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John Paul 2
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May 1, 2011, 07:55 AM
 
Is anyone listening to the canonization?
Is this process more or less important than a royal wedding?
     
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May 1, 2011, 08:11 AM
 
As soon as I stopped paying attention to what the pope does, my blood pressure went down
     
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May 1, 2011, 08:53 AM
 
I pay attention to what the Pope does, and I still can't be bothered to look at it live. But I imagine there are probably more Catholics in the world than there are people who recognize the head of the British Monarchy as their head of state, so the beatification (not a canonization yet) should be more important by the numbers.
     
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May 1, 2011, 12:10 PM
 
awesome publicity. awesome business model. awesome political institution. just awesome.

but i think this is less awesome than the royal wedding as a world event.
     
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May 1, 2011, 01:02 PM
 
Religion = meh.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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May 1, 2011, 01:50 PM
 
Even those with a disdain for religion have to acknowledge that Blessed John Paul the Great played a significant role in the downfall of the Iron Curtain. The Soviets feared him enough they ordered the attempt to assassinate him.

The Process of Beatification and Canonization
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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May 1, 2011, 02:30 PM
 
As far as I can tell, Karol Wojtyła was the first pope that was also a "real person," not bookish and "considered excessively devout" (not to mention some other things that could be said about the current incumbent), not stained by complicity before and during the Holocaust as Paul VI had been. And not fraught with health and management issues as John Paul I had been, either; he only became frail late in life, unlike his predecessor.

It is undoubtable and overwhelmingly clear that John Paul II was a major factor in the end of Communist domination of Eastern Europe, which could be considered a miracle in itself. He modernized the Church at a time when it had been almost actively driving young people away, and brought it back to international and political relevance. I look at his canonization as sort of like entry into a Hall of Fame (not being Catholic myself), and a recognition that the Church as an institution, Catholics in general, and Catholicism overall benefitted enormously by his lengthy stewardship of that institution.

Some people are pointing out the numerous revelations of late that, under John Paul II there were huge numbers of young boys abused by priests, and blaming him for "lack of leadership.". Bull. Today we are more open to discussing this sort of abuse, but that does not mean that it did not happen before. It certainly happened under prior popes, but it was hushed, buried, or ignored. I believe John Paul II brought the Church into the modern world sufficiently for these abuses to be brought to light and dealt with, and perhaps begin to build a new level of trust with the faithful that may allow Catholics everywhere to revere their priests, but not accept even the hint that they are abusing their offices in any way.

So the canonization is a Good Thing to me. I like ceremony for the theater of it, but I'm not watching or even following it in this case. I only watched the wedding highlights to see what others were talking about, but it also was a ceremony that was great theater-just not the genre I'm interested in.

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May 1, 2011, 02:59 PM
 
I'm not sure doing things to benefit the church (catholic or otherwise) benefits humanity as a whole though.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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May 1, 2011, 03:41 PM
 
I think the Polish will have extremely strong feelings about this. Understandably.

And since it was, in fact, largely Wojtyla's influence that got the democratic movement in Poland the momentum it needed, which in turn contributed to the collapse of the Eastern block, it's certainly understandable that he have some sort of honor bestowed upon him.

Since this is how the Church does it, and it doesn't really matter either way to me, I'm all for it.
     
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May 1, 2011, 06:50 PM
 
JP v.2 certainly did a lot to make me dislike catholothism a whole lot less. That said I don't know that this whole beautiful thing is.
     
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May 1, 2011, 09:37 PM
 
Beatification: from beatitude, latin for blessing.
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May 1, 2011, 09:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'm not sure doing things to benefit the church (catholic or otherwise) benefits humanity as a whole though.
From the viewpoint of someone outside the church, that's a point. But within the Church, it is undisputed that "good for the Church" is "good for mankind."

I personally think that the modernization and transparency John Paul II brought about are good for everyone; the Roman Catholic Church is huge and extremely influential, so having it more open and more in tune with modern life, and more responsive to both challenges and criticism makes the Church a better neighbor.

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May 1, 2011, 11:53 PM
 
He was a good man, that can't be said about most Popes. Compared to that putz Ratzinger, he is a saint.
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May 2, 2011, 12:16 AM
 
This fast-tracking of JP2 is a slap in the face to abuse victims. He completely turned a blind eye to them for his entire papacy.
     
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May 2, 2011, 12:20 AM
 
JPII as we call him. BXVI is even cooler.

I don't think there's been a better Pope than Benedict XVI
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
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May 2, 2011, 12:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
JPII as we call him. BXVI is even cooler.

I don't think there's been a better Pope than Benedict XVI
Unless you're gay, Jewish, or otherwise non-Roman Catholic. Apart from that, he's a peach.
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May 2, 2011, 12:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Unless you're gay, Jewish, or otherwise non-Roman Catholic. Apart from that, he's a peach.
How so?
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May 2, 2011, 01:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
How so?
I'm not getting into it, read his Wikipedia article. It touches on some of it.
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May 2, 2011, 01:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Unless you're gay, Jewish, or otherwise non-Roman Catholic. Apart from that, he's a peach.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
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May 2, 2011, 10:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
This fast-tracking of JP2 is a slap in the face to abuse victims. He completely turned a blind eye to them for his entire papacy.
Only if you buy that senior priests shared their dirty laundry with their bishops, who shared theirs with their cardinals, who in turn reported this to the pope. That's not way any buracracy I've ever seen works. From everything I've been able to glean, these dirty little secrets tended to stay at the parish level-and a number of bishops got pretty steamed when they found out that their priests had been concealing such events. Every new lawsuit brings more evidence that, when senior priests knew one of their priests was abusing kids, they took pains to NOT inform anyone, and they often shipped them off to other jurisdictions without a word about disciplinary actions, let alone about abuse allegations.

I do not think that, based on everything else he did, John Paul II had a clue about the extent of the problem, let alone whether priest X or priest Y was abusing kids.

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May 2, 2011, 10:16 PM
 
There is evidence that Ratzinger knew what was going on and tried to cover it up. So the list of dirty laundry makes it pretty darn far even if they manage to keep it from the pope.
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May 2, 2011, 11:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Only if you buy that senior priests shared their dirty laundry with their bishops, who shared theirs with their cardinals, who in turn reported this to the pope. That's not way any buracracy I've ever seen works. From everything I've been able to glean, these dirty little secrets tended to stay at the parish level-and a number of bishops got pretty steamed when they found out that their priests had been concealing such events. Every new lawsuit brings more evidence that, when senior priests knew one of their priests was abusing kids, they took pains to NOT inform anyone, and they often shipped them off to other jurisdictions without a word about disciplinary actions, let alone about abuse allegations.

I do not think that, based on everything else he did, John Paul II had a clue about the extent of the problem, let alone whether priest X or priest Y was abusing kids.
Like this
USA Swimming Coaches Molested, Secretly Taped Dozens of Teen Swimmers - ABC News

This went on for over 20 years, with coaches moving from state to state. It doesn't make what any rouge priest did right, just that it's not exclusive to
clerics. We also know of the double standard that goes on with teachers molesting their students. If they're hot blondes, they get a slap on the wrist.
Teacher student sex scandals. Updated Daily
165 so far this year. (with an average of more than 400 a year)
Your Courts, Their Secrets | School district ignored warnings, then silenced girls fondled by teacher | Seattle Times Newspaper
( Last edited by Chongo; May 2, 2011 at 11:39 PM. )
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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May 3, 2011, 03:32 AM
 
Is beatification where they make the pope all pretty?

Honestly, I like John Paul 2 better than the current pope.
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May 3, 2011, 05:08 AM
 
No quote from BadKosh yet? I'm disappointed.
     
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May 3, 2011, 09:06 AM
 
As popes go, I think John Paul was a pretty good guy.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
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May 3, 2011, 12:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
No quote from BadKosh yet? I'm disappointed.
I'll help: libdems murdered the pope with Kenyan agents and the new pope is a coverup by 0bama.
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May 3, 2011, 05:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
As popes go, I think John Paul was a pretty good guy.
Certainly better than what they've got now. Still, I find it hard to believe that no knowledge of the abuses made it to the top.
     
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May 3, 2011, 07:03 PM
 
Papa Ratzi is certainly a prince among swine.

We were rather glad to see him leave for Rome.
     
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May 3, 2011, 09:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Papa Ratzi is certainly a prince among swine.

We were rather glad to see him leave for Rome.
Now the only question is, where can we send you?
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
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May 3, 2011, 11:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Certainly better than what they've got now. Still, I find it hard to believe that no knowledge of the abuses made it to the top.
It doesn't "get to the top" the same way a police chief doesn't that their beat cops are shaking down drug dealers, getting sexual favors to make traffic tickets go away, let alone trafficking in kiddie porn. The same can be said for the Commandant of the Marine Corps. marine arrest for porn - Google Search
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
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May 4, 2011, 01:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Now the only question is, where can we send you?
Do you have some sort of problem?
     
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May 4, 2011, 04:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Do you have some sort of problem?
Since when is it a problem to want to send people that one doesn't know anything about somewhere far away? Isn't that what you were just indicating? Or perhaps you know the Pope personally, in which case I take it back. If not, I don't know what your problem is.
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May 4, 2011, 04:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Since when is it a problem to want to send people that one doesn't know anything about somewhere far away? Isn't that what you were just indicating? Or perhaps you know the Pope personally, in which case I take it back. If not, I don't know what your problem is.
The pope's behaviour, and opinions, are well documented and in the public domain. So, yes, we do know pretty much most there is to know about him, which allows people like Spheric to express an opinion.

Clear?
     
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May 4, 2011, 04:46 PM
 
He may be a complete unknown to you [voodoo], but Ratzinger had quite the history in this country,

One daily newspaper titled "Oh My God" when he was designated Pope.





Edit: beaten to it by Phileas.
     
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May 4, 2011, 04:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
It doesn't "get to the top" the same way a police chief doesn't that their beat cops are shaking down drug dealers, getting sexual favors to make traffic tickets go away, let alone trafficking in kiddie porn. The same can be said for the Commandant of the Marine Corps. marine arrest for porn - Google Search
Not if it has been going on for thirty years, increasingly well documented.
     
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May 4, 2011, 04:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
The pope's behaviour, and opinions, are well documented and in the public domain. So, yes, we do know pretty much most there is to know about him, which allows people like Spheric to express an opinion.

Clear?
And how does any of that address my question? Much the same the behavior and opinions of person X on a public forum are well documented and in the public domain. Thus we know pretty much most there is to know about him, which allows one to express an opinion.

Clear?

I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
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May 4, 2011, 05:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Since when is it a problem to want to send people that one doesn't know anything about somewhere far away?
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Much the same the behavior and opinions of person X on a public forum are well documented and in the public domain. Thus we know pretty much most there is to know about him, which allows one to express an opinion.
It's not often you get to see someone take two opposite stances two posts apart.
     
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May 4, 2011, 05:21 PM
 




- no wait, that's not really funny. Posting contradictory claims in hopes of getting somebody, anybody, riled up is trolling.
     
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May 4, 2011, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
It doesn't "get to the top" the same way a police chief doesn't that their beat cops are shaking down drug dealers, getting sexual favors to make traffic tickets go away, let alone trafficking in kiddie porn. The same can be said for the Commandant of the Marine Corps. marine arrest for porn - Google Search
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Not if it has been going on for thirty years, increasingly well documented.
As I mentioned before, this also went on for decades, with coaches moving from state to state. Has anyone investigated USA Gymnastic coaches?
USA Swimming Coaches Molested, Secretly Taped Dozens of Teen Swimmers - ABC News
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May 4, 2011, 05:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's not often you get to see someone take two opposite stances two posts apart.
Same position babe.
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
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May 4, 2011, 05:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Same position babe.
Under the bridge?
     
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May 4, 2011, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's not often you get to see someone take two opposite stances two posts apart.
I know. That was quite amazing. I don't think I've ever seen that happen before.
     
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May 4, 2011, 06:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Under the bridge?
I thought I was setting up an unmissable "that's what she said".
I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
   
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