[Athens]

When listening to music how much of the song is something you can relate to personally. I mean what songs define your personality or aspects of your life. Im starting this thread out with the posting of 2 which I can relate to. First one is honesty which is one of the most important qualities I seek out of any one and the second one is about working together, helping others and hope, something that resonates deep inside. I got a bunch more to add to the list later.

Fefe Dobson - Stuttering
Fefe Dobson - Stuttering - YouTube

Nickelback - When We Stand Together
Nickelback "When We Stand Together" Lyric Video - YouTube

[mattyb]

How does the music we listen to relate to who we are?

It doesn't.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

How does the music we listen to relate to who we are?

It doesn't.

So there are no songs you can relate to?

[Waragainstsleep]

I don't really listen to what musicians say in their songs except to evaluate how their words fit the music and how considered they seem to be. Sometimes I'll hear a line I like the meaning of or generally agree with but I don't take the meanings of songs too seriously.

I don't mind an artist telling a story with their music but the points people make with their songs tend to all be rather cliched these days.

[SpaceMonkey]

Divinyls - I Touch Myself - YouTube

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Athens 

So there are no songs you can relate to?

Not what I said in response to what you asked. Of course there are songs that I can relate to. But there are no songs that I listen to, or have ever listened to, that relate to who I am.

[imitchellg5]

One of my favorite bands is Coldplay, but not in the same sense as nearly everyone else who likes Coldplay. I enjoy the storytelling within the songs, as well as the literary devices employed by the band. And as a fan of 19th century literature, there's a lot to enjoy with Coldplay too (did you know The Scientist is the story of The Birthmark by Nathaniel Hawthorne?). I would say then that there is certainly a relationship between the music I enjoy and what I identify with as an individual, though I don't know if it forms the core of who I am.

[besson3c]

What about instrumental music?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by mattyb 

Not what I said in response to what you asked. Of course there are songs that I can relate to. But there are no songs that I listen to, or have ever listened to, that relate to who I am.

No, "who I am" is proper.

[Shaddim]

Not really about this, but thought I'd share since this just happened to me.

So I was talking with someone interesting today, someone close to Don Henley, as in a close relative, and they told me that Hotel California is indeed, for the most part, about Anton LaVey's funky Satanist group on California. Apparently a lot of buzz was going around at the time about LaVey, that culture and lifestyle, including the celebs he'd attracted, and Henley wrote the song about the excess and rumors surrounding it all. I know that he's denied it in the past, maybe he just didn't want to get into it. Pretty neat. No, I don't care what the evangelicals think, it's a great song and the subject matter just makes it more mysterious and unusual.

[besson3c]

The music I listen to reflects my personality.

My problem with pop music and most contemporary music isn't that I dislike it to its core, it's that it bores me. I have a limited attention span. I also have musical training which has led me to be better acquainted with more complex harmony and busier melodies and stuff than your average Joe. I don't mean this to sound elitest, but I'm just being honest.

However, that doesn't mean that I always have an appetite for the complex. In fact, I often don't, and I also dislike when any kind of music is complex for the sake of being complex, so perhaps I'm a discontent elitist. However, the music I listen to has to be somewhere in between brain dead and late Coltrane to me. That provides for a wide range of music though.

As a person I'm the same way. I'm a horrible small talker, I don't get along with vapid people, I'm a non-conformist type of personality, and I like to think about stuff. Most people like me even without any musical training are generally not into sheeple-type music. I've generally been left unsatisfied more often than not with, say, the music that is featured on SNL that I usually find myself exploring some genres more than others, just as jazz obviously, but also motown/soul/R&B, classical, world, classic rock, etc. I'm a wildly creative type person, so that is a big part of the jazz appeal because I would say that jazz is the ultimate creative music, sometimes to its own detriment.

So, yeah, the music I listen to and connect with reflects who I am quite strongly.

[Doofy]

11

[Athens]

I've always loved Iron Maiden though I can honestly say I don't care very much for that version of The Trooper lol

[freudling]

I think music maps onto people's emotional states... that most people would agree with that. That we listen to different kinds of music that suits our moods. Club music when you're partying... ambient when you're trying to relax... etc.

[ghporter]

I'd agree with that to a point, but I'd also suggest that we listen to particular types of music to influence our moods. I do that frequently, using a particular type of music to help me relax, a different type for workouts, etc. I don't think it is ever either "I listen to this only because of how I'm feeling" or "I listen to that to help me feel this way." I think for most people it's a combination of the two, shifting from one of that spectrum to the other as circumstances and the environment change.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I love how the first two songs in this thread are by Nickelback and Fefe Dobson - two of the top mediocre artists and stark examples of the failure of the modern music industry, to ever come out of Canada.

In my humble opinion, of course.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

I love how the first two songs in this thread are by Nickelback and Fefe Dobson - two of the top mediocre artists and stark examples of the failure of the modern music industry, to ever come out of Canada.

In my humble opinion, of course.

Shockingly, Liking Nickelback Will Not Get You Laid

[Waragainstsleep]

Amusing, but I don't know why the author expresses surprise at the idea of hating Oasis. Hating Oasis is an entirely sensible and tasteful position to adopt.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Amusing, but I don't know why the author expresses surprise at the idea of hating Oasis. Hating Oasis is an entirely sensible and tasteful position to adopt.

I think the surprise was over "still" expending energy hating Oasis, because I assume that Oasis hasn't been popularly relevant for a while. Sort of like expending energy hating on Green Day for "selling out" when they released Dookie.

[mattyb]

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep 

Amusing, but I don't know why the author expresses surprise at the idea of hating Oasis. Hating Oasis is an entirely sensible and tasteful position to adopt.

I hate both the Gallagher brothers but their music was/is excellent.

[subego]

Is it okay that I stopped reading as soon as I saw "Nickleback"?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

I love how the first two songs in this thread are by Nickelback and Fefe Dobson - two of the top mediocre artists and stark examples of the failure of the modern music industry, to ever come out of Canada.

In my humble opinion, of course.

Fefe Dobson is Canadian?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

My post certainly seemed to indicate that was the case, yes.

[Athens]

I assumed she was American because she was black.

Another one to add

Our Lady Peace, "Middle of Yesterday" - YouTube

I can relate to this one often.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Athens 

I assumed she was American because she was black.

lolwut

[Athens]

what do you mean wut... I assumed she was American because she is black. That's the only song I know from her and never really looked her up.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

lolwut

I don't even.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I just got bored and clicked on the Fefe Dobson link.

Speaking of "I don't even"...I don't...even...I mean...

Honest question: Are you 16 years old? If so: that would explain things. If not: I don't even.

[Athens]

Adding one more, this is a really nice tune to listen too.

Adagio in D Minor on guitar - YouTube

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Athens 

what do you mean wut... I assumed she was American because she is black.

Why?

[besson3c]

I've had this song stuck in my head for days (start at the 3 minute mark for the melody):

Chick Corea Elektric Band - SPAIN (Live) - YouTube

This band was pretty kick ass... Dave Weckl on the drums (who in addition to jazz guys played with Madonna, Paul Simon, Robert Plant from Led Zeppelin, etc.), John Patitucci on Bass (Bon Jovi, Sting, Queen Latifa, John Williams, etc.), and Chick Corea.

[mattyb]

Only one problem : jazz is shite.

[Spheric Harlot]

OH, no, not at all.

Especially nowadays, when the limits have been stretched so far that jazz encompasses everything from Vince Guaraldi, Grant Green, Herbie Hancock, through Me'Shell NdegéOcello, the James Taylor Quartet, to the electronic stuff of Medeski Martin & Wood, and JazzMatazz' hip-hop crossover stuff, across to the avant-garde noise experiments of John Zorn…

Saying "jazz is shite" is almost like saying "tv is shite"—it might be true as a general trend from your perspective, but all it really means is that you haven't heard enough to have found the appealing stuff.

In this case, it's simple:

Dave Weckl is tremendously annoying.
Soulless, calculated virtuosity.

Chick Corea is much the same, and always has been, but his premeditation has occasionally resulted in some astounding and touching work (though I admit, the only album I regularly return to is "Friends").

[mattyb]

Beat you.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Saying "jazz is shite" is almost like saying "tv is shite"—

TV is shite too.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

it might be true as a general trend from your perspective, but all it really means is that you haven't heard enough to have found the appealing stuff.

Gay sex is shite... ...it might be true as a general trend from your perspective, but all it really means is that you haven't had enough penis up your bum to have found the appealing stuff.

Hindustani Ambassadors are shite... ...it might be true as a general trend from your perspective, but all it really means is that you haven't driven enough of them to have found the appealing stuff.

Behringer audio equipment is shite... ...it might be true as a general trend from your perspective, but all it really means is that you haven't used enough of it to have found the appealing stuff.

See how ridiculous what you just said was when we put it into perspective, Spher?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Gay sex is shite... ...it might be true as a general trend from your perspective, but all it really means is that you haven't had enough penis up your bum to have found the appealing stuff.

Hindustani Ambassadors are shite... ...it might be true as a general trend from your perspective, but all it really means is that you haven't driven enough of them to have found the appealing stuff.

Behringer audio equipment is shite... ...it might be true as a general trend from your perspective, but all it really means is that you haven't used enough of it to have found the appealing stuff.

See how ridiculous what you just said was when we put it into perspective, Spher?

It's amazing that he was specifically making the point that jazz today could be described as a broad, general "field" that might have something for anyone's tastes...and then you respond with anal sex, Hindustani Ambassadors and Behringer audio equipment, which are all very specific examples contained within "broader fields".

In other words, your example was exactly not at all what his example was about. In fact, it was what might commonly be called a complete logic fail - you know, the kind of thing that would make you fail an exam, or the LSAT, or hey, even a common message-board argument.

Nice.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

It's amazing that he was specifically making the point that jazz today could be described as a broad, general "field" that might have something for anyone's tastes...

Which is an incorrect postulation to start with.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

and then you respond with anal sex, Hindustani Ambassadors and Behringer audio equipment, which are all very specific examples contained within "broader fields".

OK, I'll give you the first two (sort of, if we assume that Spher's postulation is correct), but if you knew anything you'd know that Behringer audio equipment is a very broad field. Spher knows what I mean, even if you don't.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

In other words, your example was exactly not at all what his example was about. In fact, it was what might commonly be called a complete logic fail - you know, the kind of thing that would make you fail an exam, or the LSAT, or hey, even a common message-board argument.

Nice.

No. What we have here is a humour fail. On your part. It usually comes packaged with "trying to show someone up online when that someone doesn't give a toss". Well done.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

OH, no, not at all.

Especially nowadays, when the limits have been stretched so far that jazz encompasses everything from Vince Guaraldi, Grant Green, Herbie Hancock, through Me'Shell NdegéOcello, the James Taylor Quartet, to the electronic stuff of Medeski Martin & Wood, and JazzMatazz' hip-hop crossover stuff, across to the avant-garde noise experiments of John Zorn…

Saying "jazz is shite" is almost like saying "tv is shite"—it might be true as a general trend from your perspective, but all it really means is that you haven't heard enough to have found the appealing stuff.

In this case, it's simple:

Dave Weckl is tremendously annoying.
Soulless, calculated virtuosity.

Chick Corea is much the same, and always has been, but his premeditation has occasionally resulted in some astounding and touching work (though I admit, the only album I regularly return to is "Friends").

Saying jazz is shite is like saying that classical music or even rock music is shite, there is just way too much of it to speak about in such absolutist terms like that, not to mention stuff that is heavily influenced by it, etc. Jazz really has no real dictionary-like definition.

I'll give you Weckl possibly, but Corea is not virtuosic for the sake of being virtuosic, he's virtuosic because that's what we hears and what he wants to play. I think his music is very genuine and reflects his artistic vision, it's not merely a vanity piece to show off his chops (although I could name several jazz musicians that do fit this category, IMO). If you are looking for something more understated of his, check this out, this is incredibly beautiful:

Soft and Gentle. - YouTube

I'm not crazy about the vocals, but the orchestration and melodic content is incredible, particularly how this whole piece builds.

Since you know about Dave Weckl, if this is because you sort of pay attention to drummers of his calibre, the drummer on this album is another heavy hitter: Steve Gadd. He doesn't play much on this track, but this dude is a monster.

[besson3c]

I recken this funky Chick Corea + Steve Gadd track has had many a drummer **** his pants in its time:

Nite Sprite. - YouTube


Some crazy Stanley Clarke bass action too.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Which is an incorrect postulation to start with.

Perhaps so, but your attempt to point that out sure fell flat.

OK, I'll give you the first two (sort of, if we assume that Spher's postulation is correct), but if you knew anything you'd know that Behringer audio equipment is a very broad field. Spher knows what I mean, even if you don't.

Well, my basement man-cave el cheapo sound system is powered by an nice little Behringer amp I was able to pick up for a good price, and one of my good friends recently installed one of their Truth powered monitors for his home studio. I'm passingly familiar, or at least familiar enough to know that "Behringer audio equipment" is still a specific subset of the much broader genre of "audio equipment", no matter how varied the line of Behringer products, and no matter how much you'd like to characterize it otherwise. Just like, to continue the analogy, there are specific sub-genres of jazz that also are surprisingly varied, but they still fit into the "jazz" label (although it doesn't work quite so well in reverse as jazz musicians were quite willing to make up a new name for their type of jazz if they felt it was unique enough...unlike, say, a single company in the audio equipment field).

Originally Posted by Doofy

No. What we have here is a humour fail. On your part. It usually comes packaged with "trying to show someone up online when that someone doesn't give a toss". Well done.

I tend to call this sort of thing "pulling a Doofy", as it's what you "do": say something dumb, backpedal and defend when called out, and then finally when you realize you actually did say something dumb, claim it was all a joke and you don't care anyway and the other person is lame because they're trying to point out something that you don't care about.

Slow clap.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Perhaps so, but your attempt to point that out sure fell flat.

No, your attempt to understand how I pointed that out fell flat.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Well, my basement man-cave el cheapo sound system is powered by an nice little Behringer amp I was able to pick up for a good price, and one of my good friends recently installed one of their Truth powered monitors for his home studio.

So, you and your friend are cheap and you buy shite products. What's that got to do with anything?

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

I'm passingly familiar, or at least familiar enough to know that "Behringer audio equipment" is still a specific subset of the much broader genre of "audio equipment", no matter how varied the line of Behringer products, and no matter how much you'd like to characterize it otherwise. Just like, to continue the analogy, there are specific sub-genres of jazz that also are surprisingly varied, but they still fit into the "jazz" label (although it doesn't work quite so well in reverse as jazz musicians were quite willing to make up a new name for their type of jazz if they felt it was unique enough...unlike, say, a single company in the audio equipment field).

No. Jazz ain't as wide a tent as you're making out. There's just not that many branches of McDonalds to provide that many musicians with their day job.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

I tend to call this sort of thing "pulling a Doofy", as it's what you "do": say something dumb, backpedal and defend when called out, and then finally when you realize you actually did say something dumb, claim it was all a joke and you don't care anyway and the other person is lame because they're trying to point out something that you don't care about.

Slow clap.

Here's your problem Greg: I didn't say anything dumb. I spoke the truth, wrapped in a little humour, which you interpreted as being dumb because you're poor. Do you not think I've actually got the means to point out something in geek talk (so you'd understand it) if I so choose?

Here's my version of "pulling a Doofy": Doof speaks the truth. Poor lamers argue with that truth because they don't have the knowledge and experience to know that it's the truth, and don't realise that Doof is a lot more intelligent than they give him credit for. Doof further explains the truth. Poor lamers further attempt to show that their Internet cock is larger than Doof's Internet cock.

Believe or don't believe it. Up to you. But one thing is certain:
You listen to jazz through a Behringer amp. And admit it. :guffaw:

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Ahhhhh yes, the other part of "pulling a Doofy": claiming his word is the "truth" and anyone in disagreement doesn't know what they're talking about, and also doesn't have as much money as he does.

"Geek talk" all you want: I was pointing out your logic fail, not your geek talk. Your logic, failed. It didn't make sense. Stop trying to cover up that point by making fun of how I'm only moderately middle-class, or the amp that makes the tunes in my unfinished storage/laundry room.

[Doofy]

It's not a logic fail, you silly boy. Not even the "gay sex" joke.

You reckon there's load of different jazz.
Well, according to my calculations, with 3.5 billion blokes on the planet and 2% of them being gay, that's loads of different j i zz too. So, there's 70 million gay blokes out there - if you don't like gay sex then you probably simply haven't tried enough of those 70 million blokes to find the niche that you like.

No logic fail at all. Canuckistani fail.

And no, if you refer to a Behringer product as a "nice little amp" then it's quite quite clear that you haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about to anybody who knows anything at all about such matters. So to avoid this fact you "pull a Greg" and come up with terms such as "pulling a Doofy".

See how that works?

[besson3c]

Greg: another facet of pulling a Doofy: he's not going to back down or concede anything. I suggest patting him on the head and moving on

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No. Jazz ain't as wide a tent as you're making out. There's just not that many branches of McDonalds to provide that many musicians with their day job.

...






Okay...

nice burn.


At least you *know* you're wrong.

What you're missing isn't the embarrassing escapades of the classic "jazz" guys (like Hancock dabbling in electronica and adding touches of drum & bass to the same ole same ole), but the people doing vastly different stuff that, due to its structural nature, or improvisational creation, or whatever, gets classified as "jazz".

Jazz is (or at least, has become) more of a "state" than a "style".

[besson3c]

For those playing along at home, here is the jazz tent:

Major styles:

- Early/Dixieland
- Big Band
- Boogie Woogie
- Ragtime
- Blues
- Bebop
- Cool
- West Coast
- Hard Bop
- Soul Jazz
- Modal Jazz
- Latin Jazz
- Fusion
- Free Jazz
- Smooth Jazz
- Third Stream

And some subgenres:

- Bossa Nova
- Samba
- Salsa
- Calpyso
- Acid
- ECM
- Contemporary Big Band

You could probably add many others (e.g. Tango, Reggae, Cha Cha?!), one could go nuts with the subgenre thing. Jazz has always been closely connected to the blues too, so you could further complicate things by throwing in Blues genres and stuff like that.


The tent of musicians outside of jazz that have worked with jazz musicians is literally too long to list, not to mention musicians whose music or individual songs are closely connected the world of jazz (for example, Stevie Wonder's Sir Duke, Ray Charles). Heck, getting into musicians associated with Quincy Jones alone really makes that list grow in a hurry.

The truth is, this genre stuff is kind of a load of shit. A great many artists don't fuss over all of this classification, especially when it is totally futile as it is with jazz since we can't even agree upon a definition of what the music is compromised of academically, let alone classify stuff.

The bottom line and my point in writing all of this is to say that the field is vast, anyone that says that jazz (or classical music, or rock, where many of these same sorts of points apply) sucks hasn't really thought through what they are saying (although saying that you don't care for it is another thing altogether and a fair thing to say). It would be like saying that food with potassium in it sucks... Maybe not, but this post needed an analogy

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

And no, if you refer to a Behringer product as a "nice little amp" then it's quite quite clear that you haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about to anybody who knows anything at all about such matters. So to avoid this fact you "pull a Greg" and come up with terms such as "pulling a Doofy".

I'm not going to try to argue equipment with you - clearly it's your business, not mine, and I'm sure your equipment is amazing - but I'm talking about some late-70s Sound Dynamics speakers and what looks to be a hand-built preamp that the former owner asked if he could leave in my basement. I added the amp for $25. By "nice little amp" I mean it's vastly overpowered for its purpose, but it works, and that's all I need out of an amp that powers the aforementioned equipment for my laundry room, storage area and little workbench, and that gets used no more than a couple times a week. What, is using a Bryston amp or something going to get more out of those speakers in that location?

I now have a Butler amp, Bryston preamp, and Gallo speakers in my audio/HT room; cables/interconnects aren't exorbitantly expensive but they're not big-box store, either. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that equipment is of better quality than 95% or higher of the general population would have. I'll go farther out and say that most people who "know anything at all about such matters" would say I've got a pretty good audio rig for someone who's not in the business or anything like that.

Like I said, you can keep splitting hairs and talking around the subject if you like. All I was pointing out was that the examples you used to "counter" SH's argument were not logically valid. And they're still not.

[Spheric Harlot]

Besson,

Since you're including Latin Jazz, you're missing Jazz-Rock, Jazz-Funk, Nu Jazz, Future Jazz, various breeds of Ethno-Jazz, and probably another dozen or so genres with varying degrees of cross-over-ness.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Besson,

Since you're including Latin Jazz, you're missing Jazz-Rock, Jazz-Funk, Nu Jazz, Future Jazz, various breeds of Ethno-Jazz, and probably another dozen or so genres with varying degrees of cross-over-ness.

I was thinking that Jazz-Rock and Jazz-Funk would either fall under Fusion or Soul Jazz, but yeah... There are oodles of genres

As far as Ethno-Jazz goes, since you seem to be a Herbie Hancock fan, what did you think of his Imagine Project? I was pretty excited about that, but honestly found out that the music didn't do much for me. Cool idea though! If you aren't familiar with this album, there is some Indian-Jazz fusion on there.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I was thinking that Jazz-Rock and Jazz-Funk would either fall under Fusion or Soul Jazz, but yeah... There are oodles of genres

Well, Soul Jazz to me is somewhere between Acid Jazz (which you also forgot) and Blaxploitation funk-jazz.

And Fusion is Dave Grusin, Earl Klugh, Bob James, that kind of stuff: high-class, extremely well-made…elevator music. (At least, that's how the musicology department at uni defined it. )

Originally Posted by besson3c 

As far as Ethno-Jazz goes, since you seem to be a Herbie Hancock fan, what did you think of his Imagine Project? I was pretty excited about that, but honestly found out that the music didn't do much for me. Cool idea though! If you aren't familiar with this album, there is some Indian-Jazz fusion on there.

Honestly, my interest for Hancock ends somewhere around '78 or so.

I saw him with the Future II Future show, and that was, quite frankly, embarrassing.