not affect you in the slightest, but if you are mostly ambivalent or want to play it safe it might be best to keep everything centered around the platform that is best suited for your business.

[torsoboy]

I have outsourced close to 30 projects to companies in other countries. From websites, to iPhone apps, to information verification, to press release writing, I have outsourced it.

I suggest going to somewhere like vWorker.com, Elance or Guru.com and putting up your project details and letting people bid on your job. You will get a large assortment of bidders from all over the world with prices ranging from very cheap, to fairly expensive. You can communicate with the ones you want to, view their portfolios, and view previous job history on the sites. Once you have it narrowed down to who you want, you select them, escrow the project cost, and then let them start working.

Of the three, I prefer vWorker.com.

If you are just looking for a website design or a logo or some other creative work, give Logo Design, Web Design, Design Contests | 99designs.com a try. On that site you put up your details, and it creates a contest where people compete with one another by doing the *complete work* before you select one of them as the winner. I have had some good results from there as well.

There's no reason not to do it this way. Communication is not generally an issue since most other countries teach their students English in all levels of schooling.

[Macfreak7]

For the most part getting stuff done in India results in a "monkey see monkey do" kinda product which typically doesn't float my boat.
However, there are certain designers I've met that have studied in the US and have moved back to India and are definitely a cut above the rest. Also, it might be easier to communicate with them cause they're more "net savvy" than the usual lot AND the cultural gap is fairly minimal due to their exposure as students (which i know can be way different than "real" everyday life, but anyhoo).

Check these guys out, couple of them I am acquainted with but not sure if they will do stuff for ya or what.
mCube
http://sixofusdesign.com
Creativeland Asia
chlorophyll: Specialists in Brand Building, Consulting, Architecture & Strategy Planning

Hope that helps!

[nonhuman]

I didn't mean to imply that Indian web designers are inherently worse than American web designers. Far from it!

However having been on both sides of the web contractor's role, I can say that availability and communication are essential aspects of any contractor/client relationship. Especially when dealing with the visual aspects of the site it's extremely helpful to actually be physically present when working with your designer. It's very easy for misinterpretations to creep in when talking about your design, and if you're both in the same room it's a lot easier to put together some preliminary sketches and wireframes right there to ensure you're on the same page.

There are also cultural considerations. The appeal of a design is highly context dependent, and your design should reflect your target market more than anything else. Will a designer in India have a sufficiently deep understanding of the market you're trying to enter?

Also, regarding price, many people often think that the quotes for web work are exorbitant. Typically (again, having been on both sides of this), I think this is due to a lack of understanding of how much time and effort is actually involved in building a good website. Yes, you could find someone who will do it for cheaper, but it's almost guaranteed that they will also do an inferior job. The prices are what they are because that is what the work is worth (usually, there are obviously going to be exceptions). If your prices are too low you just get flooded with tons of bullshit work, with high prices you can afford to take on fewer projects and can therefore put more attention and care into your work.

[andi*pandi]

I would be curious as to what is "too expensive" and which agencies you requested quotes from. I bet there are plenty of freelance/self-employed local designers who could deliver for you, unless you're expecting to get a whole website up for under $100.

[freudling]

This is what I can say.

Website design is terribly undervalued. Think about this. On any project, your job should be to mitigate risk as much as possible. The way I look at it, every time you outsource your risk goes up because typically you've never met the people in person, and they know nothing about your company.

Working remotely has benefits, but that's the major challenge: not knowing one another. Then, you fling people into a live project with deadlines and, it's not surprising with there's scope creep, missed deadlines and missed specs.

That's outsourcing. Outsourcing outside your country... you can pile on the risk even more. Communication problems. Time zone problems. Cultural and political differences.

I'm not saying not to do it, but in my experience, as well as others who are well-known in web programming, design, and app programming, outsourcing to india has been more or less a disaster.

Sure, the odd time you'll get some decent work, but it's few and far between. Lots of missed deadlines, poor work.

I just did a quick web search for india graphic design... came up with some sites, seeing stuff like "2 business day turn-over time".

Ya, right. You think you can have a designer design a brand, a logo, a website, etc. in this short period? Sorry, but if you want a real, professional job, it'll take months. The going rate for a real branding firm is $80,000 and 3 months. Yes, it sounds like a lot. But these agencies take TIME to understand you, who you are, what you are doing. You get a website, stationary... you get an excellent, long lasting brand that you can feel confident with.

I'm not trying to push you any one way, I just know from experience that it's playing with fire.

And by the way, the websites these guys are putting up here... they're interesting, and I've studied them in the past. But the designs are wanting in many cases. Go check out the designs over at 99 Designs. You're not getting unique creative. You're getting templated stuff and it's hard to tell the difference between 100 different logos.

No, the 'designers' there don't spend time to create something for you... you might as well just go to ThemeForest and look for a Website template yourself.

[besson3c]

Extremely thorough descriptions are very, very helpful if you are going to post to vWorker and the like. Talented developers may not want to bother bidding when the terms are vague, especially when there are people from other countries who are willing to work cheaply, but I'd argue that no matter what the winning bid is, clarity is vital!

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

If you are just looking for a website design or a logo or some other creative work, give Logo Design, Web Design, Design Contests | 99designs.com a try. On that site you put up your details, and it creates a contest where people compete with one another by doing the *complete work* before you select one of them as the winner. I have had some good results from there as well.

Does this strike anyone but me as a completely atrocious concept for developers? Create an entire web site, spend loads of your time on it, and maybe you’ll get paid, if you’re lucky enough to be the winner? Seems like a concept that favours the outsourcer completely, and screws over a lot of designers.

Or am I missing part of how it works?

[Spheric Harlot]

My thoughts exactly.

I also love that the customer gets access to all the completed material (not a pitch or a concept) without ever signing a contract with the individual developers.

Who works for these things? High school kids with a cracked copy of Photoshop?

[freudling]

Do any of you read previous posts?

The 'designers' don't design anything for you. It's just templated stuff that's thrown your way. Paint by numbers and boom.

There is no real unique creative work. It's impossible. You'll put up a project, and in a day or two, you'll get all these applications like even complete websites. Obviously there is no real design happening. Step 1: write company name in logo and website header. Step 2. Submit. Step 3, collect if chosen. Winner? The website offering the service, not really the 'fake' developers.

[Oisín]

Even if it’s just a question of adapting a template, delivering in a complete web site with no way of knowing whether you’ll get anything in return is not very good terms for the developer.

Is there anything stopping the client from simply saying none of it is what they wanted, getting their money back, and then using one of the designs anyway? Like, do they just get static screenshots, rather than the actual project, before money is handed over?

[besson3c]

None of these companies including Freelancer and vWorker seem particularly friendly to US workers for the reasons stated above, and more.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

Even if it’s just a question of adapting a template, delivering in a complete web site with no way of knowing whether you’ll get anything in return is not very good terms for the developer.

Is there anything stopping the client from simply saying none of it is what they wanted, getting their money back, and then using one of the designs anyway? Like, do they just get static screenshots, rather than the actual project, before money is handed over?

Ya, screenshots. You ever been to template monster? Well, that's basically the same thing, cept you get your company name infused into the Website and stationary. No other difference that I could tell after researching these solutions some months past.

We all just laughed after a while. We looked at grids of hundreds of logos and they were all incredibly similar. Couldn't really tell much of a difference at all between them.

The creative they give you are screenshots.

But seriously, do we even need to discuss this. It obviously doesn't add up. Paying someone $100 or $300 to come up with a complete brand for you, website, stationary... That costs tens of thousands of dollars to get real designers and programmers to do it. Even over there we're talking weeks and months of real labour. The fact that they turn over within 24-48 business hours should be enough of a sign of what this is all about.

Now, if you don't mind copy machined templated stuff then by all means, dive in...

To the OP, if web design and programming are only worth peanuts to you, you're going to get, most of the time, peanuts back.

Here is one ad on freelancer from a mobile app developer in California:

"Our client is looking for a kick ass App that updates with their latest products. It needs an commerce back end, and must run on iOS and Android.

Max Cost: $5000

Terms: you must send us a video of the App in action, upon which time we will send you the payment for the work in escrow. Once the software is in escrow FTP, the funds will be released."

I mean, as a potential client of these guys, wow, would you feel good about this kind of work? I don't think so. Risk, risk, risk. I know one App developer who did the App for one of the biggest newspapers in North America outsourcing like this. They charged $60,000 to the client, but outsourced cheap like this. Of course, after the 3 month deadline, they handed over the App and it was a trainwreck. The code wasn't even worth fixing. The newspaper just redid it and spent about $120,000 for the new App. The other developer didn't really get paid, neither should they have. Their stuff was garbage. Garbage in, garbage out my man.

[mvip]

It's pretty simple. You get what you pay for.

While, as others have pointed out, there are certainly talented people in all corners of the world. There are also a lot of crappy designers and coders in the the US and Europe too. The problem is that most of these 'indian outsourcing firms' are competing by cranking out as much crap as possible, while a western firm usually spend more time thinking about how to the various esthetic elements of the design and cater to the clients need.

Yet, you can't expect to get a 'good' website designed from scratch for $500. That's just impossible. You'll get a modified template at most.

The other problem is that most non-developers or designers do not understand how much work it goes into designing and coding a website. Just for a rather simple site, you're probably looking at 20-40 hours at the very least (if we're talking about very, very very simple site). Do the math yourself. 30 hours for $500? That's about $16/h.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by mvip 

It's pretty simple. You get what you pay for.

While, as others have pointed out, there are certainly talented people in all corners of the world. There are also a lot of crappy designers and coders in the the US and Europe too. The problem is that most of these 'indian outsourcing firms' are competing by cranking out as much crap as possible, while a western firm usually spend more time thinking about how to the various esthetic elements of the design and cater to the clients need.

Yet, you can't expect to get a 'good' website designed from scratch for $500. That's just impossible. You'll get a modified template at most.

The other problem is that most non-developers or designers do not understand how much work it goes into designing and coding a website. Just for a rather simple site, you're probably looking at 20-40 hours at the very least (if we're talking about very, very very simple site). Do the math yourself. 30 hours for $500? That's about $16/h.

Couldn't agree more.

We spent standard studio rates and it cost us $12,000 for a Website. Amazing website. But it's basic, no CMS. It also came with a brand, although we played a big part in it.

Ya, you think this is expensive. Design/Programming studios are about $1000-$1500 per day. Those good to the best around.

And believe me, these people are not rich.

Sure, we could have spent $37 on a WordPress theme, or gone with someone for $1000, but both of these would not get us anything unique. And it would be pedestrian overall.

Everyone who we talk to that has visited our site loves it. In this day and age, the Web has become so important, more than ever. You don't have much of a chance to make an impression on a consumer... a site is one of your only chances. So it's one of the most important things a business will need to do.

My advice then is, if there is a budget, get the best possible designers and programmers on it. If your budget is abysmally low, then you're going to be stuck with a templated solution that looks, feels, and functions, for the most part, like every other Website out there.

By the way, whether you like it or not, sites like Engadget and Rolling Stone, just to design, were about $20,000-$30,000. That's a low ball figure too because I know the people who did them and they charged them a top rate, which is higher than what I would get.

It was then another ~$20,000 to program, not including customized content management systems. Obviously, the programming there is a bit more involved because it's a publication hooked into a CMS.

1. Meet with the client, discuss needs, get to know the brand/company;
2. Brainstorm ideas back at the studio with team;
3. Come up with overall philosophy and plan;
4. Discuss more with client about ideas, philosophy, plan, etc.;
5. UNDERSTAND the client's needs today, and for tomorrow;
6. Create SEVERAL creative layouts and spreads/concepts;
7. Submit these to the client;
8. Change, correct, alter creative. Repeat step 7 and 8 until satisfied;
9. Export creative for Web for multiple devices (different resolutions, versions, etc.);
10. Hard program in HTML/5, Javascript, etc. creative by hand, creating the 'true' website, reusing as much 'golden' core code as possible;
11. Test, test, and test. Use multiple devices... mobile, desktop, etc.;
12. Submit to client for testing purposes;
13. Change things as both parties see fit;
14. Be willing to throw everything out and start again; and
15. Bill the client once work is approved.

This is the creative process. It's expensive because it's bloody hard work, takes a boat load of talent, and a lot of time. This represents a minimum of 1 month of work, minimum. Realistically 2 months. Branding, if needed, is another month or 3.

So there you go...