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Mac Elite
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Jan 18, 2011, 06:41 PM
 
This...

2008 Honda Civic at Brenengen Chevrolet in West Salem, Wisconsin - (800) 944-5705 ext. 2

I posted my 2002 Jeep Liberty (Limited, 4x4, Moonroof, 57k) on Craigslist and put a price of $9k on it. Both the KBB and NADA are closer to $8000-$8500. I'm not in a position that I NEED to sell it (it still runs perfectly and the 4x4 works REALLY well in the WI winters), but I've had it for 3 years now, its a 2002 so it isn't getting any younger by any means, and I'm really tired of getting 16-18 MPG. So I put the price I wanted on it, and sure enough I have a buyer. So I am going to sell the Jeep and use the proceeds of the sale to put towards the 2008 Civic and I'm going to finance the rest (I work at a local credit union and I'm going to get a great rate on the deal).

I would say that 80% of my driving is in town, back and fourth to work and the gym, 5-10 mile trips, 25-40 MPH, lots of stop and go with stop lights. The other 20% is highway driving, 55-75 MPH, cruise control most of the time.

Pros: The Civic is 6 years newer, has leather and navigation, only has 13k miles so I'll either be able to drive it for 10+ years or I'll be able to drive it for 4-5 years and still sell it for $10-$12k, and I'll be getting almost double the gas mileage. Also, though the Jeep only has 57k miles, it is a 2002 and I have this eeking suspicion that something is going to go wrong with it sooner than later (I've gone 3 years now with NO problems whatsoever...I feel like the odds are starting to stack up against me).

Cons: I will have to finance part of the purchase, there is nothing "wrong" with my Jeep so I don't really have a NEED to get rid of it, I'm not sure of the Civic's ability to handle in the winter.

I'm curious to hear others thoughts on this.
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Baninated
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Jan 18, 2011, 07:16 PM
 
Have you considered a hybrid? Lots of stop-and-go means you'll be getting a lot of regenerative braking and rarely fill up the gas tank.

This Civic has a 6 cylinder vertically aligned engine. That's a big engine for you doing no hauling or towing.

I strongly urge you to look at something like the Subaru Legacy Outback or Forester. It has a 4 cylinder engine and will be a lot better for you in the winter months. AWD vs FWD is so much nicer in the snow.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 07:35 PM
 
Basically everything about this post is wrong. Let's break it down.

Originally Posted by bstone View Post
Have you considered a hybrid? Lots of stop-and-go means you'll be getting a lot of regenerative braking and rarely fill up the gas tank.
And how many miles will he have to drive that hybrid to make up the difference in purchase and maintenance cost between a Prius and a comparably-sized small, efficient normal car? And how about the environment effects of the manufacture and disposal of the large batteries?

This Civic has a 6 cylinder vertically aligned engine. That's a big engine for you doing no hauling or towing.
No. Just...no. No Civic has ever come with a V6. WTF does "vertically aligned" mean? Do you think that's what the "V" in "V6" stands for?

I strongly urge you to look at something like the Subaru Legacy Outback or Forester.
First you suggest a hybrid, then you suggest a vehicle with notoriously poor gas mileage (sub-20s in town)? Get your story straight.

It has a 4 cylinder engine and will be a lot better for you in the winter months. AWD vs FWD is so much nicer in the snow.
Tires make more of a difference in the snow than drive configuration. AWD doesn't help you stop any faster in poor conditions, and the difference in emergency handling is marginal over FWD, and is much much more reliant on available traction than drive configuration.

But please, remind us all that you worked at an auto repair place for a couple of months so that we'll all just blindly take your word as gospel.

sdilley:

Looks like a great car. Congrats on getting your Jeep sold, the Civic should be a nice upgrade.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 07:36 PM
 
Laminar, you're hilarious. I used to work as a car mechanic and you're saying I don't know what I am talking about? LOL.

Next think I know you'll tell me that the EJ22 and EJ25s aren't boxer engines. LOL.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 07:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Looks like a great car. Congrats on getting your Jeep sold, the Civic should be a nice upgrade.
I Laugh at your post! I Laugh at it Out Loud!
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 07:40 PM
 
Think about the Honda Civic Hybrid instead. Too bad it's not AWD cause being in Wisco you get some bad winters (I'm from NE IL, so I feel your pain).
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 07:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
Laminar, you're hilarious. I used to work as a car mechanic and you're saying I don't know what I am talking about? LOL.
You would misinterpret the simplest part of my post.

Next think I know you'll tell me that the EJ22 and EJ25s aren't boxer engines. LOL.
Really? You're going to rattle off some engine designations and pretend that's a substitute for actual knowledge?

Remember that time you thought that the Civic came with a V6? That was hilarious.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 07:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Remember that time you thought that the Civic came with a V6? That was hilarious.
Yawn...

Yes, it is optional. Don't do that.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 08:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
Yes, it is optional. Don't do that.
Perhaps you've heard of a typographical error. It happens. The Honda Civic has never, ever shipped from the factory with a V6.

You realise almost all auto adverts on the internet are created with macros, right?
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 08:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Perhaps you've heard of a typographical error. It happens. The Honda Civic has never, ever shipped from the factory with a V6.
It's easy enough to drop in another motor that will turn the trans and make the wheels turn. V6, V8, H4. Take your pick.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 08:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
It's easy enough to drop in another motor that will turn the trans and make the wheels turn. V6, V8, H4. Take your pick.
Wow, really? So you think you can just drop a random V6 into a Civic, assuming there is that much room under the hood (there isn't) and everything will just work dandy? I wouldn't even take my car to you for an oil change, every filter is probably the same, right?

Proof that it hasn't had an engine swap: the tachometer works.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 08:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Wow, really? So you think you can just drop a random V6 into a Civic, assuming there is that much room under the hood (there isn't) and everything will just work dandy? I wouldn't even take my car to you for an oil change, every filter is probably the same, right?

Proof that it hasn't had an engine swap: the tachometer works.
As long as it'll bolt up to the transmission you can put anything in there. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 08:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
As long as it'll bolt up to the transmission you can put anything in there. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
Uh, right. And make your own engine mounts, flash the ECU so you can even get the car to start and go into gear or replace the ECU, etc. The list goes on and on.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 08:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Uh, right. And make your own engine mounts, flash the ECU so you can even get the car to start and go into gear or replace the ECU, etc. The list goes on and on.
Welding new engine mounts is a pretty standard thing to do in rust-bucket states. There is always a workaround for the ECU, or you just replace the harness. It can be done and has been done. I've helped out a few frankenstein projects.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 08:39 PM
 
I know engine swaps are possible and I've done them, but it's pretty obvious from a simple Google search and common sense that the 8G Civic can't take a V6. And considering that the 8G Civic is one of the best selling cars in the United States, there is absolutely no reason to drop a V6 in one when it's much easier to put a B16 or similar motor in there, and if not the OEM replacement.

NIce backpedaling though.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 08:40 PM
 
My goal is to take one of the Civics and completely remove the engine and trans and completely replace them with custom built parts.
     
Posting Junkie
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Jan 18, 2011, 08:41 PM
 
Buy an E30 instead.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 09:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
Laminar, you're hilarious. I used to work as a car mechanic and you're saying I don't know what I am talking about? LOL.
Actually, *YOU* were saying enough to create that impression.
Laminar was not even needed to help you dig that hole.

-t
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 09:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Actually, *YOU* were saying enough to create that impression.
Laminar was not even needed to help you dig that hole.

-t
Hilarious!
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 09:38 PM
 
Why do car threads on the 'NN forums always suck so hard. I used to think it was all Rob's fault...
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 09:59 PM
 
It's Rob's curse, to lift it we must: on a moonlit night sacrifice a dodge neon to the gods.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 10:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by AKcrab View Post
Why do car threads on the 'NN forums always suck so hard. I used to think it was all Rob's fault...
20 posts about getting a new car, and not one picture yet. Here, you can get better mileage if you buy this one. And girls are guaranteed to notice you.



note: it can go 112 MPH (180 KPH).
( Last edited by reader50; Jan 19, 2011 at 03:17 AM. )
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 10:46 PM
 
I too used to be a mechanic, and still follow the car industry somewhat. To attempt to convince people that it's just a matter of fabricating a few parts, and dropping a much larger engine in a car totally not designed to accept such an engine, is a poor way to attempt to save face. Can it be done? Probably, or maybe even likely so. Is it something you're going to find at a used car lot, with an otherwise stock body, etc? Extraordinarily unlikely.

And the others here who have posted that the Civic never shipped with a 6 (let alone a "vertically aligned" one, whatever that is), are right.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 11:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
It's Rob's curse, to lift it we must: on a moonlit night sacrifice a dodge neon to the gods.
It has to be a 5 speed or else your [sic] stupid.

Anyway, to the OP, that's a nice Civic and very well equipped, I'd say go for it.
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 11:04 PM
 
The only hybrid worth owning.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 11:08 PM
 
Yes, do want, in Gulf livery.

Also, the Mercedes S400 Hybrid is actually the only hybrid that will pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time; it's actually cheaper than the standard US spec S-Class.
     
Posting Junkie
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Jan 18, 2011, 11:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I Laugh at your post! I Laugh at it Out Loud!
It was my weak attempt at putting a positive spin on my post and making it appear (barely) on topic. Whether or not it was sincere is completely up for debate.
But seriously...what ISN'T an upgrade from a Jeep Liberty?
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
Yes, it is optional.
You honestly believe that spending a couple months mopping floors at a garage gives you some sort of special knowledge, don't you? It's so sad.

Don't do that.
Don't do what? Post factual information when presented with bullshit?

Originally Posted by bstone View Post
My goal is to take one of the Civics and completely remove the engine and trans and completely replace them with custom built parts.
Way to aim for the stars.

Remember that time you thought the Civic had a V6, then went on and on trying to defend it?
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 11:58 PM
 
Haha, ok, the Civic DOES NOT have a V6. That much I am certain of. It is not at all uncommon for dealership websites to have typographical errors. There is NO WAY this car has a V6...period!

As far as getting the Hybrid...I have considered it, but they just don't come with the options I want. Particularly the moonroof and alloy wheels. Some Accord Hybrids come with these options, but they are considerably more expensive. Plus I am a bit concerned about how well a Hybrid would start up and operate under the frigid WI winter conditions.

This Civic is relatively new, has pretty much just been broken in with 13k miles, has ALL the options I want (and then some...the heated leather is an added bonus), its the exact color I was looking for, and I feel it will run stronger than a hybrid in the extreme weather elements.

So back on topic...good choice for price/quality? Good idea to sell the Jeep now while it still has relatively low mileage and is in good operational condition?

On a related note...I would like to get remote start installed at some point (it'd be reeeeeally nice to just point out the window and start the car in the mornings). Has anyone had any experience or recommendations on such a system?
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Posting Junkie
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Jan 19, 2011, 12:11 AM
 
Just keep in mind that driving the car is the best way to warm it up when it's cold, and letting it idle is the worst - it's a waste of gas and accelerates engine wear.

I say look for a remote start system with aux output capabilities so that when you start your car it will trigger your rear defroster and seat heater. That way though the car won't be up to temperature when you hop in, the window will be on its way to being clear and your seat will keep you warm until the car's heater can catch up.
     
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Jan 19, 2011, 12:14 AM
 
Honda and Toyota hybrids start up as any normal car when you have the heat on and it won't turn off until the car is warm. The Accord hybrid isn't really around for gas mileage, it's a regular V6 Accord with extra go power.

I think it's a pretty good choice and price. One thing is for certain, the longer you hold onto that Jeep, the more value it'll lose.

In terms of remote start, you could always go the OEM route with Honda's dealer installed option. It should run you around $450 but it's the most elegant solution.
     
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Jan 19, 2011, 12:25 AM
 
Any idea how much it might cost to buy an average aftermarket remote start system and get it installed at a local shop? If it's only a $50-$100 difference, I'll probably go with the factory option.
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Jan 19, 2011, 12:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Just keep in mind that driving the car is the best way to warm it up when it's cold, and letting it idle is the worst - it's a waste of gas and accelerates engine wear.

I say look for a remote start system with aux output capabilities so that when you start your car it will trigger your rear defroster and seat heater. That way though the car won't be up to temperature when you hop in, the window will be on its way to being clear and your seat will keep you warm until the car's heater can catch up.
Very good point, I'll definitely keep that in mind!
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Jan 19, 2011, 01:16 AM
 
I'm sorry, I don't know enough about cars to comment.
     
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Jan 19, 2011, 06:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Yes, do want, in Gulf livery.

Also, the Mercedes S400 Hybrid is actually the only hybrid that will pay for itself in a reasonable amount of time; it's actually cheaper than the standard US spec S-Class.
I also like the new CLS 63 AMG Hybrid.

Yes is hybrid because it burns petrol and rubber.
     
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Jan 19, 2011, 07:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Yes, do want, in Gulf livery.


     
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Jan 19, 2011, 08:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I'm sorry, I don't know enough about cars to comment.
What's the problem ? That's the pre-requisit for a strong opinion in car threads at 'NN

-t
     
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Jan 19, 2011, 09:05 AM
 
Tip o' the hat to bstone and Laminar.
     
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Jan 19, 2011, 09:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Just keep in mind that driving the car is the best way to warm it up when it's cold, and letting it idle is the worst - it's a waste of gas and accelerates engine wear.

I say look for a remote start system with aux output capabilities so that when you start your car it will trigger your rear defroster and seat heater. That way though the car won't be up to temperature when you hop in, the window will be on its way to being clear and your seat will keep you warm until the car's heater can catch up.
Idling a cold does nothing more than waste gas. It has no effect on engine wear. Modern engines are built to very exacting tolerances, and as long as oil is circulating, which it will be anytime the car is running, you're fine.

It's kind of a paradox to tell someone that they shouldn't idle their engine because it wastes gas and accelerates engine wear, and then suggest a remote starter.
     
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Jan 19, 2011, 09:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
It's kind of a paradox to tell someone that they shouldn't idle their engine because it wastes gas and accelerates engine wear, and then suggest a remote starter.
I think it's giving personal advice while answering their questions. Leave out the second part and all you have is a polite cash.
     
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Jan 19, 2011, 09:54 AM
 
So letting a car idle has no effect on how quickly it will warm up? I realize that driving down the road is what will really warm it up, but if I were to let it idle for 5-10 minutes then start driving, would it not get warmer a bit quicker than just jumping in, starting it up, and instantly driving? I guess if anything I just don't feel comfortable starting a car and driving right away when its 5 degrees outside.
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Jan 19, 2011, 10:36 AM
 
If you remote start your car 5-10 minutes before you leave, it will warm up much faster when you actually get in. More so if you can trigger the seat warmer/defroster as mentioned.

End of story. If you don't mind wasting the extra 8-minutes-of-idling gas on cold mornings, then have at it.

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Jan 19, 2011, 10:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
If you remote start your car 5-10 minutes before you leave, it will warm up much faster when you actually get in. More so if you can trigger the seat warmer/defroster as mentioned.
Emphasis mine. Modern cars manage engine heat very effectively, and it really, really doesn't matter if you drive right out onto the street or sit on the driveway-within about 5-10 minutes the engine-and heater-will be warmed up. You can choose to use the fuel you burn to get to where you're going, or to simply make you a bit toastier a bit earlier.

It's also rather important to note what kind of temperatures you're dealing with. If it's "under 40ºF" that's getting you chilled, or if it's "under -10ºC" are very different situations. The length of your drive is also a big factor. If it's really cold (well below freezing) and you have a longer drive, start the car and take your time checking your seatbelt, mirrors, radio station, etc. before driving off. If it's below 40ºF and/or you have a short drive, just go.

Oh, and modern diesels don't need extended warm up times, either. A little more than a gasoline car, perhaps, but not the 20 minutes 80s vintage diesels needed.

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Jan 19, 2011, 11:07 AM
 
When it's cold enough, I can't even get my car in gear unless I let it idle for a while. But then, my car ain't one of yer modern ve-hick-les.
     
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Jan 19, 2011, 11:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Emphasis mine. Modern cars manage engine heat very effectively, and it really, really doesn't matter if you drive right out onto the street or sit on the driveway-within about 5-10 minutes the engine-and heater-will be warmed up. You can choose to use the fuel you burn to get to where you're going, or to simply make you a bit toastier a bit earlier.
Not quite sure if you're agreeing with me or not. I'm saying that if you remote start and let your car idle for 5-10 minutes before getting in, you will get good heat as soon as you jump in. Whereas if you just jump in cold and start, you will get a blast of cold air for a couple minutes until things start warming up.

"Cold" in Canada is, generally speaking, cold enough.
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Jan 19, 2011, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Whereas if you just jump in cold and start, you will get a blast of cold air for a couple minutes until things start warming up.
This is why I don't actually turn the heat on until the temperature gauge moves a noticeable amount.

I don't understand people who blast cold air into the passenger compartment. Doesn't that make you feel colder?
     
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Jan 19, 2011, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
When it's cold enough, I can't even get my car in gear unless I let it idle for a while. But then, my car ain't one of yer modern ve-hick-les.
It can be tough to get the horses going on cold winter mornings.

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Jan 19, 2011, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Tip o' the hat to bstone and Laminar.
Noted, brilliant.

Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
Idling a cold does nothing more than waste gas. It has no effect on engine wear. Modern engines are built to very exacting tolerances, and as long as oil is circulating, which it will be anytime the car is running, you're fine.
An engine with with 10,000 hours on it has more wear than an engine with 9,000 hours on it. Starting the car and letting it idle for 15 minutes before driving twice a day adds up to almost 1000 hours of extra runtime over 5 years of owning the car.

It's kind of a paradox to tell someone that they shouldn't idle their engine because it wastes gas and accelerates engine wear, and then suggest a remote starter.
If you'd read my post, you'd see why it makes sense. Start the car from inside as you're putting your coat on and give it about a minute or two to get the seat heater up to temp, that way when you jump in your ass is toasty.

Originally Posted by sdilley14 View Post
So letting a car idle has no effect on how quickly it will warm up? I realize that driving down the road is what will really warm it up, but if I were to let it idle for 5-10 minutes then start driving, would it not get warmer a bit quicker than just jumping in, starting it up, and instantly driving?
It would, but you just wasted gas letting the car idle for 10 minutes.

I guess if anything I just don't feel comfortable starting a car and driving right away when its 5 degrees outside.
As an example, it was -3 degress F this morning. My car sat outside all night, so it was very cold. I started it up and drove right off, and in about 3 minutes, the temp gauge had moved up and the heater kicked on (automatic climate control keeps the heater off until the engine's warm enough that it will make a difference).

I could have started the car and let it idle for 10 minutes, then driven off and it would have been warm after 1 minute of driving, but I'd rather I suffer through 2 extra minutes of cold than the car burn gas for 10 minutes.

Of course, I recognize that these are my priorities, and they may not reflect the priorities of others. I'd bet with the technology put into today's vehicles, the engine wear is far more dependent on other factors (maintenance, for example) and if you'd prefer to drive a preheated car and are willing to sacrifice the gas, by all means go ahead.
     
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Jan 19, 2011, 12:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This is why I don't actually turn the heat on until the temperature gauge moves a noticeable amount.

I don't understand people who blast cold air into the passenger compartment. Doesn't that make you feel colder?
I scoff at your manual climate control, and bask in my fake plastic wood interior with auto climate control, designed specifically for old people.

But seriously, Ford replaced three simple knobs with 12 identical buttons far out of my line-of-sight, and I have 11 different fan speeds to choose from, all of which are absolutely necessary to my survival.
     
Mac Elite
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Jan 19, 2011, 12:02 PM
 
my girlfriend does that with her car, her excuse "it warms up faster" I try and explain how it all works but she is stubborn with her explanation... I have a scangauge II hooked up in my civic and I can watch the temp rise from ambient (intake temp and water temp sensors) I am a firm believer in letting the car warm up for a short time before you drive off (2-3mins if its cold) Metal expands as it heats and some metals are not nearly as strong when they are cold. also oil does not lubricate as well when its cold.

Honda Civics are AWESOME, I bought one while being in a similar situation as you. I bought a 02 EX and it has been almost flawless till recently, but it is at 108k miles now. I did the timing belt replacement myself ($200 in honda parts) and now I need to replace some bushings in the front end (compliance bushings) and I have had a speaker fail, the cloth panel on the rear drivers door is peeling off, and my airbag system failed due to a sloppy drivers side seat buckle (which was replaced yesterday at the dealer for no cost (lifetime warranty on all the seatbelts)

wow, that sounds like a lot of problems. I have ZERO complaints about the car, things wear out and thats pretty much the only problems I am seeing especially with over 100k miles on it.

I would buy another civic in a heartbeat if I had the money.

Oh, my EX has the 15" wheel package, which SUCKS in the snow. I put some 14" wheels and a set of snow tires on it and it's a TANK. My theory is the wider 15" wheels liked to float on the snow, the narrower 14" wheels do much better.

I change the wheels back and fourth depending on weather (I have air tools and jacks, takes me about 15mins)

-Zach
     
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Jan 19, 2011, 12:06 PM
 
Question: Do V6 Civics warm up faster?
     
 
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