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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Toronto's $9 billion Transit City scrapped. Money to go to 20 km Eglinton subway.

Toronto's $9 billion Transit City scrapped. Money to go to 20 km Eglinton subway.
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Eug
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Mar 30, 2011, 11:48 PM
 
Previous thread of now dead Transit City LRT plan: http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...light=eglinton

They're scrapping pretty much all those LRT routes and pushing it all into one LRT route, but tunnelled underground (or elevated in one section) effectively making it a 20 km subway.

Many in the city may be annoyed, but for me this is good, because I live in the area (sort of) to be served by the new subway.

Construction to start this year, completion in 2020.



Losers in the new transit plan: Finch bus riders - thestar.com
( Last edited by Eug; Mar 31, 2011 at 12:00 AM. )
     
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Mar 31, 2011, 12:09 AM
 
Why is the stop at Laird? Wouldn't the connecting routes at Don Mills make more sense?
     
Eug  (op)
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Mar 31, 2011, 12:36 AM
 
Not sure. Maybe it's just because in the original Transit City, Leslie was where the LRT went underground, and Laird is the next big intersection nearby. In the new subway plan, it's now all underground (except at the far east where it's all elevated).



BTW, Finch no longer gets LRT, but personally I would rather see BRT there instead so we selfish Scarberians can get our subway. As for building out the Sheppard subway with private money, that seems like a load of crap but we will see. I'm just glad our mayor saw the light and decided to de-emphasize Sheppard even though he campaigned so hard for it.
     
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Mar 31, 2011, 04:03 AM
 
I always thought Toronto had a larger subway system.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
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Mar 31, 2011, 08:08 AM
 
Toronto's subway and highway systems are woefully inadequate. The traffic here is just ridiculous.

But the Eglington line is the most important of the planned expansion, so it's good they kept that at least.
     
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Mar 31, 2011, 09:49 AM
 
As you can tell, I am quite pleased with the new plan. My main concern before was Mayor Rob Ford's prior heavy campaigning for extension of the Sheppard line, at the expense of all else. That never made any sense to me, because that line really was of secondary concern for the city. When asked about the Eglinton line he said wasn't against it, but didn't support it either because of the fact that the Transit City version of it didn't have it as a complete subway.

This represents a significant shift for him, since the Eglinton line (which is FAR more important to the city overall) is now the #1 priority with all the funding already in place, and then his statement that they'll fund Sheppard with public/private partnerships.

I suspect they will fail to raise enough money to do Sheppard in any timely fashion, as $4.2 billion is a LOT of money for a city to raise on its own even with private support, but personally I don't care because Sheppard shouldn't have been a primary concern in the first place IMHO.

Now they just need to get those shovels in the ground asap. I suspect that the Leslie/Laird to Black Creek/Jane segment will be done in the first phase, since the environmental assessment for that has already been completed (and in fact they already bought the tunnel boring equipment for it). After that they'll do the section east of Leslie, because that will likely need to go through a new environmental assessment (since the original plan was to have that above ground).

Here was the old plan. Note the smaller central tunnelled portion.



The new plan basically doubles the length of the tunnelled portion, and then makes it contiguous with the route of the Scarborough Rapid Transit (which was a separate line before). The original tunnelled portion was 11 km. Now it's 20 km. Add the elevated SRT which is now the same line and it's close to 30 km. A completely grade-separated 30 km line is definitely impressive, and it may even get longer in the future if they decide to extend to the airport, as was in the original plan.

They'll probably have to reduce the stop sizing distances, but that's fine too. The good news is that the speeds will likely go up to 30 km/hr average (as opposed to say 23 km/hr) with no snow delays or surface traffic accidents, etc.
( Last edited by Eug; Mar 31, 2011 at 10:02 AM. )
     
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Mar 31, 2011, 12:07 PM
 
New official map:



Press release

Public Transit Investment Will Create Over 100,000 Jobs

Premier Dalton McGuinty and Mayor Rob Ford have reached a deal on a revised transit plan that will create jobs and help keep the city moving.

Ontario, through Metrolinx, will be responsible for building the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown Light Rail Transit (LRT) which will be a single LRT line running about 25 kilometres from Black Creek Drive to Scarborough City Centre. The line will be largely underground from Black Creek to Kennedy, then partially elevated from Kennedy to the Scarborough City Centre.

Under the new plan, Toronto would extend the Sheppard Subway to Downsview station in the west and Scarborough City Centre in the east, incorporating the project into the TTC subway system. Toronto would also introduce and operate an enhanced bus service between the new Finch West subway station and Humber College.

Improving public transit will create jobs, help commuters get to work and home quicker and support future growth.
     
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Mar 31, 2011, 01:10 PM
 
I can't speak for Toronto because I just don't know the city well enough but it sounds like its the same debate that was had for the Canada Line in Vancouver. Richmond had designed everything around LRT a decade ago and the route to Vancouver from Richmond and the Airport was perfect for LRT at a fraction of the cost to a Subway but the Airport wanted to shave 9 minutes off the trip so instead of a 600 Million dollar line, they went with a 1 Billion dollar line which ended up being almost 2 Billion when all said and done because the rich areas had to have it underground.

The 2 billion could have provided for LRT service from Surrey to Langley, from Coquitlam to Maple Ridge and Richmond to Vancouver which would have had a much bigger impact on this region for Traffic and transit.

I know your happy because it goods for you being close to it, but is it really the best option for the City as a whole?
Like I said I dont know Toronto very well so I'll have to trust your opinion.
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Mar 31, 2011, 01:44 PM
 
Better for the Eglinton corridor? Yes. There is a lot of space on the east side of the Eglinton corridor in terms of lanes, but it's already quite congested. More importantly it's quite a long corridor, and this would speed up travel times considerably and would completely avoid the various issues with surface transportation routes.

For the whole city? Maybe not, but it depends on how you look at it.

1) Malvern. The original plan was to have the Scarborough end of the line extended north east by LRT into Malvern. This new plan kills that (for now). That sucks for them most definitely.

2) Finch. The original plan was to have an LRT for them. Personally I thought that was a waste. Much faster express buses or BRT are sufficient for them, and will be for a very long time.

3) Sheppard. A long time ago Sheppard was to be built as subway... which didn't really make sense because of the ridership. A few stops got built... and then the money was taken away and it stopped. So the most recent plan before this one was to extend it with LRT, which made more sense in terms of money vs. ridership, but didn't make sense because there was already a short subway there. The new plan revives the subway extension there, but doesn't have any real money to do it for that line. However, since it shouldn't have been subway in the first place, I'm not saddened by that lack of money.

So, out of the above, the only real concern I have is with Malvern. The good news is that they could prioritize Malvern at a later date, should more money show up, and it wouldn't be extremely expensive to do. They could build LRTs from Malvern that feed into the Eglinton line at the Scarborough Town Centre hub..

BTW, for the Eglinton line, the central Toronto portion (ie. the western portion of the line) had to be tunneled anyway, and the eastern Scarborough RT portion had to be converted anyway too, because it was based on an old technology which is now defunct and it was at the end of its useful life.



The new tunneled portion is from Laird to Kennedy. The two flanking regions on the left and right were going to be grade separated all along. Tunneled to the west and raised above grade to the east.

BTW, I don't actually live that close to any of the above lines. I just think the Eglinton line is one that should be prioritized the most, and that the Eglinton corridor desperately needs good transit.

Also, AFAIK, this "new" plan kinda mirrors what the province - aka Metrolinx - wanted in the first place. The bazillion LRT lines were not their idea. It was the previous Mayor David Miller's idea with the Toronto Transit Commission. ie. Compromise the hell out of everything to give everything a little bit of something. Metrolinx wanted more heavy duty stuff going to few areas initially, and this is what the new plan does.

---

For the LRT vs subway service in the GVA, how much would the LRT have impacted surface routes? One thing about certain parts of the GVA is the traffic is even worse than Toronto.
( Last edited by Eug; Mar 31, 2011 at 01:59 PM. )
     
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Apr 5, 2011, 01:33 PM
 
The location that got the Canada Line was perfect for LRT. The grade was level, the right of way in place, the fact Richmond already built up 3 Road with it in mind. It was mostly already a rail track that used to be owned by CPR. They ended up going with a Metro system instead. In Coquitlam/Port Moody where Translink wanted to put LRT in for the evergreen line made no sense at all. Would have been terrible on traffic. Big hills, crowded streets, loss of street parking for businesses. Real bad idea. Government basically told Translink they had to go with Skytrain for Coquitlam/Port Moody so the LRT plan for that area is gone. Further out extensions from Surrey to Langley, Coquitlam Center to Maple Ridge and from Vancouver to Ladner(Delta) all make sense as LRT.

Skytrain for Vancouver, Burnaby, New Westminster, Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam and Port Moody. LRT for Surrey, Langley, Maple Ridge, Pitt Meadows, Delta, Richmond. That is what would make sense. And I rather see them start on LRT for the before mentioned places first because it will have a bigger impact on regional transportation issues. But considering the new 10 lane No 1 freeway alone is taking up 3 Billion dollars, and another 2 Billion being spent on the rest of the gateway project, I highly doubt they will do anything for LRT or more skytrain for a while.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
   
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