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Windows XP retirement
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Clinically Insane
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Aug 7, 2013, 04:10 PM
 
So, it looks like it will be officially retired early next year. Any predictions as to how long it will linger? I'm sure it will linger much longer than most of us would like, but not getting security updates any more is a real kick in the groin to those determined to camp out on XP.

The fact that XP doesn't support SNI (to allow multiple SSL web certs served under a single IP), and that the most modern IE browser you can get for XP is IE 8 has me rather looking forward to the retirement of XP. I've been assuming that most people will skip over Vista and go straight to Win 7 or 8 too, it will be interesting to see if one of these becomes the new XP that people stay on for a gazillion years.
     
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Aug 7, 2013, 09:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So, it looks like it will be officially retired early next year. Any predictions as to how long it will linger? I'm sure it will linger much longer than most of us would like, but not getting security updates any more is a real kick in the groin to those determined to camp out on XP.

The fact that XP doesn't support SNI (to allow multiple SSL web certs served under a single IP), and that the most modern IE browser you can get for XP is IE 8 has me rather looking forward to the retirement of XP. I've been assuming that most people will skip over Vista and go straight to Win 7 or 8 too, it will be interesting to see if one of these becomes the new XP that people stay on for a gazillion years.
I still have lots of online students running XP every semester. I use it daily on 2 or 3 different machines. For my netbook it is absolutely necessary, unless I want to go to Linux. For my BootCamp partition I can't see using anything else. It will be a tough transition. For my wife, too, since she runs on a regular laptop, BootCamp partition and a netbook as well.
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Aug 7, 2013, 10:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
I still have lots of online students running XP every semester. I use it daily on 2 or 3 different machines. For my netbook it is absolutely necessary, unless I want to go to Linux. For my BootCamp partition I can't see using anything else. It will be a tough transition. For my wife, too, since she runs on a regular laptop, BootCamp partition and a netbook as well.

Do you think this retirement will urge more aggressive transitions away from it, or will people just suffer through the retirement somehow?
     
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Aug 11, 2013, 01:41 PM
 
I'd be curious as to how many people still use it, and haven't updated it in years. I still see videos takes in research labs and studios where you see the old XP logo screensaver. It's probably going to be a while before people *need* to upgrade.

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Aug 11, 2013, 03:22 PM
 
At my organization they're migrating from Windows XP to Windows 7, and they'll probably stay on 7 for quite a while.
     
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Aug 11, 2013, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
At my organization they're migrating from Windows XP to Windows 7, and they'll probably stay on 7 for quite a while.
Is there a pressing need to upgrade? Just curious. XP always seemed like the "OS that just worked".

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Aug 11, 2013, 05:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
At my organization they're migrating from Windows XP to Windows 7, and they'll probably stay on 7 for quite a while.
Same for me. 60,000 employees don't get migrated quickly.
     
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Aug 11, 2013, 05:52 PM
 
Yeah, 7 is the new XP. No-one likes 8, people are still downgrading to 7.
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Aug 11, 2013, 06:15 PM
 
I hated 8. I don't need that Metro interface. At the time you couldn't boot directly into it. 7 works, just like XP worked. Besides, it's pretty expensive now. Yeah, I could have bought it for $40 early on but now, meh.

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Aug 11, 2013, 08:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Is there a pressing need to upgrade? Just curious. XP always seemed like the "OS that just worked".
Yeah. In April 2014 Microsoft stops supporting XP with Security Updates.

I work for a large health care organization. 14 major hospitals across Ohio and parts of Kentucky. Our electronic medical records system runs on Windows 2008 (R2 I believe) servers but the client access is via Citrix on Windows XP. (Except me. I run it off the iMac in my office).

Do you want your hospital to be running on an operating system that no longer gets security updates?

I'd say that's pretty pressing.
     
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Aug 11, 2013, 11:59 PM
 
However big a problem this is in the United States, this will be a bigger problem in places like China where a higher percentage of computers still use XP. Half of their computers with no security updates? Now that will be interesting.

And I think most people agree that windows 7 will be the new XP.
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Aug 14, 2013, 10:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Do you think this retirement will urge more aggressive transitions away from it, or will people just suffer through the retirement somehow?
Well, after thinking about the thread I ended up buying a Win8 laptop last weekend (it was Dell, and it was on closeout at Sams, and I could have bought FIVE of these for the same price as a decently usable MacBook Pro setup). I immediately installed Classic Shell, otherwise Win8 is unusable. Windows 8 is an abomination.

I'll continue to rely on XP as long as I can on my other machines, and so I can see what my BlackBoard shells look like in smaller windows on the older machines. Plus, I have XP in BootCamp on both of our Macs - I can't see running Win7 in BootCamp. Our netbooks won't run anything hotter than XP SP3, so if it's EOL then short of Linux I don't know where we go from here. That's a lot of hardware to just retire.

What I see with my students, and their demographics are all over the place, is that they never upgrade until forced to. This hasn't changed since I was in the business 20 years ago as a VAR. But the idea that Win users have to update by going to Win8 will force many of them to hang on to XP as long as possible, and many more to come over to the Mac side (which, as the Sith eventually found out, is much more powerful than the other side).
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Aug 15, 2013, 02:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
Yeah. In April 2014 Microsoft stops supporting XP with Security Updates.

I work for a large health care organization. 14 major hospitals across Ohio and parts of Kentucky. Our electronic medical records system runs on Windows 2008 (R2 I believe) servers but the client access is via Citrix on Windows XP. (Except me. I run it off the iMac in my office).

Do you want your hospital to be running on an operating system that no longer gets security updates?

I'd say that's pretty pressing.
There is a way to get updates for a while longer by signing a special maintenance contract with MS. MS does not do that out of the goodness of their heart, however - be prepared to pay for that luxury.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Aug 15, 2013, 02:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Our netbooks won't run anything hotter than XP SP3, so if it's EOL then short of Linux I don't know where we go from here. That's a lot of hardware to just retire
Win 7 system requirements are 1 GHz CPU and and 1 GB of RAM, so they will probably WORK with Win 7. Not that it will be enjoyable, as Aero won't work unless you meet certain minimum graphics requirements, but as GMA 950 manages to run Aero just barely, many netbooks will even do that.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Aug 15, 2013, 11:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
There is a way to get updates for a while longer by signing a special maintenance contract with MS. MS does not do that out of the goodness of their heart, however - be prepared to pay for that luxury.
Our IT department is migrating everyone to Windows 7, one location at a time. They'll be done by the end of support deadline. I doubt my organization will sign a special maintenance contract.
     
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Aug 15, 2013, 12:49 PM
 
All the US Gov't agencies have to have ALL the XP boxes out by September.
     
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Aug 15, 2013, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I'd be curious as to how many people still use it, and haven't updated it in years. I still see videos takes in research labs and studios where you see the old XP logo screensaver. It's probably going to be a while before people *need* to upgrade.
My neighbor uses it, he hates change.
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Aug 15, 2013, 01:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
All the US Gov't agencies have to have ALL the XP boxes out by September.
How do you know that?
     
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Aug 15, 2013, 03:11 PM
 
I work at NASA HQ.. Its a Federal Mandate. Only XP boxes allowed have to have waiver.
     
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Aug 15, 2013, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I work at NASA HQ.. Its a Federal Mandate. Only XP boxes allowed have to have waiver.

Wait, you work at NASA and you're the 0bama guy? Huh? What do you do at NASA?
     
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Aug 15, 2013, 11:15 PM
 
Maybe this will finally reduce the number of people using Internet Explorer 6. If anything, it'll give web developers an excuse to design sites that don't support it.
     
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Aug 15, 2013, 11:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
Maybe this will finally reduce the number of people using Internet Explorer 6. If anything, it'll give web developers an excuse to design sites that don't support it.
IE 6 has long been dead, I'm thinking more along the lines of IE 8, since IE 8 is the last IE version you can get for XP. We're not close to being able to drop support for IE 8, but I'm hoping that the retirement of XP speeds this process along.
     
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Aug 16, 2013, 03:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
IE 6 has long been dead, I'm thinking more along the lines of IE 8, since IE 8 is the last IE version you can get for XP. We're not close to being able to drop support for IE 8, but I'm hoping that the retirement of XP speeds this process along.
It depends where a site's user base is. I've been told by more than one frustrated developer that Windows XP is still popular in China, and not all of its users there have bothered to upgrade the web browser. Fortunately its use is declining: Is IE6 Really Dead in China? | Global SEM
     
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Aug 16, 2013, 03:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
It depends where a site's user base is. I've been told by more than one frustrated developer that Windows XP is still popular in China, and not all of its users there have bothered to upgrade the web browser. Fortunately its use is declining: Is IE6 Really Dead in China? | Global SEM
I would think the suckiness of Android 2.x is of greater concern to web developers than IE 6 at this point, unless your demographic is really largely in the developing world.
     
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Aug 16, 2013, 08:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Wait, you work at NASA and you're the 0bama guy? Huh? What do you do at NASA?
I support the high end graphics Mac's used for the printing and display shop. Being the senior Mac guy has some perks.
     
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Aug 16, 2013, 12:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I support the high end graphics Mac's used for the printing and display shop. Being the senior Mac guy has some perks.
I see!
     
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Aug 17, 2013, 07:57 PM
 
The ISP I work for just finally switched (mostly) all of the computers used by tech support to Windows 7.

I think Windows 7 gets a free pass because Vista and 8 are so lousy. It's still a pretty garbage OS. The system becomes randomly unresponsive, they forget they have a second monitor, etc. Not to mention I get to see what happens to the machines of regular people every day when I remote into them and see just how much junkware still gets installed even with all that extra security crap Microsoft put in.

No Windows OS has ever been made with normal people in mind.
     
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Aug 17, 2013, 08:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
The system becomes randomly unresponsive, they forget they have a second monitor, etc.
A lot of that can be due to the way your company has the machine configured. My government Win7 machine was rock-solid, even with enterprise crapware on it. My desktop is Win7 (I don't have any XP machines left, tbh), and it's solid. As in, it doesn't crash. Ever.

The only problem I've had with it is a video card driver issue, and that's nvidia's fault.

Not to mention I get to see what happens to the machines of regular people every day when I remote into them and see just how much junkware still gets installed even with all that extra security crap Microsoft put in.
Security is meaningless when users click Yes on everything they see. A lot of freeware these days includes adware in the installer. Unless you actually pay attention to what the installer is doing, it's automatic.

No amount of security in any operating system can cover up the stupidity and ignorance of users.

I upgraded my laptop to an SSD and installed Windows 8 while I was at it. It's actually pretty awesome. There have been some nice upgrades to the OS, and Pokki Menu pretty much took care of my desire for a traditional start button - but even then the Metro start screen isn't bad at all. Hit windows key, start typing application name, and it finds it.

It's also very stable - haven't had it lock up, crash, or require a reboot yet.

Windows Vista was very stable after Service Pack 1. Unfortunately, it was too late for a lot of people. Windows 8 isn't quite the same - it's been very good at initial release. At this point, the only reason I haven't upgraded my desktop yet is because 8.1 is coming out in a few months, so I'm just going to wait until it shows up on TechNet and upgrade then.

With Windows 8, people mess with the new start screen at Best Buy for five minutes and assume from that experience that the OS sucks. I don't even pay attention to the start screen anymore - it's pretty seamless.
     
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Aug 18, 2013, 03:51 AM
 
Why is it that Windows software is a cesspool of adware/crapware stuff while you don't see this very much under OS X?

Also, do Win 7 and 8 still experience bit rot?
     
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Aug 18, 2013, 08:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why is it that Windows software is a cesspool of adware/crapware stuff while you don't see this very much under OS X?

Also, do Win 7 and 8 still experience bit rot?
On the first: interesting question. Probably because most Mac programs do not require installers, so Mac users aren't trained to just click Yes on every prompt.

On the second: not as badly. The main cause of Win rot, DLL hell, has been mitigated, and any application using the recommended tools (Windows installer, in particular) wont trigger it unintentionally.
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Aug 18, 2013, 09:52 AM
 
The problem is that some of the worst adware offenders are Microsoft certified gold partners and so on and so forth.

I think Apple did a better job of sending the expectation to developers that they don't have entirely free reign with the OS, and that Apple will **** you up if you mess with the user experience. Microsoft on the other hand gives you a badge if you make adware and pay them a few grand.

Heck now OS X won't even run apps downloaded from the net if they're not signed by a registered Apple Dev unless you turn that off. If Windows was like that I think I'd end up seeing way fewer people calling in claiming their internet was slow when really their computer is just bogged down to hell.

Also I've seen a lot of customers with Windows 7 installs that are bogged down and slow despite having more than 2 sometimes 4 gigs of RAM and a processor that should be fine.

Meanwhile every time I see a customer with a Mac calling in it's either because the computer is fine but the user has no clue what they're doing, or because Mail tried sending email over port 587 and got stuck there because of a known issue with our ISP's outgoing mail settings. (Which I keep trying to get fixed but ... big company, small me.)
     
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Aug 18, 2013, 10:23 AM
 
One of the things I do at work is design, engineer, and field our corporate Windows 7 x64 image plus some standard user applications to locations worldwide. It works great because it's not that retail crap and I know what I'm doing. Our hardware is all over the map but still runs well on the old stuff and great on the new-ish stuff. We work as low as 4GB RAM and Core 2 Duo and as high as 8GB RAM and Core i7. I have zero plans to migrate to Win 8.x, but Server 2012 is definitely in the cards.
     
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Aug 19, 2013, 07:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why is it that Windows software is a cesspool of adware/crapware stuff while you don't see this very much under OS X?

Also, do Win 7 and 8 still experience bit rot?
I think its just a question that people are used to it with Windows. If you go to update Flash player on Windows, it asks you if you want McAfee and its ticked by default. Previously IIRC it was Google Toolbar which still seems to install itself with half a dozen other popular free apps.

This sort of thing never spread beyond printer software with Macs. I used to have a little speech when I installed printers onsite for customers where I would say "Here is the CD that comes in the box, and here is where it goes, in the bin."
Luckily even printer makers have started moving towards just "The driver is already bundled with your Mac" or "Just download it from here". No more crapware photo editing software that no-one ever used.
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Aug 19, 2013, 08:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I think its just a question that people are used to it with Windows. If you go to update Flash player on Windows, it asks you if you want McAfee and its ticked by default. Previously IIRC it was Google Toolbar which still seems to install itself with half a dozen other popular free apps
That one is bad - it's Adobe bundling an Intel product - but it's not the worst, because if you let Flash update itself, you don't get that box. The worst one is the Ask! toolbar, which is bundled with Java. That one tries to install itself with every single Java update - downloads itself every single time, and you have to uncheck it when the installer is running. If I could ask Ellison one thing, I'd ask him why he lets that go on. He has to know that it hurts his brand.
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Aug 19, 2013, 03:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why is it that Windows software is a cesspool of adware/crapware stuff while you don't see this very much under OS X?
In part because of the lack of installers, but also because so few applications exist for OS X relative to what's out there for Windows.

For instance: I tried to find a standalone Facebook chat client for Windows that wasn't a multiprotocol deal like Pidgin, InstantBird, or Digsby. The only freeware out there was ad-laden, in both the installer and the software itself.

Windows has significantly more users, too, which means that there are simply more idiots using Windows - and those are the people that adware installers target.

Most download sites today use "downloaders" that are difficult or impossible to bypass, and those generally are loaded with adware.

That being said, MSE is extremely good about catching that crap.

Also, do Win 7 and 8 still experience bit rot?
What does this even mean?

Originally Posted by P View Post
That one is bad - it's Adobe bundling an Intel product - but it's not the worst, because if you let Flash update itself, you don't get that box. The worst one is the Ask! toolbar, which is bundled with Java. That one tries to install itself with every single Java update - downloads itself every single time, and you have to uncheck it when the installer is running. If I could ask Ellison one thing, I'd ask him why he lets that go on. He has to know that it hurts his brand.
The Java one is easy to bypass - just use the offline installer. Once you install Java with the offline installer, it will never ask to install a toolbar. Ever.

Java Downloads for All Operating Systems

Originally Posted by Salty View Post
I think Apple did a better job of sending the expectation to developers that they don't have entirely free reign with the OS, and that Apple will **** you up if you mess with the user experience. Microsoft on the other hand gives you a badge if you make adware and pay them a few grand.

Heck now OS X won't even run apps downloaded from the net if they're not signed by a registered Apple Dev unless you turn that off. If Windows was like that I think I'd end up seeing way fewer people calling in claiming their internet was slow when really their computer is just bogged down to hell.
I know you want to believe this is great, but this is a very bad thing. The whole Apple Dev registration thing is fundamentally flawed - the terms of the agreement allow Apple to terminate your dev registration at any time without reason, and once your registration is terminated, your applications are all disallowed from being installed in OS X without this "feature" being disabled.

Apple's not doing it because they're great guys who want to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. They're doing it because it turns out that enforcing godlike control on the operating system is appealing to them. This was pretty clearly demonstrated when they blanketly and irreversibly disabled Java in OS X awhile back, even on enterprise machines. Without permission.

The biggest reason Windows 8 RT failed was because you couldn't load your own applications on it - it had to be through Microsoft's app store. That works for iPhone users, because iPhone users generally believe that Apple loves them and are happy being limited to only what Apple allows them to use. Microsoft customers are more business-oriented (the majority of Microsoft's customers are businesses, not end-users) and as a result have zero interest in a product that requires them to submit internal software to Microsoft, pay for certification, and then download it from the Internet just to get it on their users' devices.

Meanwhile every time I see a customer with a Mac calling in it's either because the computer is fine but the user has no clue what they're doing, or because Mail tried sending email over port 587 and got stuck there because of a known issue with our ISP's outgoing mail settings. (Which I keep trying to get fixed but ... big company, small me.)
I had to manually uninstall some vicious adware in a customer's machine that was embedded in every corner of the OS. On a Mac.

Macs aren't immune - a big part of it is still security through obscurity. People writing malware want to hurt the largest number of people. That by default is not Mac users.
     
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Aug 19, 2013, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Win 7 system requirements are 1 GHz CPU and and 1 GB of RAM, so they will probably WORK with Win 7. Not that it will be enjoyable, as Aero won't work unless you meet certain minimum graphics requirements, but as GMA 950 manages to run Aero just barely, many netbooks will even do that.
They might work, but they'll be unusable. That's the trouble.

I keep sliding down the Win8 learning curve, and I still think it sucks. For collaboration, though, I'm pretty much stuck without a decent Windows machine to lug around.
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Aug 19, 2013, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Most download sites today use "downloaders" that are difficult or impossible to bypass, and those generally are loaded with adware.
This is another plague. When downloading things for my Windows install, I frequently do so on the Mac and transfer them by USB stick to avoid this garbage.

Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
That being said, MSE is extremely good about catching that crap.
That is my experience as well, but it is not testing well for some reason - I keep seeing it come in last in tests.

Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
What does this even mean?
Bitrot in general is how an install goes bad over time. Winrot in particular is how Windows installs go bad. This was a serious problem back in the nineties and early 00s, but it has been mostly fixed now. The main problem is that MS has completely messed up the library versioning system. The UNIX way of versioning libraries (which at this point means the "everything but Windows way") is to have a major version, a minor version and a fix digit. An application is compiled against a certain specific library version and will load any library that has exactly the same major version and the same or higher minor version - anything else is ignored. This lets you make incompatible library versions without breaking old programs - you just install the new library next to the old one. Windows doesn't do this - all libraries are supposed to be backwards compatible. The problem is that they frequently aren't, so installers make sure to install a tested version of the library, even if it is older than what was there already. To make it worse, it used to be that libraries were located through a globally writable registry entry for each library - no exceptions possible. This is called DLL hell. MS has over time tried to mitigate this: They lock libraries that are required by the system so they can't be downgraded, they improved the way of locating files, made it possible to load mutliple versions of the same library at once, and include a free installer that understands the complicated mess they have made so people don't write their own bad installers. .NET also avoids the old DLL mess entirely.

Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
The Java one is easy to bypass - just use the offline installer. Once you install Java with the offline installer, it will never ask to install a toolbar. Ever.

Java Downloads for All Operating Systems
Thanks for the link, but that wasn't the point. I can avoid it - too many people can't.

Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I know you want to believe this is great, but this is a very bad thing. The whole Apple Dev registration thing is fundamentally flawed - the terms of the agreement allow Apple to terminate your dev registration at any time without reason, and once your registration is terminated, your applications are all disallowed from being installed in OS X without this "feature" being disabled.

Apple's not doing it because they're great guys who want to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. They're doing it because it turns out that enforcing godlike control on the operating system is appealing to them. This was pretty clearly demonstrated when they blanketly and irreversibly disabled Java in OS X awhile back, even on enterprise machines. Without permission.

The biggest reason Windows 8 RT failed was because you couldn't load your own applications on it - it had to be through Microsoft's app store. That works for iPhone users, because iPhone users generally believe that Apple loves them and are happy being limited to only what Apple allows them to use. Microsoft customers are more business-oriented (the majority of Microsoft's customers are businesses, not end-users) and as a result have zero interest in a product that requires them to submit internal software to Microsoft, pay for certification, and then download it from the Internet just to get it on their users' devices.
I realize that you're not writing this to me, but there is a big difference between what Apple did for OS X and what they did for iOS. You can circumvent the lock in OS X by using the elite hacking technique of selecting the object and then "Open" from the menu - all it blocks is the double-click, and it only does that the first time. Even if you get blacklisted - which I haven't heard happening to anyone except real malware writers yet - you can easily make a website that explains this, or just put some text to that effect in the disk image, like they do with the "drag this to this folder".

Apple disabled THEIR OWN Java install because it was no longer secure - and said so in the dialog box that popped up. Or do you mean that they blocked the plugin in Safari?

And Windows RT failed for a million reasons - including the fact that the hardware wasn't very attractive, the included Office apps were not good interfaces, regular x86 apps wouldn't run and most importantly that the idea of Frankensteining a desktop OS to a tablet one was a very bad idea. Noone gets to the app store stage, because noone makes a new .NET app with a touch-friendly interface out of that private corporate app in the first place. If you want a hint which problem MS thinks is the biggest one, take a look at what they're doing in 8.1 - they're doing another of their famous 180s and returning the start button.

Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
I had to manually uninstall some vicious adware in a customer's machine that was embedded in every corner of the OS. On a Mac.

Macs aren't immune - a big part of it is still security through obscurity. People writing malware want to hurt the largest number of people. That by default is not Mac users.
This is unfortunately all too true, but to be honest I would have thought that it would be worse by now.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Aug 19, 2013, 10:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I think its just a question that people are used to it with Windows. If you go to update Flash player on Windows, it asks you if you want McAfee and its ticked by default. Previously IIRC it was Google Toolbar which still seems to install itself with half a dozen other popular free apps.

This sort of thing never spread beyond printer software with Macs. I used to have a little speech when I installed printers onsite for customers where I would say "Here is the CD that comes in the box, and here is where it goes, in the bin."
Luckily even printer makers have started moving towards just "The driver is already bundled with your Mac" or "Just download it from here". No more crapware photo editing software that no-one ever used.

But if people grew used to this in Windows, why hasn't everybody jumped about the money making train on the Mac side? Yes, most Mac apps don't need installers, but if some app/thing were to have its own installer for installing itself and this other crap, this probably wouldn't phase many people at all.
     
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Aug 19, 2013, 11:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
In part because of the lack of installers, but also because so few applications exist for OS X relative to what's out there for Windows.

For instance: I tried to find a standalone Facebook chat client for Windows that wasn't a multiprotocol deal like Pidgin, InstantBird, or Digsby. The only freeware out there was ad-laden, in both the installer and the software itself.

Windows has significantly more users, too, which means that there are simply more idiots using Windows - and those are the people that adware installers target.

Most download sites today use "downloaders" that are difficult or impossible to bypass, and those generally are loaded with adware.
I get that there is less software on the Mac side and more users on the Windows side, but it still seems like it would be incredibly easy to start bundling other things in Mac installers (which you could include with your app/thing even if they are necessary), and it seems like this is one money making opportunity nobody has tapped into yet. I don't think I've *ever* seen this on the Mac, whereas on Windows this seems to happen more often than it doesn't.

What does this even mean?
Reduced performance over time, or corruption of some sort necessitating a Windows reinstall. I honestly can't remember the last time I ever had to install OS X was, it has been years and years and years, even with the shittiest file system in use today.

Apple's not doing it because they're great guys who want to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. They're doing it because it turns out that enforcing godlike control on the operating system is appealing to them. This was pretty clearly demonstrated when they blanketly and irreversibly disabled Java in OS X awhile back, even on enterprise machines. Without permission.
What enterprise machines?

Apple has never gone to great lengths to accommodate enterprise usage, why would they do so now now that their enterprise market is as weak as its ever been?

I had to manually uninstall some vicious adware in a customer's machine that was embedded in every corner of the OS. On a Mac.
What was that? I'm sure it exists, I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious...

Macs aren't immune - a big part of it is still security through obscurity. People writing malware want to hurt the largest number of people. That by default is not Mac users.
I don't completely agree.

I think the whole Windows malware/virus thing has become sort of a copyable culture and business model, back when Microsoft made it super easy to do this via ActiveX and passing on viruses via email, and this business has just sort of stuck around and evolved.

Given that most malware seems to be social engineering based these days and not worms that self propagate, the whole "largest number of people" thing seems less irrelevant, a Mac user can be tricked the same way that anybody else can. Yes, whatever you'd execute would have to work on the Mac, but you could do this via Java or a very crude Mac app if you wanted, providing you could get users to authenticate as necessary. You could make the argument that there aren't enough users to warrant this effort, but given that this effort would be so incredibly minimal, I have to think that we don't see this stuff on the Mac because it really isn't necessary - the malware makers don't have any problem reaching ridiculous numbers of users with their current methods, especially in non-American countries. They probably would be better served producing more schemes than we would extending the reach of any one particular scheme.
     
   
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