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Car Talk - come in, we'll talk, no big whoop (Shaddim's bloggish thing) (Page 11)
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Mar 17, 2013, 01:47 PM
 
Mm hmm.
     
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Mar 17, 2013, 08:28 PM
 
Anyhow, as I've mentioned a couple times already, the ST being turbocharged is an issue, even if its FWD wasn't. I'd well imagine that there would be a generous amount of upgrades to account for the extra heat, that you wouldn't encounter in NA or fresh air boost systems. On a track, turbos are much more of a liability.
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Mar 18, 2013, 02:16 AM
 
I...what?
     
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Mar 18, 2013, 07:05 AM
 
So, what's causing your not-so-fresh feeling?
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Mar 18, 2013, 08:55 AM
 
It's very rare that comparing the price of a new car to the cost of a used car + mods will ever come out in favor of the new car. That's an apples-to-oranges comparison. That's why comparing the price of a new ST to the price of a used BRZ/FRS + mods doesn't make sense.

Also, what the hell is a "fresh air boost system"? Neither I nor Google has ever heard of that.
     
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Mar 18, 2013, 09:36 AM
 
A supercharger is a fresh air boost system, turbos run off exhaust gases. Sorry, I assumed you knew that.

Since the ST is currently immune to depreciation (due to low supply of used cars), as evidenced by the few that are too far away from me selling for so close to new pricing, whether it's new or not is irrelevant.
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Mar 18, 2013, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
A supercharger is a fresh air boost system, turbos run off exhaust gases. Sorry, I assumed you knew that.
Both statements are true but misleading. They both provide a higher volume of fresh air. The turbo doesn't pump exhaust gasses into the engine. The turbo uses exhaust pressure, a supercharger is usually driven off the crank.
     
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Mar 18, 2013, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
A supercharger is a fresh air boost system, turbos run off exhaust gases. Sorry, I assumed you knew that.
Not sure if you know exactly what they are and just write strangely, or if you're really confused, but...

Both a turbocharger and a supercharger increase the pressure of the intake air before it is injected into the cylinder. The air injected is always fresh air - the difference is in how you drive the turbine that increases the air pressure. In a turbocharger, the turbine is driven by the exhaust air - in a supercharger, the turbine is driven by the crankshaft.
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Mar 18, 2013, 11:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
A supercharger is a fresh air boost system, turbos run off exhaust gases. Sorry, I assumed you knew that.
I didn't know that because it's not true. Find me a qualified source that actually uses that phrase in that context.

Since the ST is currently immune to depreciation (due to low supply of used cars), as evidenced by the few that are too far away from me selling for so close to new pricing, whether it's new or not is irrelevant.
Then why did you make the distinction in the first place?

edit: While we're at it, this is wrong, too:

I'd well imagine that there would be a generous amount of upgrades to account for the extra heat, that you wouldn't encounter in NA or fresh air boost systems. On a track, turbos are much more of a liability.
The only extra heat that a turbo introduces into the engine bay is the heat generated by compressing air. A supercharger operating at the same efficiency and boost level will generate the same amount of heat. The turbine housing and extra exhaust plumbing act as potential radiators for exhaust gas heat but that can be (and easily is) managed.
     
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Mar 18, 2013, 11:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Anyhow, as I've mentioned a couple times already, the ST being turbocharged is an issue, even if its FWD wasn't. I'd well imagine that there would be a generous amount of upgrades to account for the extra heat, that you wouldn't encounter in NA or fresh air boost systems. On a track, turbos are much more of a liability.
If you give the car a proper cool down period I doubt it would be an issue.
     
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Mar 18, 2013, 11:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
A supercharger is a fresh air boost system, turbos run off exhaust gases. Sorry, I assumed you knew that.
You're implying that a turbocharger pumps exhaust gases into a motor???
     
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Mar 18, 2013, 11:48 AM
 
A turbo does operate at much higher internal temperatures that a supercharger but I though they had solved those material issues in the '50s.
     
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Mar 18, 2013, 12:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
If you give the car a proper cool down period I doubt it would be an issue.
Modern water-cooled turbos from OEMs are typically designed so that the latent heat in the turbo causes the coolant to continue circulating even after the engine has stopped running. No more cooldown periods or turbo timers necessary. Add to that improvements in coking-resistance of synthetic oils and isn't any more liability than any system that adds additional points of failure to an engine. Though it will be interesting to see the state of the used car market in 20 years when all of these turbo cars are nearing the end of their lifespan. Hopefully they fare better than the remnants of the '80s turbo craze.

Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
A turbo does operate at much higher internal temperatures that a supercharger but I though they had solved those material issues in the '50s.
There's the potential for higher underhood temperatures because the exhaust gas spends more time underhood and has a greater surface area from which to radiate. It's not a materials issue, it's a heat management issue.
     
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Mar 18, 2013, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
There's the potential for higher underhood temperatures because the exhaust gas spends more time underhood and has a greater surface area from which to radiate. It's not a materials issue, it's a heat management issue.
Or in a race car an air flow issue. Its a question if how much drag is introduced vs how much HP added. I can't see it not being a favorable trade off. Except this isn't lemans, aren't there categories? Some match-ups just wouldn't be competitive. So I would think you'd want the simplest solution that puts you right at the upper limit.
     
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Mar 18, 2013, 03:11 PM
 
Is "Fresh air boost system" the new "Vertically aligned engine"?
     
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Mar 18, 2013, 04:11 PM
 
Oh man, that thread just made me cry...again
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Mar 18, 2013, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Not sure if you know exactly what they are and just write strangely, or if you're really confused, but...

Both a turbocharger and a supercharger increase the pressure of the intake air before it is injected into the cylinder. The air injected is always fresh air - the difference is in how you drive the turbine that increases the air pressure. In a turbocharger, the turbine is driven by the exhaust air - in a supercharger, the turbine is driven by the crankshaft.
I was referring to heat, as I mentioned before, not the exhaust itself. Superchargers don't build up a volume of heat as quickly as a turbocharger.
( Last edited by Shaddim; Mar 19, 2013 at 07:02 AM. Reason: Oops, mistype)
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Mar 18, 2013, 05:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I didn't know that because it's not true. Find me a qualified source that actually uses that phrase in that context.
So, turbos don't run hotter due to exhaust temps? Shocking.

Paging Mr Pedantic, line 1.
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Mar 18, 2013, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Oh man, that thread just made me cry...again
and I see you're trolling it... again.
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Mar 18, 2013, 05:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I was referring to heat, as I mentioned before, not the exhaust itself. Superchargers don't build up a volume of heat as quickly as a supercharger.
Increasing the pressure of the intake will generate heat, period. That's what an intercooler is for.
     
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Mar 18, 2013, 06:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by iMOTOR View Post
Increasing the pressure of the intake will generate heat, period. That's what an intercooler is for.
Correct, however it isn't a general fix, and there are several different types of ICs, and some are less robust than others. For forced induction, roots systems are typically the most worry-free (WRT temps), yet are more mechanically delicate (and there's parasitic power loss), from what I've encountered. While a centrifugal (Procharger) style is a cost-effective compromise but really does need an intercooler at a certain point.

Lately turbos have been the go-to method, due to fuel efficiency, however even the best anti-lag measures aren't entirely successful, despite manufacturer claims. Not an issue if you're a good heel-toe driver, but the pin in my ankle makes that uncomfortable after a while.
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Mar 19, 2013, 06:35 AM
 
The backpedaling here is staggering.
     
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Mar 19, 2013, 06:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Or in a race car an air flow issue. Its a question if how much drag is introduced vs how much HP added. I can't see it not being a favorable trade off.
Excellent point. Did you know that the new Focus has servo-actuated flaps in its front grill that open when more cooling is needed and close when it's not in an attempt to reduce drag?
     
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Mar 19, 2013, 06:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
The backpedaling here is staggering.
Only in your mind. Since you want to act like a jackal and attack anyone who oversimplifies when making a comment, you'd think that. How's about you stop trying to provoke people and act more civil?
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Mar 19, 2013, 07:37 AM
 
Dude. You were wrong. Man up and admit it, then we can move on.
     
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Mar 19, 2013, 08:43 AM
 
[/Reminiscing]
( Last edited by ShortcutToMoncton; Mar 19, 2013 at 09:56 AM. )
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Mar 19, 2013, 09:07 AM
 
Reminiscing is not allowed.
     
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Mar 19, 2013, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Dude. You were wrong. Man up and admit it, then we can move on.
I'm moving on, regardless. Fresh air = cool air, exhaust gas = hot air (very familiar to you), I was explaining where the extra heat comes from. I oversimplified, at least too much for our middle school demographic. Now, you through acting like you're 12?
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Mar 20, 2013, 02:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I'm moving on, regardless. Fresh air = cool air, exhaust gas = hot air (very familiar to you), I was explaining where the extra heat comes from. I oversimplified, at least too much for our middle school demographic. Now, you through acting like you're 12?
More backpedaling, and it's pretty clear that you don't understand forced induction. You seem to be saying that a supercharger provides cooler air to the engine (because you've decided that you purposely meant fresh = cool and that it wasn't a misspeak on your part). This simply isn't true. The primary cause of the temperature increase in boost isn't the method of compression, but the very nature of compression.

Even more telling is your lauding of a Roots-type positive displacement supercharger as "worry-free" with respect to temperature.
     
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Mar 20, 2013, 04:30 AM
 
Not to gang up on you or anything, but I'm with Lam on this one. It seems like you're trying to save face after having let a misconception about turbocharging slip. Certainly not worth ruining a thread, though.

However, I do reserve the right to use "Fresh air boost" sarcastically in the future.
     
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Mar 20, 2013, 04:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
More backpedaling, and it's pretty clear that you don't understand forced induction. You seem to be saying that a supercharger provides cooler air to the engine (because you've decided that you purposely meant fresh = cool and that it wasn't a misspeak on your part). This simply isn't true. The primary cause of the temperature increase in boost isn't the method of compression, but the very nature of compression.

Even more telling is your lauding of a Roots-type positive displacement supercharger as "worry-free" with respect to temperature.
I've not encountered issues with roots supercharger temps, because in that way they are more worry free. I've heard they can have issues with heat, but I've not seen it personally (which is why I said "typically the most"). You decided to try and pick this fight, for whatever reason, because you're trying to score some advantage, or you've simply failed at reading adjectives, I don't know. Your aggression, and heavy-handed conversation tactics, is very telling, though.

Yes, on average, turbos do run hotter, and because of more heat coming into the centrifuge. As an experiment, grab the air intake on the turbo after driving hard for ~ an hour and get back with us. I'll do the same with a roots SC and we'll compare notes.
( Last edited by Shaddim; Mar 20, 2013 at 05:28 AM. )
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Mar 20, 2013, 04:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by iMOTOR View Post
However, I do reserve the right to use "Fresh air boost" sarcastically in the future.
If I never reply to your comments you'll know that I've put you in Time Out as well.

I'm not trying to ruin the thread, that's what some others are trying to do, I'm dropping the subject.
( Last edited by Shaddim; Mar 20, 2013 at 05:27 AM. )
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Mar 20, 2013, 10:11 PM
 
After talking with my nephew, I bought the FR-S, it's going to be his b-day gift. Though not really a gift because he's going to pay me back by working hours at the local shelter and hospital. Gives me a little time to play with the car until he gets the keys, though. It's a nicely balanced thing, I like it, but it does need a little more power... which is perfect for him, since 16 y/o kids don't need powerful cars.
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Mar 21, 2013, 02:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Yes, on average, turbos do run hotter, and because of more heat coming into the centrifuge. As an experiment, grab the air intake on the turbo after driving hard for ~ an hour and get back with us. I'll do the same with a roots SC and we'll compare notes.
What kind of experiment is that? How about we look at the underlying principles and laws of thermodynamics. How about we consider that with a Roots-type blower, your only real option for intercooling is air-to-water, which is difficult due to hood height, packaging, and is generally less efficient than air-to-air. So with any significant amount of boost, your intake temps will be lower with a centrifugal SC or a turbo because a decent charge air cooler can be fitted. I didn't just drive a car with a blower once, I do this stuff for a living. It's pretty clear that you don't understand the underlying principles and you're trying to extrapolate some tiny experience into what's "typical."
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 02:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What kind of experiment is that?
A facetious one. Even *I* get that, and I have no clue at all what you kids are arguing about.

But I'm better at sarcasm than at cars.
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 08:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Yes, on average, turbos do run hotter, and because of more heat coming into the centrifuge. As an experiment, grab the air intake on the turbo after driving hard for ~ an hour and get back with us. I'll do the same with a roots SC and we'll compare notes.
So your argument is that hot exhaust air comes in to the turbine and heats up the turbine to such an extent that the turbine will heat the cool intake air. Possibly a little bit, but not significantly. The exhaust air will expand as it loses pressure, which makes it cooler, thereby transporting heat from the turbine.

The main effect that increases the temperature of the intake air comes from the ideal gas law, PV=nRT. If you experience that turbos heat the intake air more than superchargers, I think it is because the turbos in question increase the intake pressure more.
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Mar 21, 2013, 08:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What kind of experiment is that? How about we look at the underlying principles and laws of thermodynamics. How about we consider that with a Roots-type blower, your only real option for intercooling is air-to-water, which is difficult due to hood height, packaging, and is generally less efficient than air-to-air. So with any significant amount of boost, your intake temps will be lower with a centrifugal SC or a turbo because a decent charge air cooler can be fitted. I didn't just drive a car with a blower once, I do this stuff for a living. It's pretty clear that you don't understand the underlying principles and you're trying to extrapolate some tiny experience into what's "typical."
No, see, that's "backpedaling". You understood what I was trying to say, but instead of politely commenting you were rude. Right?
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Mar 21, 2013, 08:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
So your argument is that hot exhaust air comes in to the turbine and heats up the turbine to such an extent that the turbine will heat the cool intake air. Possibly a little bit, but not significantly. The exhaust air will expand as it loses pressure, which makes it cooler, thereby transporting heat from the turbine.

The main effect that increases the temperature of the intake air comes from the ideal gas law, PV=nRT. If you experience that turbos heat the intake air more than superchargers, I think it is because the turbos in question increase the intake pressure more.
Now that, that makes a lot of sense, thanks.
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Mar 21, 2013, 03:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
So your argument is that hot exhaust air comes in to the turbine and heats up the turbine to such an extent that the turbine will heat the cool intake air. Possibly a little bit, but not significantly. The exhaust air will expand as it loses pressure, which makes it cooler, thereby transporting heat from the turbine.

The main effect that increases the temperature of the intake air comes from the ideal gas law, PV=nRT. If you experience that turbos heat the intake air more than superchargers, I think it is because the turbos in question increase the intake pressure more.
Jeez, P, what do you NOT have detailed technical knowledge of?
     
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Mar 21, 2013, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Jeez, P, what do you NOT have detailed technical knowledge of?
Many many things. My main skill is knowing enough about a subject to be able to google the rest.
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Mar 21, 2013, 07:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
No, see, that's "backpedaling". You understood what I was trying to say, but instead of politely commenting you were rude. Right?
I could have corrected you right away, to which you would have likely responded, "Of course that's what I meant." This way we got to have some fun.
     
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Mar 22, 2013, 12:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I could have corrected you right away, to which you would have likely responded, "Of course that's what I meant." This way we got to have some fun.
Mm hmm.
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Mar 22, 2013, 10:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
After talking with my nephew, I bought the FR-S, it's going to be his b-day gift. Though not really a gift because he's going to pay me back by working hours at the local shelter and hospital. Gives me a little time to play with the car until he gets the keys, though. It's a nicely balanced thing, I like it, but it does need a little more power... which is perfect for him, since 16 y/o kids don't need powerful cars.
Considering most 16 year olds get to drive something older than they are, yes, it's a gift.
     
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Mar 22, 2013, 12:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Considering most 16 year olds get to drive something older than they are, yes, it's a gift.
I had a nice, and almost new, 5.0 Mustang at his age (which I had a job and paid for), so it's comparable. He wanted an early Mach 1, but that wasn't going to happen.
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Mar 22, 2013, 12:18 PM
 
I had a 76 Ford Elite which cost my parents $800, and which I considered a very nice gift.
     
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I had a Fiat Panda.
     
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I had a bus card.

And it was long enough ago my parents called it "car fare".
     
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Mine was a Volvo 850 T5 but I couldn't afford parts, hence my Accord. Much more reasonable. Though I miss the Volvo a lot. My Accord at 256,000 miles has cost me much less to run than the Volvo did at 175,000.
     
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Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
I had a Fiat Panda.
Me too. It was supposed to be a no-frills, built to last car, but reliability was awful.
     
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Mar 23, 2013, 02:01 PM
 
I remember the plastic jobby for winding the window breaking and the heater was crap, but apart from that it wasn't too bad. My mum gave it to me and got herself a Mazda 121 (IIRC it was the Fiesta in the US for a while). When the Panda died, I 'borrowed' the Mazda for a while. Great little car.
     
 
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