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ajprice · Jul 23, 2011, 03:36 AM

BBC News - Norway police: 'Eighty killed' in island shooting

Really nasty stuff, there was a car bomb yesterday afternoon, after that people at a camp island for teenagers were shot by a man dressed as a policeman. Over 80 people killed.

News is still coming out from this, very shocking and sad.

Spheric Harlot · Jul 23, 2011, 03:58 AM

Apparently, it was a white Christian Nazi.

Terrible.

P · Jul 23, 2011, 05:22 AM

This is absolutely terrible, and absurd. I'm currently about an hour from the Norwegian border, and we're watching Norwegian TV to try to follow what is happening, but it's still fairly confusing.

The car bomb explosion was massive. It seems to be a single nutjob who started a company to grow vegetables two years ago so he could buy massive quantities of fertilizer without it being suspicious. He then proceeded to load up a van with a bomb made from this fertilizer, Oklahoma City-style, and presumably used some sort of remote timer to go off while he went out to the island with the camp.

The camp was organized by the youth organization of the norwegian Social Democrats, the party currently in power. He arrived dressed up as a policeman and started shooting people. Current numbers are 7 killed in the bomb and 84 shot on the island.

I'm not sure Nazi is an accurate description, though. He is a "critic of Islam" and basically an extreme right-wing racist (and completely insane, before anyone makes politics of this), and his attack on the island was directly aimed at the big leftist party in Norway. I haven't seen anything about him parading around in swastikas or anything, though.

Spheric Harlot · Jul 23, 2011, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by P

He is a "critic of Islam" and basically an extreme right-wing racist (and completely insane, before anyone makes politics of this), and his attack on the island was directly aimed at the big leftist party in Norway. I haven't seen anything about him parading around in swastikas or anything, though.

He wouldn't need to. "Extreme right-wing racist" is the relevant term.

Although over here, even the racist Nazis tend to sympathize with Arabs, at least, as long as they're fervently anti-Israel.

Batshit insanity makes strange bedfellows.

Face Ache · Jul 23, 2011, 06:27 AM

Here are the shooters comments from an interweb forum

So not a Nazi. Just another Right Wing McNutjob.

lpkmckenna · Jul 23, 2011, 07:38 AM

I was following this story last night, when only 7 or so were reported killed. To wake up and see 91 people were killed by one guy is incredibly heartbreaking. To see that he targeted people of a single political party and their kids is just to awful to imagine.

To see one guy kill so many with a gun suggests real proficiency. I wouldn't be surprised to find out he have a military background. I mean, how could one guy carry enough ammo to kill so many? But he did apparently spend 2 years prepping for this event, so he might have just spent a lot of time at the range doing the correct kind of practice.

Spending 2 years preparing for a massacre seems to cast doubt on this guy being crazy. At the same time, I always try to keep in mind that extreme political fanaticism is usually a psychiatric symptom, not a direct cause of behaviour. I said that about the Fort Hood shooter at the time, and it seems no less true here. Crazy people develop crazy beliefs and then do crazy acts. People should avoid the beliefs -> violence conclusion when it's really the "crazy" part that's the cause, not the "belief" part.

I'm so happy to see they have the guy in custody. I hope they can round up any conspirators.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was an anti-Islamic angle to his views. He likely targeted the left party in Norway because he thought they were too accommodating for his liking. We do hear that refrain pretty much every day.

P · Jul 23, 2011, 01:44 PM

The shooter's named is Anders Behring Breivik. He had some military background- he did his military service in the Norwegian army. It is quite common for right-wing nutjobs to try to get a permanent position in the army, but the army is quite good at finding these and weeding them out. He was also a member of a local shooting club.

Earlier in the day, a former Norwegian PM (Gro Harlem Brundtlandt, later at the UN IIRC) was scheduled to speak at the camp. Breivik apparently hated Brundtlandt with a passion, which may be the reason that he targeted that camp. Breivik was also a member of a large populist right-wing party (Fremskrittspartiet) - and at one point chairperson of a local chapter in part of Oslo - but seems to have left or possibly was just excluded for not paying membership fees. He had not been active for several years, in any case.

I was following this story last night, when only 7 or so were reported killed. To wake up and see 91 people were killed by one guy is incredibly heartbreaking.

++. This was the shocker for me. Awful.

Waragainstsleep · Jul 23, 2011, 03:56 PM

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna

To see one guy kill so many with a gun suggests real proficiency. I wouldn't be surprised to find out he have a military background. I mean, how could one guy carry enough ammo to kill so many? But he did apparently spend 2 years prepping for this event, so he might have just spent a lot of time at the range doing the correct kind of practice.

To me this highlights a lack of competency (with firearms) in previous perpetrators of these sorts of massacres and genuine sociopathy in this particular perpetrator.
It genuinely amazes me that death tolls haven't gotten near this level before now.

chabig · Jul 23, 2011, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep

To me this highlights a lack of competency (with firearms) in previous perpetrators of these sorts of massacres

And of course the victims were unarmed.

Spheric Harlot · Jul 24, 2011, 05:26 AM

True. Kids over here tend to be unarmed.

Horrifying acts like these included, that does still average out to a fairly low rate of gun-related deaths per 100,000, so it's working quite well for them.

Railroader · Jul 24, 2011, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Horrifying acts like these included, that does still average out to a fairly low rate of gun-related deaths per 100,000, so it's working quite well for them.

Well, there might be other factors contributing to that fairly low gun-related deaths thing. Perhaps one of the lowest people living at or below poverty rates in the world? Maybe? I mean, poverty does tend to bring out the gun deaths, don't cha think?

Waragainstsleep · Jul 24, 2011, 09:29 PM

I can't speak for anyone else but I meant that I was surprised this high a death toll doesn't happen more often when people go on shooting sprees.

Athens · Jul 24, 2011, 10:04 PM

god help us if any one ever decides to use a full size tractor trailer as a bomb. If a car load of the stuff does this much damage I cant imagine a cargo container worth.

This is one of the few times that armed citizens would have made a difference in how many people got killed. But of course even if the law permitted concealed weapons since it was a camp chances are it would have been a gun free zone regardless.

Railroader · Jul 24, 2011, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

But of course even if the law permitted concealed weapons since it was a camp chances are it would have been a gun free zone regardless.

I think you'd be very surprised to find out just who is carrying and the large numbers who do.

Spheric Harlot · Jul 25, 2011, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by Railroader

Well, there might be other factors contributing to that fairly low gun-related deaths thing. Perhaps one of the lowest people living at or below poverty rates in the world? Maybe? I mean, poverty does tend to bring out the gun deaths, don't cha think?

No, I don't.

Athens · Jul 25, 2011, 01:49 AM

I think Railroader might be on to something but when you factor in places like China its not just about living in poverty. In well off countries like the US poverty probably makes a big difference. Being tough on crime sure the hell does not work. Look at the US, has 5% of the world population and has 25% of the world wide prison population. Compare that to China which has over a Billion people and only 1.5 Million people in prison and lower crime rates.

Waragainstsleep · Jul 25, 2011, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Athens

I think Railroader might be on to something but when you factor in places like China its not just about living in poverty. In well off countries like the US poverty probably makes a big difference. Being tough on crime sure the hell does not work. Look at the US, has 5% of the world population and has 25% of the world wide prison population. Compare that to China which has over a Billion people and only 1.5 Million people in prison and lower crime rates.

I think there are reasons for this the west would not want to emulate in this day and age.

brassplayersrock² · Jul 25, 2011, 04:50 PM

Bamboo under the nails isn't acceptable in the U.S? Aww man.

Shaddim · Jul 25, 2011, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Athens

god help us if any one ever decides to use a full size tractor trailer as a bomb. If a car load of the stuff does this much damage I cant imagine a cargo container worth.

This is one of the few times that armed citizens would have made a difference in how many people got killed. But of course even if the law permitted concealed weapons since it was a camp chances are it would have been a gun free zone regardless.

I still carry in "gun free" zones, just not in government buildings where there are lots of police who can take care of things. This is part of the reason why. If I see some idiot starting to go on a killing spree at a mall or other public place, and if they don't make me one of the first targets, they're dead. That s**t wouldn't happen around here, too many people with HCPs. It would be like that attempted robbery at that Apple store last year.