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Autonomous vehicles (Page 5)
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Clinically Insane
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Nov 26, 2013, 05:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
So has this become some kind of lecture on life choices or something? I barely commute, I love my job (and I'm damn good at it), and I would get a self-driving car in a goddamn heartbeat. The less control these twats around me have of their vehicle, the better for all mankind.
I dunno, is it? I suppose it can be. I'm fascinated by people, they talk about how they want their lives to be easier, but then purposely make choices that cause them more suffering.

What do you have to lose? A job you dislike, if not hate? A commute you despise? What did you want to be, or what would make you happy? "Not everyone can live their dream." On the contrary, so few people actually try, there's more than enough room for you. Interesting fact. Last year I had hundreds of people ask for money, not charities, people. They wanted handouts, loans, even bribes (screw them). Only 3, however, wanted advice or had an idea on which they desired feedback (I won't steal anyone's ideas, I usually recommend a NDA if it will make them comfortable). Only 1 on those 3 was willing to face risk, or make the changes necessary, for it to happen.

So few people want to steer their own lives, I guess it shouldn't surprise me that so many want their cars to drive for them too.
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Nov 26, 2013, 08:08 AM
 
Annnnnnnnnnnd in a surprising turn of events, a thread about something with which Shaddim disagrees eventually comes around to examples of him having a significant amount of money and being able to dispense wise advice to everyone else in the general population.

Honestly, that is not snark. It is just a general observation of what happens in 90% of threads in which you disagree with a premise.
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Nov 26, 2013, 08:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I dunno, is it? I suppose it can be. I'm fascinated by people, they talk about how they want their lives to be easier, but then purposely make choices that cause them more suffering.
...and that has what to do with self-driving cars exactly?
     
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Nov 26, 2013, 08:55 AM
 
Some people tend to measure their lives by how much money they have, what cars they drive. A very wise man*, who died just after my mother did, told me that we couldn't measure our own success. Its only the generations after your grandchildren that can.

* used car salesman, repo man, bar and hotel owner who went blind due to having the wrong medicine prescribed.
     
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Nov 26, 2013, 09:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Annnnnnnnnnnd in a surprising turn of events, a thread about something with which Shaddim disagrees eventually comes around to examples of him having a significant amount of money and being able to dispense wise advice to everyone else in the general population.

Honestly, that is not snark. It is just a general observation of what happens in 90% of threads in which you disagree with a premise.
Don't forget the surprisingly applicable but completely unverifiable anecdote about a relative, friend, or secret famous person that completely backs up his view.
     
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Nov 26, 2013, 09:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Annnnnnnnnnnd in a surprising turn of events, a thread about something with which Shaddim disagrees eventually comes around to examples of him having a significant amount of money and being able to dispense wise advice to everyone else in the general population.

Honestly, that is not snark. It is just a general observation of what happens in 90% of threads in which you disagree with a premise.
I wasn't the one who brought up wealth, that was BLAZE;

Some of us realize we aren't cut out to / have the connections to make crazy amounts of money.
Because we're not beautiful, lucky, connected, or rich.
but please continue, I'll shoulder the blame this time. Likely it'll do you some good and I don't care one way or the other. One of my biggest faults, I have many, is thinking someone wants advice when they start griping. I need to learn that when they grouse about crap in their lives, they aren't actually looking to make any changes, they just enjoy complaining.
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Nov 26, 2013, 09:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
Some people tend to measure their lives by how much money they have, what cars they drive. A very wise man*, who died just after my mother did, told me that we couldn't measure our own success. Its only the generations after your grandchildren that can.

* used car salesman, repo man, bar and hotel owner who went blind due to having the wrong medicine prescribed.
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Don't forget the surprisingly applicable but completely unverifiable anecdote about a relative, friend, or secret famous person that completely backs up his view.
Keep going, this is good. Although, matty, people on here make more of a "thing" about my money than I do, but it's good, because having it is still new to me and I need to build up more callous over this. One thing, I was specifically talking about people who are successful in what they do (like my mechanic), they love it, they feel complete, it wasn't about how much they make. I can give other examples, if you'd like to hear about them?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Nov 26, 2013, 09:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Keep going, this is good. Although, matty, people on here make more of a "thing" about my money than I do,
No one else brings up your wealth in just about every single thread, whether directly or indirectly.
     
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Nov 26, 2013, 09:52 AM
 
Ha!

I, too, want an anonymous vehicle. Dark windows, nondescript license plates, whatever they got.
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
     
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Nov 26, 2013, 10:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
No one else brings up your wealth in just about every single thread, whether directly or indirectly.
Since most of those are <$200 watches (many are yard sale finds), most I've had for >10 years, I can only assume you read more into that than was intended. The thread itself is about a reasonably affordable watch...
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Nov 26, 2013, 10:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
One of my biggest faults, I have many, is thinking someone wants advice when they start griping. I need to learn that when they grouse about crap in their lives, they aren't actually looking to make any changes, they just enjoy complaining.
You sound like you are a fixer, as am I. I hear a problem and itch to fix it. What I have had to learn, and I was told this many times before I did, is that sometimes people don't want a solution, or advice. They want a good listener, they want commiseration. It may not be that they enjoy complaining, but they are looking validation of their complaint. Chances are, they might even already know the solution and just can't deal with it right then... and they don't want someone being all know-it-all at them, at least until they are done venting. It is very hard.

(see, I just did it again, maybe you weren't even asking for advice, or a solution! )
     
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Nov 26, 2013, 12:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
You sound like you are a fixer, as am I. I hear a problem and itch to fix it. What I have had to learn, and I was told this many times before I did, is that sometimes people don't want a solution, or advice. They want a good listener, they want commiseration. It may not be that they enjoy complaining, but they are looking validation of their complaint. Chances are, they might even already know the solution and just can't deal with it right then... and they don't want someone being all know-it-all at them, at least until they are done venting. It is very hard.

(see, I just did it again, maybe you weren't even asking for advice, or a solution! )
Oh, that's fine, I've always (well, mostly) appreciated earnest advice or criticism. One issue I have is when a person uses a part of their own life, that they find undesirable, as a point in a discussion. Then they become irritable when the other person suggests there's a remedy for the problem. They shouldn't bring it to the table if they don't want it examined.

There's something to the concept of the Internet Divide, online there's at least an order of magnitude more hostility and aggression than in the real world, and I don't think that speaks well of society in its current state.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Nov 26, 2013, 02:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
You sound like you are a fixer, as am I. I hear a problem and itch to fix it. What I have had to learn, and I was told this many times before I did, is that sometimes people don't want a solution, or advice. They want a good listener, they want commiseration. It may not be that they enjoy complaining, but they are looking validation of their complaint. Chances are, they might even already know the solution and just can't deal with it right then... and they don't want someone being all know-it-all at them, at least until they are done venting. It is very hard.

(see, I just did it again, maybe you weren't even asking for advice, or a solution! )
Just so (general) you understand, venting may make you feel better, but generally makes the world a worse place.

I'm not here to listen to your monologue. Talk with me not at me. If you're looking for a solution, I'm your guy. If you feel there is no solution, then STFU already. You're taking advantage of people by using them as an ennui sink.
     
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Nov 26, 2013, 02:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
There's something to the concept of the Internet Divide, online there's at least an order of magnitude more hostility and aggression than in the real world, and I don't think that speaks well of society in its current state.
I fully ascribe to the Greater Internet ****wad Theory.

Anonymity + Audience = Total ****wad


Society is the same it always was.
     
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Nov 26, 2013, 02:59 PM
 
Empty platitudes about self-realization have nothing to do with the topic of the viability of a self-driving car.

We get it, you'll never need or want one, but tens of millions of people will and it isn't because they lack the drive to make proper life decisions. We've been buying things to make our lives easier since the concept of ownership was invented. The car does not equal freedom if your only interaction with it is to get to places. Just because an automatic Honda Civic doesn't excite that tingly bit behind your penis doesn't mean those who buy it are locked into some pathetic existence, maybe they just want a cheap reliable thing to get them to where they need to go.
     
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Nov 26, 2013, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm not here to listen to your monologue. Talk with me not at me. If you're looking for a solution, I'm your guy. If you feel there is no solution, then STFU already. You're taking advantage of people by using them as an ennui sink.
I'm with you on many respects, but IRL:

[HR Manager] Mr. Subego, we need to talk about your attitude and ability to work with others in a team environment.
     
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Nov 26, 2013, 06:10 PM
 
That ****ing sitch.
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 12:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Indeed, I don't know what you're arguing about there. There will be fewer lawsuits, but they'll still exist, I already said that.
Yes, but WHY did you say it? (Or why did Turtle say it and you enthusiastically jumped on turtle's bandwagon?) There's an obvious answer, that you're pulling a maneuver made classic by people who troll for attention, which is to make a statement with a clear implication and then take umbrage with assumptions that you support the implication. I'm not accusing you of that, I'm asking what is it if it's not that. Subego and I have both asked you to come clean about why you took up the lawsuit banner if it's not for the purposes of trolling. The more times you decide to ignore the question, the more it seems like maybe it is just trolling after all.


The part that followed.
I don't think you understood my question. What's wrong with there being no market for skydiving insurance?



Which I explained, new cars aren't enjoyable to operate, they're boring. You saw the part where I explained driving enjoyment dropped as cars became easier to operate?
s/correlation/causality/
It could as easily be that drivers inevitably outgrew their child-like fascination with driving, and that changing demand is what caused car-makers to react with more appliance-like products. I certainly understand it: when I first learned to drive, driving was exciting. Even driving a used-up minivan was exciting. Then I grew up, and I got over it. Now I drive for pleasure, but not on 4 wheels. On the other hand, this is still relatively new to me too, and I may well simply outgrow that too with time.

Your presumed causality that humanity in general tired of cars because of changing trends in cars, doesn't fit with the individual who learns to drive on the same era of cars that they later tire of. But my explanation still fits it, that driver ennui causes boring products rather than vice versa.



This race is becoming consumers and users in every sense of those words. It's sad to see.
In what way is a stick-shift driver anything other than a consumer or a user?

And first you derided anyone being "productive," and now you're attacking "consumer and user," so how exactly does someone please you without doing either of these?


"The people have spoken! The people have spoken!" Yeah, but the problem is, "the people" are idiots.
Unless the poll results happen to agree with your bias?



and your strawman is old and weathered. I partition my time accordingly, I don't spend all day screwing around with phones, tablets, etc.. People can't consume in "reasonable" amounts, they gorge on all they can, then wait for adverse symptoms to occur. Driving a stick is fun, once you learn the nuances involved, and it takes skill to master, however most people today (mostly young people) lack the patience to learn such a skill. It doesn't come easy, and if it isn't easy it's considered "old and complicated".
That's what Linux guys say about people who want their software to "just work," without the need for constant tinkering and experimenting. I don't find their reasoning very compelling, nor yours. Anything that functions as a tool for the accomplishment of other activities, is ripe for becoming more reliable, transparent, automated, and losing its cache of mystery and wizardry. Cars and computers are in this category, and notably skydiving et al are not.


Again, back to people being lazy primates who gravitate to easy, to the detriment of all else. I care because it's yet another activity that doesn't involve only thumbs (like texting and video games) that's being swept away in the name of "progress". I'm sorry, what humanity is becoming isn't progress, it's social, mental, and physical regression.
(Again,) The distinction between touchscreen and mechanical expertise is less relevant than the distinction between a tool and a toy. Not whether you prefer to use it as a tool or a toy, but whether it is even possible to use it as a tool. If the device in question is a tool with which millions achieve other things, then "progress" is just something you'll have to learn to accept. Sorry.



I see now, and I expected that answer from you. Like the growing population with the same proclivity, you're exchanging control and a greater possibility of freedom for simplicity and comfort.
Not at all. I don't want comfort, I want transparency. I want the mechanics of driving to be as intrusive to my life as electricity or running water is. Having running water "just work" isn't about comfort, it's about transparency. People do lots of things that contradict your characterization of "comfort," like working out, chopping wood, building furniture from scratch, or doing their own car repairs. But all these people expect running water to be automatic, and they raise holy hell if it doesn't "just work" without them even having to think about it. There may be some plumbing nerds, who get their enjoyment from tinkering with their plumbing the way Linux guys tinker with their laptops. But that doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't happen to find their bliss in the ins and outs of running water is a lethargic comfort-obsessed simpleton living in a numbed lifeless 'bubble." All it means is that running water is one of those tools that are useful (nay, necessary) for many other aspects of a complete life.


Pay attention to the world outside, not just "cyberspace"; take the wheel, turn off GPS, and go other places on a whim, interact with physical life, metaphorically that's what living is about.
That's one of the big benefits of the self-driving car! You can finally watch the scenery instead of having your eyes glued to the street. You can finally get exhausted hiking or playing sports, without risking falling asleep at the wheel on the way home and orphaning your teammates. We've been servants to our cars for 100 years now, by necessity, and now we might finally have the chance to pay attention to the world outside our cars instead of them monopolizing our attention.
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 01:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
Yes, but WHY did you say it? (Or why did Turtle say it and you enthusiastically jumped on turtle's bandwagon?) There's an obvious answer, that you're pulling a maneuver made classic by people who troll for attention, which is to make a statement with a clear implication and then take umbrage with assumptions that you support the implication. I'm not accusing you of that, I'm asking what is it if it's not that. Subego and I have both asked you to come clean about why you took up the lawsuit banner if it's not for the purposes of trolling. The more times you decide to ignore the question, the more it seems like maybe it is just trolling after all.
Oh, so it's the point in the conversation when you start name-calling? If so, then go fark yourself, Francis. If you're going to continue crying about me saying there will still be lawsuits, then go to the bathroom and use a warm towel instead of jerking it out here. There will be fewer incidents, with 99.9% surety, if and when autonomous cars are approved by the DoT (which is notorious for dragging their feet with new tech for vehicles) but they won't entirely disappear. I'm not repeating that again, BTW.

I don't think you understood my question. What's wrong with there being no market for skydiving insurance?
There is a market for it, it simply isn't offered.

s/correlation/causality/
It could as easily be that drivers inevitably outgrew their child-like fascination with driving, and that changing demand is what caused car-makers to react with more appliance-like products. I certainly understand it: when I first learned to drive, driving was exciting. Even driving a used-up minivan was exciting. Then I grew up, and I got over it. Now I drive for pleasure, but not on 4 wheels. On the other hand, this is still relatively new to me too, and I may well simply outgrow that too with time.

Your presumed causality that humanity in general tired of cars because of changing trends in cars, doesn't fit with the individual who learns to drive on the same era of cars that they later tire of. But my explanation still fits it, that driver ennui causes boring products rather than vice versa.
Yes, it does. Driving cars now is more like a video game, lifeless. Might as well play those than get into real driving.

Everyone's different, I've been driving longer than you and still enjoy it as much now, if not more, than when I was a "kid". It comes down to the toys available.

In what way is a stick-shift driver anything other than a consumer or a user?
They aren't just the squishy lump between the front and rear bumpers, they're interacting with the car, not just sitting around waiting to get somewhere.

And first you derided anyone being "productive," and now you're attacking "consumer and user," so how exactly does someone please you without doing either of these?
"Anyone being productive"? No, I said there are times for productivity in various areas, squeezing that in while you're operating a 2+ ton vehicle isn't necessarily one of those times.

Unless the poll results happen to agree with your bias?
Sometimes "the people" are correct, even a busted clock is right twice a day.

That's what Linux guys say about people who want their software to "just work," without the need for constant tinkering and experimenting. I don't find their reasoning very compelling, nor yours. Anything that functions as a tool for the accomplishment of other activities, is ripe for becoming more reliable, transparent, automated, and losing its cache of mystery and wizardry. Cars and computers are in this category, and notably skydiving et al are not.
Cars aren't computers, although they have them now (though they were more fun before they had them). Tech made for the express purpose of turning useless lumps into bigger lumps isn't what I consider an "advancement". But hey, if it's available, you go for it, I'll likely pass (and so will other enthusiasts). I'm up on modern tech and know how to use it, but I don't rely on it to the exclusion of other pursuits and interests, and that's one of our main social problems.

(Again,) The distinction between touchscreen and mechanical expertise is less relevant than the distinction between a tool and a toy. Not whether you prefer to use it as a tool or a toy, but whether it is even possible to use it as a tool. If the device in question is a tool with which millions achieve other things, then "progress" is just something you'll have to learn to accept. Sorry.
Why "sorry"? I don't have to use it. We're making good progress towards Asimov's predictions (not necessarily AI tech, but it's very possible) and all civilizations collapse, in time. Once we as a society have forgotten how to do anything without assistance, and when (not if) technology fails, there will be a human mass extinction, and not entirely do to war, plague, or famine, but because generations of button-pressing, flabby users don't know how to do anything without it. Hell, without Wikipedia around, they won't even know how to access information. "Weren't there things called libraries and books at one time?" "They were deemed redundant and a waste of resources, so they were recycled."

Not at all. I don't want comfort, I want transparency. I want the mechanics of driving to be as intrusive to my life as electricity or running water is. Having running water "just work" isn't about comfort, it's about transparency. People do lots of things that contradict your characterization of "comfort," like working out, chopping wood, building furniture from scratch, or doing their own car repairs. But all these people expect running water to be automatic, and they raise holy hell if it doesn't "just work" without them even having to think about it. There may be some plumbing nerds, who get their enjoyment from tinkering with their plumbing the way Linux guys tinker with their laptops. But that doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't happen to find their bliss in the ins and outs of running water is a lethargic comfort-obsessed simpleton living in a numbed lifeless 'bubble." All it means is that running water is one of those tools that are useful (nay, necessary) for many other aspects of a complete life.
No they don't, all physical labor and activities are losing popularity (exercise has been on a precipitous drop over the last 10 years), and new cars don't allow owner repairs, they're designed for dealer service only (it even voids your warranty if you try), sorry. Fat simpletons in bubbles of comfort, I like that, it defines where we're headed.

That's one of the big benefits of the self-driving car! You can finally watch the scenery instead of having your eyes glued to the street. You can finally get exhausted hiking or playing sports, without risking falling asleep at the wheel on the way home and orphaning your teammates. We've been servants to our cars for 100 years now, by necessity, and now we might finally have the chance to pay attention to the world outside our cars instead of them monopolizing our attention.
No, they'll watch their texting devices and play Bejeweled, like lab mice wailing away on a button to get another treat. "No they won't!" With obesity at over 27%, and the percentage of people overweight at almost 36% now, you really think people won't take the easiest way?

I'm not sure where you were going with the Linux thing, either, since the top-shelf builds of it are as plug & play as any other desktop OS, now.
( Last edited by Shaddim; Nov 27, 2013 at 05:08 AM. Reason: Grammar)
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Nov 27, 2013, 01:46 AM
 
lmao - this is too funny!
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 01:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Empty platitudes about self-realization have nothing to do with the topic of the viability of a self-driving car.

We get it, you'll never need or want one, but tens of millions of people will and it isn't because they lack the drive to make proper life decisions. We've been buying things to make our lives easier since the concept of ownership was invented. The car does not equal freedom if your only interaction with it is to get to places. Just because an automatic Honda Civic doesn't excite that tingly bit behind your penis doesn't mean those who buy it are locked into some pathetic existence, maybe they just want a cheap reliable thing to get them to where they need to go.
You do what you want, sunshine, I will too.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Nov 27, 2013, 01:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I fully ascribe to the Greater Internet ****wad Theory.

Anonymity + Audience = Total ****wad


Society is the same it always was.
Indeed, I'm seeing the nasty end of internet behavior, right here. Aggressive, angry that you don't agree with them, indignant when you make a retort.

"You answer with what I want to hear!"
Yeah, I'll get right on that...
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Nov 27, 2013, 09:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Oh, so it's the point in the conversation when you start name-calling?
What name-calling? The only thing I ever called anyone was luddite, and it was perfectly apt. Turtle's post was satisfying the dictionary definition perfectly, by opposing a technology using no logical basis. You yourself have confirmed this to be true, by agreeing that turtle's only stated rationalization, lawsuits, would actually be an improvement under the proposed new paradigm. That's not name-calling, that's using language to accurately convey ideas.


I'm not repeating that again, BTW.
Good. Repetition is no substitute for clarification, and you have been providing the former when asked only for the latter.



There is a market for it, it simply isn't offered.
There's a market for time-machines, too, but they simply aren't offered. Please explain why something unfeasible not being offered is supposed to be considered an aberration rather than the system functioning perfectly normally.


Yes, it does. Driving cars now is more like a video game, lifeless.
Because consumers wanted that. Thank you.


Yes, it does. Driving cars now is more like a video game, lifeless. Might as well play those than get into real driving.
Hahaha! Yeah I could save tons of money too if I sold my car and started driving my x-box to work! It's win-win


Might as well play those than get into real driving.
I can only imagine what your reaction is going to be when next-gen video games make use of the force-feedback possibilities of integrating with the self-driving car, so that it's actually optimal to play driving games while you're riding around in your self-driving car


Everyone's different, I've been driving longer than you and still enjoy it as much now, if not more, than when I was a "kid". It comes down to the toys available.
Then wouldn't the majority (who lack the toys available to you) be perfectly rational and shrewd for valuing appliance transportation over adventure sports?



They aren't just the squishy lump between the front and rear bumpers, they're interacting with the car, not just sitting around waiting to get somewhere.
Your logic fails to distinguish between conditions. Facebook zombies are interacting with the medium too (that's the defining feature of web 2.0). Why is single-minded attention to hardware minutia more admirable than single-minded attention to software or social minutia?



"Anyone being productive"? No, I said there are times for productivity in various areas, squeezing that in while you're operating a 2+ ton vehicle isn't necessarily one of those times.
So it's not the time for productivity because we are preoccupied controlling the vehicle, and the reason we choose to be occupied controlling the vehicle is because that's not the time for productivity? That reasoning is circular. Alleviating the need to control the vehicle at all, regardless of timing, solves both problems, and increases the total time available for productivity or leisure (of any chosen type, not a narrowly restricted subtype of leisure).



Sometimes "the people" are correct, even a busted clock is right twice a day.
You know, a clock that runs backwards is right 25 times a day



Tech made for the express purpose of turning useless lumps into bigger lumps isn't what I consider an "advancement". But hey, if it's available, you go for it, I'll likely pass (and so will other enthusiasts).
Interestingly, you and your enthusiast compatriots will still benefit from this "advancement," because the most dangerous drivers (those least interested in driving and being alert to traffic) will be the most likely to subscribe and thereby be removed from the larger safety equation. The roads in general will become safer, starting with the weakest links.



Why "sorry"? I don't have to use it.
Then why post in this thread? Obviously it affects you somehow, or you wouldn't be here.



No they don't, all physical labor and activities are losing popularity (exercise has been on a precipitous drop over the last 10 years)
As both your premise and your conclusion, that is circular reasoning. If we don't presume your conclusion, then there is some population not averse to physical labor or activities, and in order to support your conclusion you would have to address whether they embrace or shun technological advances that made the tedious transparent (eg water, electricity, hvac, food, shelter, communication, and yes transportation; do all weight lifters drive a stick?) yes, infantile joke appreciated



With obesity at over 27%, and the percentage of people overweight at almost 36% now, you really think people won't take the easiest way?
You're still playing fast and loose with cause and effect. Do you really think that driving habits will make any difference on obesity either way? Making driving transparent won't turn a lean person fat. If anything, it would open a number of possibilities far more active than the status quo of sitting perfectly still and staring at all the other cars on the road.


I'm not sure where you were going with the Linux thing, either, since the top-shelf builds of it are as plug & play as any other desktop OS, now.
Can you name one? I'd like to try it.
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 10:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Indeed, I'm seeing the nasty end of internet behavior, right here. Aggressive, angry that you don't agree with them, indignant when you make a retort.
I think the main problem is that you're reading nastiness into things where none exists.

The opposite of nastiness is acceptance (not of ideas necessarily, but of posture). IRL this is done by using mirroring, by adopting the same mannerisms, phrases, cadence, posture, and style as the person you're talking with. This builds a connection and is generally considered good manners. Your posts and turtle's have been as aggressive as any other, starting with the opening volley, and replies-in-kind are not nastiness, they're mirroring, doing what any good mannered person would do who wants to engage and join the discussion. By mirroring, they are declaring your post valid, and deserving of an in-kind reply. If you're not comfortable seeing an aggressive post as anything other than hostile, then maybe try not using aggression in your own posts.
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 11:28 AM
 
I'm still waiting for those nostradamus cars - they know where you want to go.
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Nov 27, 2013, 01:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
I'm still waiting for those nostradamus cars - they know where you want to go.
"This is Russ Riesinger reporting for channel 3 news Savannah as we enter day 5 of whats been labeled The Exodus. I-95 continues to be backed up from Jacksonville to Richmond as seeming half the cars in the country clog the highways. Today we have with us CEO Elon Musk from Tesla Motors to provide some insight into this phenomena."
"Hello Russ, We've been looking into this for several days and from the remote diagnostics we think we've determined the cause. Last week Google rolled out an update to their navigation service that predicts your next destination based on your user profile."
"How does this explain whats going on?"
"We'll it appears that men actually want to sitting on a beach in the tropics."
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 05:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
You do what you want, sunshine, I will too.
There's that condescension we all know and love.

Care to say anything with substance about self driving cars?
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 05:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Indeed, I'm seeing the nasty end of internet behavior, right here. Aggressive, angry that you don't agree with them, indignant when you make a retort.

"You answer with what I want to hear!"
Yeah, I'll get right on that...
I'm certainly not a card carrying member of some anti-Shaddim club, during LPKs little stint with a different name I actually defended you. Problem is in this thread you've done nothing but assert yourself as an expert with nothing to back it up. That pisses people off.
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 06:00 PM
 
LPK had a different nick?

What was it? I so suck at this game.
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 06:02 PM
 
Raleur, he tried his hand at some Colombo-style detective work to out Shaddim as a fraud.
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 06:08 PM
 
Oh. I remember that accusation. Was there something definitive which sealed it?
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 06:11 PM
 
He seemed to immediately disappear after said accusation, and LPK returned shortly thereafter. It won't hold up in court but it's good enough for me. Why would some new forum member manufacture such an attack and go as far as to PM people, myself included, about his plan?
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 06:13 PM
 
Well, if true. That's all a shame.
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 08:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
What name-calling? The only thing I ever called anyone was luddite, and it was perfectly apt. Turtle's post was satisfying the dictionary definition perfectly, by opposing a technology using no logical basis. You yourself have confirmed this to be true, by agreeing that turtle's only stated rationalization, lawsuits, would actually be an improvement under the proposed new paradigm. That's not name-calling, that's using language to accurately convey ideas.
You're going to ignore beating around the bush to call me a troll? Playing dumb over that is ridiculous.

Good. Repetition is no substitute for clarification, and you have been providing the former when asked only for the latter.
I did clarify, trying to bully me into giving you the answer you want was getting monotonous.

There's a market for time-machines, too, but they simply aren't offered. Please explain why something unfeasible not being offered is supposed to be considered an aberration rather than the system functioning perfectly normally.
AFAIK, moving backwards in time isn't possible, or probable, however 1000s of people each day enjoy skydiving. That's a substantial number of people who engage in an activity that's uninsurable, and altogether nullifies insurance in many cases.

Because consumers wanted that. Thank you.
They also like fast food at most every meal. A person can be very smart, but "people" are typically slow, shiftless animals.

Hahaha! Yeah I could save tons of money too if I sold my car and started driving my x-box to work! It's win-win
The new ones handle the same and are dumbed-down to be as simple, so essentially most people are.

I can only imagine what your reaction is going to be when next-gen video games make use of the force-feedback possibilities of integrating with the self-driving car, so that it's actually optimal to play driving games while you're riding around in your self-driving car
Why would the geography be any different?

Then wouldn't the majority (who lack the toys available to you) be perfectly rational and shrewd for valuing appliance transportation over adventure sports?
I'm not talking adventure sports, just a more mindful attitude while, well, doing pretty much anything. I've seen too many folks walk into polls while texting to believe that humanity is still evolving, frankly it seems more like regression to me.

Your logic fails to distinguish between conditions. Facebook zombies are interacting with the medium too (that's the defining feature of web 2.0). Why is single-minded attention to hardware minutia more admirable than single-minded attention to software or social minutia?
One involves problem solving and situational awareness while interacting with the actual environment, the other, while superficially entertaining at times, isn't. If the power is unplugged, the latter disappears and could potentially be gone entirely, the former doesn't. Creation in physical media stimulates and enhances the mind and body, while leaving a lasting result. Virtual media is transient. I used to play WoW (World of Warcraft) a great deal, until it actually sunk in that I was spending what amounted to months building sandcastles on a beach before the tide rolled in. The interim activity was fun, but investing that much time for an intangible result was illogical.

So it's not the time for productivity because we are preoccupied controlling the vehicle, and the reason we choose to be occupied controlling the vehicle is because that's not the time for productivity? That reasoning is circular. Alleviating the need to control the vehicle at all, regardless of timing, solves both problems, and increases the total time available for productivity or leisure (of any chosen type, not a narrowly restricted subtype of leisure).
I'm saying that society is bulldozing a very worthwhile activity, that's quite physically and mentally engaging, for more leisure time and button-pressing. Driving a stick isn't going to make you fit, but it won't lead to an erosion of mental and physical fitness, either. What really bothers me is that people aren't actually learning how to do anything physical anymore.

Interestingly, you and your enthusiast compatriots will still benefit from this "advancement," because the most dangerous drivers (those least interested in driving and being alert to traffic) will be the most likely to subscribe and thereby be removed from the larger safety equation. The roads in general will become safer, starting with the weakest links.
I've admitted it's safer, but I'm not convinced it's better, as humanity slowly forgets how to do anything themselves.

Then why post in this thread? Obviously it affects you somehow, or you wouldn't be here.
Because I'm concerned with where society is going, not just how they get there.

As both your premise and your conclusion, that is circular reasoning. If we don't presume your conclusion, then there is some population not averse to physical labor or activities, and in order to support your conclusion you would have to address whether they embrace or shun technological advances that made the tedious transparent.
Long division is tedious and useless to know, unless you need to do some and don't have a working calculator. Too many things do too much for humanity already.

You're still playing fast and loose with cause and effect. Do you really think that driving habits will make any difference on obesity either way? Making driving transparent won't turn a lean person fat. If anything, it would open a number of possibilities far more active than the status quo of sitting perfectly still and staring at all the other cars on the road.
I don't ascribe to anyone sitting in traffic like that, I'd sooner ride a bicycle, or even walk. When I lived in LA I rode a bike practically everywhere. As I said before, I wouldn't place myself in a situation where I have a bumper-to-bumper half hour or more commute. To me, that's evidence of improper life planning, and if it makes you miserable then make a change (sooner rather than later).

Can you name one? I'd like to try it.
Xubuntu is crazy simple to install and use.
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Nov 27, 2013, 08:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
There's that condescension we all know and love.

Care to say anything with substance about self driving cars?
Just feeding it back to you, bud. I tend to become flippant when others turn aggressive.
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Nov 27, 2013, 08:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Well, if true. That's all a shame.
What's a shame is he went as far as to get into my Gmail account I use for this site, if that's correct, and that's not nice.
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Nov 27, 2013, 08:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I'm certainly not a card carrying member of some anti-Shaddim club, during LPKs little stint with a different name I actually defended you. Problem is in this thread you've done nothing but assert yourself as an expert with nothing to back it up. That pisses people off.
My assertion is that humanity is becoming (has become) a collection of useless blobs, and if you take their tech away, what can most of them do?
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Nov 27, 2013, 09:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
My assertion is that humanity is becoming (has become) a collection of useless blobs, and if you take their tech away, what can most of them do?
Thats not really a problem. If you take the technology away there are too many of us. Self correcting.
     
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Nov 27, 2013, 11:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Thats not really a problem. If you take the technology away there are too many of us. Self correcting.
That's what I was talking about with the mass extinction comment earlier.
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Nov 28, 2013, 04:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
"This is Russ Riesinger reporting for channel 3 news Savannah as we enter day 5 of whats been labeled The Exodus. I-95 continues to be backed up from Jacksonville to Richmond as seeming half the cars in the country clog the highways. Today we have with us CEO Elon Musk from Tesla Motors to provide some insight into this phenomena."
"Hello Russ, We've been looking into this for several days and from the remote diagnostics we think we've determined the cause. Last week Google rolled out an update to their navigation service that predicts your next destination based on your user profile."
"How does this explain whats going on?"
"We'll it appears that men actually want to sitting on a beach in the tropics."
Ha!
I wouldn't be surprised if Google already has that service for beta testers.
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
     
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Dec 2, 2013, 10:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I did clarify...
I'm sure you believe you did, but I'm also sure that no one besides you even knows what words you're referring to, let alone what you meant by them. Just please humor me, with a clean slate, what is the relevance of the lawsuit subtopic, and under what implication was it logical for anyone bring it up?



AFAIK, moving backwards in time isn't possible, or probable, however 1000s of people each day enjoy skydiving. That's a substantial number of people who engage in an activity that's uninsurable, and altogether nullifies insurance in many cases.
I didn't know what point you were trying to make with bringing insurance into it, and I still don't. Either you're implying that insurance should NOT be offered for leisure driving, or you're implying that insurance SHOULD be offered for skydiving, or you're pointing out that skydiving and leisure driving are not comparable. In none of those cases is it relevant to the fact that the very few people who drive more for leisure than for utility will still only benefit (not be harmed) by the adoption of self-driving cars (by others, and even by themselves for the 1% of the time when they need to hire a self-driving ride to the airport or to purchase a manually driven vehicle and drive said vehicle home).


Why would the geography be any different?
Not the geography, the (user's) momentum (mass x velocity). A game user who's riding in a car can have their momentum leveraged to interact with the game (with small coordinated adjustments to the car's steering and braking), assuming there are no other humans in the car that this would antagonize. But a game user with no velocity has no momentum.



I'm not talking adventure sports, just a more mindful attitude while, well, doing pretty much anything. I've seen too many folks walk into polls while texting to believe that humanity is still evolving, frankly it seems more like regression to me.
Automation is part of evolution, even of the arbitrarily restricted subset of evolution we think of as "progress". That's why we don't consciously think about all the dozens of individual muscle contractions it takes to walk, breathe, or smile; we just rely on our automated neural networks that evolved to abstract these behaviors.



One involves problem solving and situational awareness while interacting with the actual environment, the other, while superficially entertaining at times, isn't. If the power is unplugged, the latter disappears and could potentially be gone entirely, the former doesn't.
That's a pretty contrived distinction. If the oil is unplugged, then your mechanics expertise would be just as useless. There are more ways to make electricity than to make gasoline.


Creation in physical media stimulates and enhances the mind and body, while leaving a lasting result.
Another advantage of self-driving cars! Now we'll be able to create hundreds of different kinds of physical media during previously-constricted travel time. Knitting, woodworking, drawing, painting, writing, cooking, and chemistry experiments are all hobbies that people do in pursuit of creating physical media and enjoying the physical skills of past eras. If people have time to do them, of course, in between the times when they're required to do the thing that just happens to be your hobby


I'm saying that society is bulldozing a very worthwhile activity, that's quite physically and mentally engaging, for more leisure time and button-pressing. Driving a stick isn't going to make you fit, but it won't lead to an erosion of mental and physical fitness, either. What really bothers me is that people aren't actually learning how to do anything physical anymore.
It sounds like your complaint is perfectly suited to the transition to modern heating systems from the wood-burning stove. Chopping wood was great exercise, it took skill to both chop and heat using this technology, both of which offer a core usefulness in any self-sufficiency or natural disaster scenario, and honestly it's one of a short list of activities that I would be happy doing 24/7 for the rest of my life. But for perspective, is it logical to resent anything about the erosion of the wood-burning stove due to clearly superior technologies (gas, electric, even coal)? I don't see how. You decried hard-core gaming as "illogical," but you're being just as illogical yourself by resisting the adoption of unambiguously superior technologies, even when measured with a purely utilitarian yardstick and ignoring comfort and convenience in addition to just entertainment metrics.


I've admitted it's safer, but I'm not convinced it's better, as humanity slowly forgets how to do anything themselves.
That's really the key question, isn't it, and it deserves more than just oblique references. Do you refuse to use a microwave because you might forget how to use a range, or do you refuse to use a gas/electric range because you might forget how to build a fire, chop wood, or fell a tree? Do you refuse to use matches because you might forget how to make a spark using flint/steel, a bow, or a magnifying glass? For that matter, is steel not a better technology than iron or bronze, because we might forget how to make due without alloys? What about cars in general, are they worse because we forgot how to ride a horse effectively? And are saddles worse because they allowed us to forget the ability to ride bare-back?

I agree that skills and independence are important, but in my opinion any notion of "better" that includes the atrophy of coping mechanisms we developed just from lacking that technology, is a judgement on the user not on the technology. The technology is unquestioningly "better." The user still has the option of "bettering" him/herself by learning to use both new (better) and old (worse) technologies. What do you think?



Because I'm concerned with where society is going, not just how they get there.
Then that's why "sorry"


Long division is tedious and useless to know, unless you need to do some and don't have a working calculator. Too many things do too much for humanity already.
Long division hasn't become a lost art, despite ubiquitous calculators making division a transparent convenience, so your following statement is undermined by your own example.



I don't ascribe to anyone sitting in traffic like that, I'd sooner ride a bicycle, or even walk. When I lived in LA I rode a bike practically everywhere. As I said before, I wouldn't place myself in a situation where I have a bumper-to-bumper half hour or more commute. To me, that's evidence of improper life planning, and if it makes you miserable then make a change (sooner rather than later).
That's the "let them eat cake" argument, and it's not valid. The vast majority either lack that degree of command over their work or housing situation, or they live in climates that prevent out-door travel for much of the year (without arriving in a state so slovenly that they would be unfit for their job).

I bike too, so I get where you're coming from. I'm just not out-of-touch enough to think that everyone has the same "cake"-options that I do if they wish to forgo "bread". It might be because I don't have as much "cake" as you do, and I still need "bread" to do many things, like go to the airport, buy furniture or lumber or groceries (sometimes), or on days when I don't have the extra 40 minutes it takes to travel by "cake" than by "bread"



Xubuntu is crazy simple to install and use.
I've tried it, and in order to use software to do things, I still had to tinker (and eg waking from sleep was not supported, which is something I'm surely not alone in considering a core functionality).
     
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Dec 2, 2013, 11:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Why would some new forum member manufacture such an attack and go as far as to PM people, myself included, about his plan?
What? Haha, wow


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
My assertion is that humanity is becoming (has become) a collection of useless blobs, and if you take their tech away, what can most of them do?
What is it you want them to do? That how the advance of civilization and technology works. Less people are needed to do the required tasks, allowing the rest to work and explore other areas.
     
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Dec 2, 2013, 10:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
I'm sure you believe you did, but I'm also sure that no one besides you even knows what words you're referring to, let alone what you meant by them. Just please humor me, with a clean slate, what is the relevance of the lawsuit subtopic, and under what implication was it logical for anyone bring it up?
We were talking about how lawsuits would still exist, pretty much all of us agreed on that, then you jumped in and started yelling about it.

I didn't know what point you were trying to make with bringing insurance into it, and I still don't. Either you're implying that insurance should NOT be offered for leisure driving, or you're implying that insurance SHOULD be offered for skydiving, or you're pointing out that skydiving and leisure driving are not comparable. In none of those cases is it relevant to the fact that the very few people who drive more for leisure than for utility will still only benefit (not be harmed) by the adoption of self-driving cars (by others, and even by themselves for the 1% of the time when they need to hire a self-driving ride to the airport or to purchase a manually driven vehicle and drive said vehicle home).
I'm saying insurance companies will treat self-drivers like skydivers, deem the activity is too risky to insure, or make it so expensive that you need to be a multi-millionaire (and self-insured) to do it. That's already happening with plane pilots, and I don't even want to go into helo insurance, it's outrageous.

Not the geography, the (user's) momentum (mass x velocity). A game user who's riding in a car can have their momentum leveraged to interact with the game (with small coordinated adjustments to the car's steering and braking), assuming there are no other humans in the car that this would antagonize. But a game user with no velocity has no momentum.
I can't see the DoT getting on board with that.

Automation is part of evolution, even of the arbitrarily restricted subset of evolution we think of as "progress". That's why we don't consciously think about all the dozens of individual muscle contractions it takes to walk, breathe, or smile; we just rely on our automated neural networks that evolved to abstract these behaviors.
and they don't work very well, people need to pay attention to where they're going.

That's a pretty contrived distinction. If the oil is unplugged, then your mechanics expertise would be just as useless. There are more ways to make electricity than to make gasoline.
The engine doesn't just disappear, however, you simply put more oil in it.

Another advantage of self-driving cars! Now we'll be able to create hundreds of different kinds of physical media during previously-constricted travel time. Knitting, woodworking, drawing, painting, writing, cooking, and chemistry experiments are all hobbies that people do in pursuit of creating physical media and enjoying the physical skills of past eras. If people have time to do them, of course, in between the times when they're required to do the thing that just happens to be your hobby
"Can"? You have a much more rosy view on human behavior and what most do when they have idle time. I mostly see snacking, texting, and drone-like TV-watching, and rising obesity rates back me up.

It sounds like your complaint is perfectly suited to the transition to modern heating systems from the wood-burning stove. Chopping wood was great exercise, it took skill to both chop and heat using this technology, both of which offer a core usefulness in any self-sufficiency or natural disaster scenario, and honestly it's one of a short list of activities that I would be happy doing 24/7 for the rest of my life. But for perspective, is it logical to resent anything about the erosion of the wood-burning stove due to clearly superior technologies (gas, electric, even coal)? I don't see how. You decried hard-core gaming as "illogical," but you're being just as illogical yourself by resisting the adoption of unambiguously superior technologies, even when measured with a purely utilitarian yardstick and ignoring comfort and convenience in addition to just entertainment metrics.
For all the world it sounds like you're inferring that because a new way of doing something is discovered, the old methods should be discarded. That's not what you're saying is it?

We still use wood, a couple days ago I split 15 cords for this winter. The aesthetics of using wood for heat can't easily be duplicated by more modern means, so I'm not seeing how more modern methods of heating are superior. Also it's still amazingly efficient (and environmentally friendly, as long as you replant to replace the trees you take), with minimal maintenance.

I didn't say hardcore gaming is illogical, but if that's a person's primary source of stimuli and they do little else, then I don't see them as much more than a waste of resources. As I said before, painting is archaic, as is sculpting, considering we have printers that do both with superior accuracy, efficiency, and speed, yet the art is still appreciated and enjoyed by millions. Again, ease and convenience aren't always the benchmarks for "superior", like anything that requires skill to master, there's an art to driving a stick, above and beyond its basic function.

To say that I haven't adopted new tech is absurd, my home is crawling with it, but I haven't neglected to learn (or forgotten) traditional methods either, not necessarily because they're a good backup in case of a disaster, but because they're rewarding to perform. My wife loves sewing, knitting, and weaving (by hand, even though she has a whole room full of sewing machines and sergers), she makes a lot of her own clothes, mine too, and I love those much more than anything I've ever bought in a store, because I understand the love and care that went into every stitch. Such basic, and comparatively rustic, skills help connect us with a more fundamental way of living. It isn't a better way, but it has its place.

That's really the key question, isn't it, and it deserves more than just oblique references. Do you refuse to use a microwave because you might forget how to use a range, or do you refuse to use a gas/electric range because you might forget how to build a fire, chop wood, or fell a tree? Do you refuse to use matches because you might forget how to make a spark using flint/steel, a bow, or a magnifying glass? For that matter, is steel not a better technology than iron or bronze, because we might forget how to make due without alloys? What about cars in general, are they worse because we forgot how to ride a horse effectively? And are saddles worse because they allowed us to forget the ability to ride bare-back?
What's wrong with horseback riding? It's a lot of fun. Around here a rider on a horse is still a fairly common sight. All those things you mentioned are great to know, specifically being able to start a fire without matches or a lighter, that potentially saved our bacon on a camping trip once, it's hardly a useless skill. Oh, and cooking with a microwave? Really? Eww. I'll use ours to warm coffee and the like, but not much else.

I agree that skills and independence are important, but in my opinion any notion of "better" that includes the atrophy of coping mechanisms we developed just from lacking that technology, is a judgement on the user not on the technology. The technology is unquestioningly "better." The user still has the option of "bettering" him/herself by learning to use both new (better) and old (worse) technologies. What do you think?
"Better" is a subjective term, more often than not, and newer isn't always superior. The finest products in the world are still largely hand-made, despite our advanced automation systems. Are foods made with HFC better than those with sugar? How about meats from animals that have been loaded with hormones and antibiotics, are they better than free-range? Oh, and any of the margarines on the market, are they better than butter?

Long division hasn't become a lost art, despite ubiquitous calculators making division a transparent convenience, so your following statement is undermined by your own example.
Even when I was in school kids weren't even bothering to use it most of the time, and teachers allowed calculators for nearly everything. I've talked with high school students now and they can't do it.

That's the "let them eat cake" argument, and it's not valid. The vast majority either lack that degree of command over their work or housing situation, or they live in climates that prevent out-door travel for much of the year (without arriving in a state so slovenly that they would be unfit for their job).
No, it's the "stop living like trapped rats and find a way of life that makes you happier" argument. Modern cities, for the most part, aren't fit for human habitation, at least not without loads of antidepressants and anger management classes.

I bike too, so I get where you're coming from. I'm just not out-of-touch enough to think that everyone has the same "cake"-options that I do if they wish to forgo "bread". It might be because I don't have as much "cake" as you do, and I still need "bread" to do many things, like go to the airport, buy furniture or lumber or groceries (sometimes), or on days when I don't have the extra 40 minutes it takes to travel by "cake" than by "bread"
I was exclusively eating "cake" before I had a lot of bread, it was a conscious choice. I gave up an $80k /yr job to move back to TN (making $30k), and I don't regret it for a moment. It's one of the choices that defined me and made me stronger, because it helped me to realize that I could do anything I set my mind to.

I've tried it, and in order to use software to do things, I still had to tinker (and eg waking from sleep was not supported, which is something I'm surely not alone in considering a core functionality).
I have it running on a Macbook Pro and it works like a charm, haven't had to go into the terminal once.
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Dec 3, 2013, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
We still use wood, a couple days ago I split 15 cords for this winter. The aesthetics of using wood for heat can't easily be duplicated by more modern means, so I'm not seeing how more modern methods of heating are superior. Also it's still amazingly efficient (and environmentally friendly, as long as you replant to replace the trees you take), with minimal maintenance.
I assume two things: You had the use of a gas-powered log splitter, You had at least one person helping you for a minimum of 4-5 days...long days. I've been splitting wood with my father since I was a little tyke, and he has recently got a powered splitter and even then full-out for 7 hours we'd only be able to average about 2 cords a day. Not to mention even a medium sized house with proper insulation and supplemental heating system would only need ~5 cords for a full winter of wood-stoving. In short, I'm a goddamn expert on splitting wood and there is no way humanly possible you split 15 cords in a couple of days, unless your house doubles as a fully stocked sawmill.
     
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Dec 3, 2013, 02:41 PM
 
Wood, in a stove, with peltier rigs on the pipe, minus all the work to chop it, maxes out at sorta efficient.

Smells nice, though.
     
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Dec 3, 2013, 02:50 PM
 
A good old cast iron cooking stove smack dab in the middle of the kitchen serves to not only heat the house, but you can cook meals in it (dad make this years turkey in our old woodstove), and dry clothes near it in the sloppy winter months.

Splitting wood by hand is more of a good workout to clear the mind rather than any net gain in energy. The amount of time and effort it takes to split, stack and season firewood doesn't pay itself back by lowering your bills enough. Still, the radiant heat of a cranking stove cannot be beaten when you come in from the cold.

Edit: The splitter my father and I use has a dual-action cutting head, meaning you can split on the forward and backward strokes, effectively doubling output.
     
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Dec 3, 2013, 02:50 PM
 
wood fires are awesome, wish I had a fireplace.
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Dec 3, 2013, 02:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
A good old cast iron cooking stove smack dab in the middle of the kitchen serves to not only heat the house, but you can cook meals in it (dad make this years turkey in our old woodstove), and dry clothes near it in the sloppy winter months.

Splitting wood by hand is more of a good workout to clear the mind rather than any net gain in energy. The amount of time and effort it takes to split, stack and season firewood doesn't pay itself back by lowering your bills enough. Still, the radiant heat of a cranking stove cannot be beaten when you come in from the cold.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I love wood stoves and fireplaces. "He who chops his own wood is warmed twice" is good too.

I'm saying it's not efficient.
     
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Dec 3, 2013, 02:58 PM
 
New woodstoves burn pretty damn efficient (80%+) from what I have been told.

That is close to fossil fuel territory. And it's renewable of course.
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Dec 3, 2013, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
I assume two things: You had the use of a gas-powered log splitter, You had at least one person helping you for a minimum of 4-5 days...long days. I've been splitting wood with my father since I was a little tyke, and he has recently got a powered splitter and even then full-out for 7 hours we'd only be able to average about 2 cords a day. Not to mention even a medium sized house with proper insulation and supplemental heating system would only need ~5 cords for a full winter of wood-stoving. In short, I'm a goddamn expert on splitting wood and there is no way humanly possible you split 15 cords in a couple of days, unless your house doubles as a fully stocked sawmill.
We heat 10,000 sq ft and the only other sources now are the fuel cells (there is a NG heat pump we can use as backup). For large logs, yes, I use a splitter. Also, there were 4 of us, and even though we aren't Grizzly Adams, we're all in good shape.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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