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Washington Redskins trademark cancelled (Page 2)
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I'd be more inclined to support that than "redskin", but neither is anything to make hay over.
A term which can
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
piss off
and raise the
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
hackles
of persons based on their membership to an ethnic group is nothing too make hay over?

Okay.
( Last edited by abbaZaba; Jun 19, 2014 at 01:22 PM. )
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Uh huh. So is this a provable statement or just conjecture? It's not like this is the first protest of Redskins name (as another poster pointed out).
It wasn't very many complaining back then, either. Trust me, you really piss off the tribal nations, you'll know.
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Perhaps if you gave other examples from modern times I'd find it easier to buy.
The "noble savage" theme kinda died out. We killed them all.

I'm not being flip.

This is another reason I'm not as bothered by the "Redskin" name. A fair amount (though obviously not all) of the attitude of Anglo-exceptionalism the "noble savage" concept is rooted in doesn't exist anymore. Certainly not like it did in the 19th century.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by abbaZaba View Post
A term which can and raise the of persons based on their membership to an ethnic group is nothing too make hay over.

Okay.
Thanks for proving the point I made earlier.
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:13 PM
 
What did I tell you about being silly earlier? There is no need. The sarcasm may not reach you, but it reaches everyone else reading how I constructed that.

I think you are so wrapped up in this "Left puppet master" conspiracy thing you have going on, it makes it impossible for you to understand the crux of this derogatory name issue. Mayhap, with that mindset, you cannot help but be silly when faced with your own contradictory statement.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is another reason I'm not as bothered by the "Redskin" name.
If they are the ethnic group affected by the word, and they are the ones vocal about it, why shouldn't something be done?
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:20 PM
 
A native group cared enough about the Redskin name to buy ad time:

Brilliant Ad Protesting the Redskins Nickname Airs During the NBA Finals | Adweek

I'm glad to hear the Seminoles get along well with the college. Perhaps other areas could name their teams after tribes as well, it could be a good educational experience and keep the names of some long forgotten tribes alive.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by abbaZaba View Post
If they are the group affected by the word, and they are the ones vocal about it, why shouldn't something be done?
I'm willing to hear arguments from one.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
A native group cared enough about the Redskin name to buy ad time:

Brilliant Ad Protesting the Redskins Nickname Airs During the NBA Finals | Adweek

I'm glad to hear the Seminoles get along well with the college. Perhaps other areas could name their teams after tribes as well, it could be a good educational experience and keep the names of some long forgotten tribes alive.
This apparently gives Cleveland a full pass.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm willing to hear arguments from one.
Then listen to the points the Native Americans make about the Redskins name? Read the articles written by the Native Americans? Watch the ad Native Americans bought to air during the NBA Finals? Do you need more than that? Are you just hoping to absorb all about this issue from this singular thread?
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
A native group cared enough about the Redskin name to buy ad time:

Brilliant Ad Protesting the Redskins Nickname Airs During the NBA Finals | Adweek

I'm glad to hear the Seminoles get along well with the college. Perhaps other areas could name their teams after tribes as well, it could be a good educational experience and keep the names of some long forgotten tribes alive.
The more I've read about this, the more I've learned that above all terms, even Native American, they prefer to be referred by their Tribe name. And you make a good point: if that were done, it would certainly foster greater learning of the individual tribes and differences and history associated with each.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:28 PM
 
@AbbaZaba

If there's a link you think I should see, I'll check it out.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Trust me, you really piss off the tribal nations, you'll know.
Do you know now?

I dunno why this ad slipped my mind! I remember watching it during Game 3. Pretty moving. Also straightforward.

After viewing it again today, it just makes me think this ad ends up making you WANT TO change the nickname, not HAVE TO.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I'm glad to hear the Seminoles get along well with the college. Perhaps other areas could name their teams after tribes as well, it could be a good educational experience and keep the names of some long forgotten tribes alive.
Similar situation with the Chicago Blackhawks hockey team. I'm still not convinced there's as much widespread outrage amongst NA as we are being led to believe but if the name changes and the logo stays I guess it's not the end of the world either. It would certainly give them an excuse to sell more apparel.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by abbaZaba View Post
It seems clear that it is impossible for you to grasp that I do not view the world in Left, Right, Middle, Bottom, war between these factions, a soapbox du jour. It seems clear that it is impossible for you to think a person can look at a position, stance and come to a moral conclusion based on how I believe humans should treat other humans. It seems clear that it is impossible for you to understand that empathy can be legitimate. There is nothing that can be done for that.
I have to clean the Coke off my computer screen after this blather!

Perhaps you are too absorbed IN that LEFTIST world to realize how biased you are? Especially since you brought up morals.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:47 PM
 
The people who 'feel' affected are those with thin skins, and who are immature. Perhaps a few decades will lessen this effect.
Being offended is all in your head.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
A native group cared enough about the Redskin name to buy ad time:

Brilliant Ad Protesting the Redskins Nickname Airs During the NBA Finals | Adweek

I'm glad to hear the Seminoles get along well with the college. Perhaps other areas could name their teams after tribes as well, it could be a good educational experience and keep the names of some long forgotten tribes alive.
It's really hard to tell who is paying for such ads, who is actually behind them, and what the real agenda is and what's been manufactured.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
This apparently gives Cleveland a full pass.
That's what gives me pause about the authenticity of it, TBH.
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I'm glad to hear the Seminoles get along well with the college. Perhaps other areas could name their teams after tribes as well, it could be a good educational experience and keep the names of some long forgotten tribes alive.
I agree. At the end of the day, the existing name is generally acknowledged to be a racial slur. I really don't see why a new nickname could not celebrate the same Native American connections without retaining so much of the...baggage, if you will.

All of our discussion, of course, has danced around the subject of George Marshall, the owner of the team until the mid-60s. This was a man who was infamous for his racism, particularly with respect to having african americans on the team (I believe he was the last or one of the last NFL owners to "add" a black player to the roster, after he simply could not avoid it - a full 15 or 16 years following Jackie Robinson's MLB debut, natch), and his opposition to racial integration was also a matter of very public record.

Now, I have no idea whether Marshall was actually racist towards native americans - perhaps someone else can look that up. But to me, it certainly adds a wrinkle to the "tradition" argument: namely, that this is also a team that had a "tradition" of racism for decades.
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Jun 19, 2014, 01:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by abbaZaba View Post
Do you know now?

I dunno why this ad slipped my mind! I remember watching it during Game 3. Pretty moving. Also straightforward.

After viewing it again today, it just makes me think this ad ends up making you WANT TO change the nickname, not HAVE TO.
Nope. I could spend some money and buy nationwide ad space, hire some actors and a man with a husky voice, then send any message I want. No actual group of councils has gotten behind this, that I know of, and until there is it doesn't mean anything.
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Jun 19, 2014, 02:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
I agree. At the end of the day, the existing name is generally acknowledged to be a racial slur. I really don't see why a new nickname could not celebrate the same Native American connections without retaining so much of the...baggage, if you will.

All of our discussion, of course, has danced around the subject of George Marshall, the owner of the team until the mid-60s. This was a man who was infamous for his racism, particularly with respect to having african americans on the team (I believe he was the last or one of the last NFL owners to "add" a black player to the roster, after he simply could not avoid it - a full 15 or 16 years following Jackie Robinson's MLB debut, natch), and his opposition to racial integration was also a matter of very public record.

Now, I have no idea whether Marshall was actually racist towards native americans - perhaps someone else can look that up. But to me, it certainly adds a wrinkle to the "tradition" argument: namely, that this is also a team that had a "tradition" of racism for decades.
On the other hand, that all happened before I was born, including the part where Marshall starts pushing up daisies. I don't know how relevant his opinions are now.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 02:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Nope. I could spend some money and buy nationwide ad space, hire some actors and a man with a husky voice, then send any message I want. No actual group of councils has gotten behind this, that I know of, and until there is it doesn't mean anything.
No actual group of councils other than the National Council of American Indians? Do you do any sort of research at all? It is right at the end of the video. The video is from their YouTube page. The video is on the National Council of American Indians homepage.
( Last edited by abbaZaba; Jun 19, 2014 at 02:26 PM. )
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 02:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@AbbaZaba

If there's a link you think I should see, I'll check it out.
I started reading this just now after browsing through the NCAI site:

http://www.ncai.org/attachments/Poli...sm_10_2013.pdf

If that is daunting, skip down to page 11 "Historical Context of Race in America at time of Team Name Change To Redsk*ns"

It does a pretty good job of describing Marshall's influence and examples of both Native American and African American racism.

Also, for those that think this is a recent issue, head to pages 18 through 22 of that document to view a timeline of the issue along with other sports teams that changed their names
( Last edited by abbaZaba; Jun 19, 2014 at 02:47 PM. )
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 02:35 PM
 
Here's the solution. Keep the name, new mascot and team logo.

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Jun 19, 2014, 02:39 PM
 
The Washington Redspuds

I love it, terrifying yet inspiring
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Jun 19, 2014, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
The Washington Redspuds

I love it, terrifying yet inspiring
I can see it now: opposing fans with signs "WE'RE GONNA MASH THE SPUDS"
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 03:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by abbaZaba View Post
No actual group of councils other than the National Council of American Indians? Do you do any sort of research at all? It is right at the end of the video. The video is from their YouTube page. The video is on the National Council of American Indians homepage.
A group that's largely been ignored by most native Americans since the early `60s.
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Jun 19, 2014, 03:02 PM
 
Allow me to take a different tack.

There's a perception vs. reality issue.

If the reality is a term is racist, but almost no one perceives it as such, I think it's fair to question the scope of the negative impact it's having.

To put it another way, intent counts for something. Not everything, mind you, but something. If the word isn't meant as an epithet, then it isn't meant as one. A/K/A: context matters.

I'm going to save my ire for the people who mean it. I find directing it at those who don't to be misplaced.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 03:15 PM
 
Native Americans are no more immune to the harms of stereotyping than any other ethnic group
Originally Posted by NCAI Executive Summary document
Empirical evidence in a 2004 study by Dr. Stephanie Fryberg, a preeminent cultural and social psychology scholar and an enrolled member of the Tulalip Tribes in Washington state, showed that the use of American Indian-based names, mascots, and logos in sports have a negative psychological effect on Native peoples and positive psychological consequences for European Americans.1 Additionally, Fryberg has concluded that these mascots have negative effects on race relations in the United States.

When exposed to these images, the self-esteem of Native youth is harmfully impacted, their self-confidence erodes, and their sense of identity is severely damaged. Specifically, these stereotypes affect how Native youth view the world and their place in society, while also affecting how society views Native peoples. This creates an inaccurate portrayal of Native peoples and their contributions to society. Creating positive images and role models is essential in helping Native youth more fully and fairly establish themselves in today’s society.

The rate of suicide among American youth is highest for Native young people at 18 percent, which is twice the rate of the next highest of 8.4 percent among non-Hispanic white youth. Suicide is particularly prevalent among young Native men, who commit suicide at a rate that is up to five times higher than that of young Native women.2 Where the “invisibility” of Native peoples and a lack of positive images of Native cultures may not present a major issue for many Americans, it poses a significant challenge for Native youth who want to access and maintain a foundation in their Native cultures and languages.
Note the 18% suicide rate of Native youths, a rate slightly more than double the next highest suicide rate group. They also have a much higher rate of depression than other ethnic groups in the same age group.

Originally Posted by 2004 Fryberg study
In general, we argued that members of ethnic or minority groups are more constrained in their identity formation process than those in the mainstream because they have less power to control the public representations of their group. This constraint on one's "freedom to be" is directly related to how one's group is publicly represented and is manifested in various factors of one's identity. In the present research three major findings are used to support these social constraints on one's identity. First, American Indian representations were relatively scarce and fairly limited in scope, with very few contemporary, progressive images. Second, American Indian social representation (i.e., Pocahontas, Chief Wahoo, or Negative Stereotypes) depressed how American Indian participants felt about themselves (self-esteem), their community (community efficacy), and what they want to become or are able to become (possible selves). Third, in the case of European Americans, who were not the target of these social representations, they experienced a psychological boost (increased self-esteem) from these American Indian social representations.
..........
For example, given that the mascot image makes European Americans feel better about themselves, they may not be able to understand why this image makes the target of the representation feel bad and, for reasons they may not be able to calibrate, they may not be motivated to cease using the image. Thus, the power of these social representations is a societal problem, not an individual one, and the onus to change these representations lies within all of us- not just within those who are the target of the representation.
Fryberg study

Originally Posted by subego View Post
There's a perception vs. reality issue.

If the reality is a term is racist, but almost no one perceives it as such, I think it's fair to question the scope of the negative impact it's having.
I think it is more than fair to question the negative impact the stereotype provides. And there has been much research on stereotypes, with great psychological harm being found. But why keep repeating "no on perceives it as [racist"]? No one?

A youth suicide rate at 18%, twice that of the next group cannot be described as anything but alarming. Where does this variance in depression and self harm come from? To say that outside sources and opinions of other ethnic groups don't have an impact seems incorrect to me.

The viewpoint of outsiders saying "no no, we are HONORING them by calling them redskins" has a psychological impact. In addition to this current nonchalant attitude toward these stereotypes, these youths learn about the history and destruction of their people. Identifying with heritage and family is a huge part of a teens progression toward having a healthy self-image; when they learn of the atrocities and see how stereotypes are still used and brushed off, it has to be a contributor to such a high suicide and depression rate. At the very least, it has to be a contributor to lowered self-esteem and an inability to identify healthily with one's own heritage.

In the end, what good reason is there for keeping the name? Just because it has been around a long time? Because damn those whiners who just want to complain about any ol' thing?
( Last edited by abbaZaba; Jun 19, 2014 at 03:55 PM. )
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 03:56 PM
 
I'd find that paper on the harm of stereotypes to be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

The reason Native American kids kill themselves is because reservation life has turned out an unmitigated disaster. Trying to pin this on "Redskins" is truly missing the forest for the tree.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 04:11 PM
 
Sigh. They live in squalor because we put them there. We use derogatory terms nonchalantly to refer to them. I never proposed it was the #1 contributor. Look at the first 11 posts in this thread! 5 to 6 of them were all jokes about this issue! All these things work together.

Psychological forces contributes greatly to depression and suicide. Plenty of other ethnic groups live in squalor and those groups aren't close to 18%. The #2 youth suicide rate, at 8.4% is non-Hispanic white youth. Caucasians. Psychological factors are a great contributing factor.

Again, what good reason is there to keep the Redskins name? It is an admittedly sad state of affairs. Why does the Redskins name NEED to prevail?
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 04:19 PM
 
Been to one of their casinos lately? The worlds two largest casinos are tribal owned.
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Jun 19, 2014, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'd find that paper on the harm of stereotypes to be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

The reason Native American kids kill themselves is because reservation life has turned out an unmitigated disaster. Trying to pin this on "Redskins" is truly missing the forest for the tree.
Giant f***ing trees. Some reservations are governed more effectively than others, but they all have major issues with generational divides.
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Jun 19, 2014, 04:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by abbaZaba View Post
Sigh. They live in squalor because we put them there. We use derogatory terms nonchalantly to refer to them. I never proposed it was the #1 contributor. Look at the first 11 posts in this thread! 5 to 6 of them were all jokes about this issue! All these things work together.

Psychological forces contributes greatly to depression and suicide. Plenty of other ethnic groups live in squalor and those groups aren't close to 18%. The #2 youth suicide rate, at 8.4% is non-Hispanic white youth. Caucasians. Psychological factors are a great contributing factor.

Again, what good reason is there to keep the Redskins name? It is an admittedly sad state of affairs. Why does the Redskins name NEED to prevail?
Alaska TRIED to abolish the reservation system, to encourage integration, but the older generations wouldn't have it. No one externally forces them to stay anywhere, they can live and work any place they choose, but their elders want to force their archaic social structures on them, and THAT causes more "psychological factors" than anything as silly as the name of a football team. It's really time for them to stop blaming others for what's currently happening to them and admit that they have some huge self-inflicted wounds that have been festering for generations.

"Redskins" is a sports team's name, a historical reference, it doesn't represent NAs anymore and hasn't for a very long time.
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Jun 19, 2014, 04:57 PM
 
What Shaddim said.
     
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Jun 19, 2014, 06:57 PM
 
Don't like the name Redskins? Get over it! Some people like it just fine and you have no right to force your knee-jerk political correctness on them. No one has the right to NOT be offended, especially in a case where the perceived insult is not blatant or intentional.
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Jun 20, 2014, 06:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
"Redskins" is a sports team's name, a historical racial epithet, it doesn't represent NAs anymore and hasn't for a very long tIme.
Fixed.

As such, the name should and will most likely be changed in the future.
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Jun 20, 2014, 08:31 AM
 
Having said that, I would be very interested in some sort of research similar along the lines of what Shaddim mentioned, re: how many native Americans believe the word to be a slur when used by non-NAs.

As a general rule, marginalized communities are treated pretty homogenously. That the Oneida are waging some sort of campaign against the name tells me that at least one significant faction is displeased.
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Jun 20, 2014, 09:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Having said that, I would be very interested in some sort of research similar along the lines of what Shaddim mentioned, re: how many native Americans believe the word to be a slur when used by non-NAs.

As a general rule, marginalized communities are treated pretty homogenously. That the Oneida are waging some sort of campaign against the name tells me that at least one significant faction is displeased.
I believe approximately 80% of those polled express little to no offense at the term. However, as you point out, Nations' leadership have expressed offense and the term does have a very mixed history everywhere from empathy to racism. I'm somewhat torn on this one. I'd like to see a type of free market solution to this issue with perhaps, substantial donations to particular causes most relevant and important to Native Americans. Granted, you can't just "buy" a people off, but as long as neither side is relenting, something should be done to at least acknowledge their grievance on this and no one could argue that A. they are in dire need of resources and B. an NFL franchise is not.

Of course, this doesn't mean one has to buy off on the notion that Native Americans were sitting around fires singing Kumbaya 'til the evil white man came. Native Americans had been conquering other tribes, enslaving and killing others, and taking one another's territory since long before we showed up. Does this excuse the atrocities the colonists perpetrated? Absolutely not, but it is also not an excuse for revisionist history and nonsensical emotional blather.
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Jun 20, 2014, 11:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The "noble savage" theme kinda died out. We killed them all.

I'm not being flip.

This is another reason I'm not as bothered by the "Redskin" name. A fair amount (though obviously not all) of the attitude of Anglo-exceptionalism the "noble savage" concept is rooted in doesn't exist anymore. Certainly not like it did in the 19th century.
Per-apologize because this is a new day and I may not remember everything from yesterday but – if the concept you're using to defend the name (noble savages) has died out, doesn't that undermine the defense?
     
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Jun 20, 2014, 11:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Fixed.

As such, the name should and will most likely be changed in the future.
Shocking!



No, not really.
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Jun 20, 2014, 11:54 AM
 
I'm curious....

If they change the name of the Redskins, will they change the name of Oklahoma, too?

Oklahoma means "red people".

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Jun 20, 2014, 11:55 AM
 
This reminds of the debate over the use of the word "Squaw" In another hundred years they will say the same thing about Piestewa
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Jun 20, 2014, 11:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I'm curious....

If they change the name of the Redskins, will they change the name of Oklahoma, too?

Oklahoma means "red people".
I'm not sure I could endure the political and media shitstorm if people actually wanted to change the name of a state.
     
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Jun 20, 2014, 12:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm not sure I could endure the political and media shitstorm if people actually wanted to change the name of a state.
But it makes you wonder - why go after one thing and not another?

I'm not sure I agree with "Redskin" being racist. In my life, not ONCE have I ever heard that term as a racist remark. I did hours of reading about this subject the other day. Yes, it was once used 100 years ago in a disparaging way, but not really since then.

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Jun 20, 2014, 12:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
But it makes you wonder - why go after one thing and not another?

I'm not sure I agree with "Redskin" being racist. In my life, not ONCE have I ever heard that term as a racist remark. I did hours of reading about this subject the other day. Yes, it was once used 100 years ago in a disparaging way, but not really since then.
I have no doubt it's racist, though I don't think it's used either. And I have a feeling there's a difference between "redskin" and "red people" in the offense dept.
     
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Jun 20, 2014, 12:20 PM
 
It's also important to note that the usage would have died out during the same time that Native Americans themselves were dying out, not just in terms of population and politics but also impact on popular culture.

At least here in Canada, there has been a surge in aboriginal political influence over recent decades - much attributed to sadly belated realization and acknowledgements that yes, all levels of governments had egregiously broken the various contracts they had negotiated with aboriginal ancestors, and it was time for the piper, as they say, to be paid (even if not in full).
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Jun 20, 2014, 12:44 PM
 
Ok, let's turn this around.

Let's say you want to honor Native Americans in some way.

What name do you choose?

Indians? Nope. That's racist now too, or at least disparaging. Kids don't sit "Indian Style" anymore, it's "criss cross". Why? Can't use the word "Indian" anymore.

Native Americans? Too long a name.

Natives? Nope. Negative term.

So what's left? What name CAN you use to honor Native Americans and make everyone happy? I can't think of a single name.

There's the Kansas City Chiefs. I'm surprised people haven't gone after them.

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Jun 20, 2014, 12:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
So what's left? What name CAN you use to honor Native Americans and make everyone happy? I can't think of a single name.
Specific tribes seems to be the way to go.

After all, do we really honor any other races with team names?
     
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Jun 20, 2014, 01:51 PM
 
Our minor league hockey team used to be called the Eskimos, but that was insensitive.
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Jun 20, 2014, 01:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Our minor league hockey team used to be called the Eskimos, but that was insensitive.
Inuit really doesn't roll of the tongue as well.
     
 
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