[suhail]

I'm trying to use InDesign to replace Quark, but InDesign is SLOooww…

Granted, it has way more features than Quark but the speed difference is crippling. I remember Quark showing an OSX version at MWNY in 2001 during the Keynote speach, but where is it now? They have this pitiful excuse on their website about quality assurance. Something wrong is going on, and I think it's between them and Apple

Does anyone know anything about it's release date?

[Don Pickett]

Quark has said first half 2003.

[Guy Incognito]

I hope they keep the System 4 icons and old-skool interface.

[Don Pickett]

Once Quark 5 ships, and I get my hands on a copy of Quicken for X, I can't see any reason for launching Classic.

[Terri]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
I hope they keep the System 4 icons and old-skool interface.

I hear it will have kewl day glow pulsating blinking wavy things all over the place with icons that change with the phases of the moon.

Personally I just hope it's stable and has the same print options as the classic version. Option to use the same shortcuts as Adobe apps would be nice.

Anyway they are saying early summer maybe. Quark called me today because I haven't upgraded to 5 yet. I was in a rather strange mood so I lied. I told her that because they still don't have a carbon version that I had to switch to InDesign. She just got real quiet and said ok.

[suhail]

Off topic
Yeh… Too much eyecandy is not for the professional!
I wish if I can deactivate all the eyecandy in OSX, like the dropshadows, semi-transparent menus, and all that stuff, in exachange for some performance boost. And I wish Apple will do it, not a third-party hack.

[BuonRotto]

Originally posted by suhail:
Off topic
I wish if I can deactivate all the eyecandy in OSX, like the dropshadows, semi-transparent menus, and all that stuff, in exachange for some performance boost.

further off topic:

For what it's worth, that won't buy you much if any performance boost. But there are other arguments against eye candy that doesn't address.

I've heard very unreliable rumors that they will announce Quark for OS X at MWSF in January. I've heard more believable rumors hat it will come as early as March, as late as September, 2004.

[wadesworld]

Hell.....cold day......

That's when.

[::maroma::]

Originally posted by Don Pickett:
Once Quark 5 ships, and I get my hands on a copy of Quicken for X, I can't see any reason for launching Classic.

Good news for you, Quark 5 is shipping!
Yeah, I knew what you meant. 5 is a pitiful upgrade. I stuck with 4. Trying to get InDesign at work. I hope Quark dies in its sleep.

[Mark Tungston]

waaahhh

indesign is such a pain

it's so bloated. i'd take quark 4 over indesign 10 anyday

[dadder]

Quark says it will release version X when it is assured you will have an even uninterrupted workflow. Let's see, Quark has been writing program language for how many years?...13? More?
Hmmmm, Adobe can make all their apps come out in a timely fashion for OS X, but Quark can't get 1 app out and a year late? Seems pathetic. How many people work at Quark... 5?
They are definitely going to get the majority of people that will wait for version X, but I believe if it doesn't waste away InDesign in that version, the world will see a big change in publishing software next year. Oh and if you ask me, anything later than January for a release is going to tick a lot of people off including myself. But then again, what does Quark care. They did send me a free t-shirt once for praising QuarkImmedia in MacUser (now MacWorld) a few years ago.
Quark has had tons of upgrade promos the last two weeks - is this a sign of something to come?

[-Q-]

Originally posted by dadder:

Quark has had tons of upgrade promos the last two weeks - is this a sign of something to come?

Sounds like Quark isn't selling nearly as many Quark 5s as they wanted to...

[Don Pickett]

Originally posted by dadder:
Quark says it will release version X when it is assured you will have an even uninterrupted workflow. Let's see, Quark has been writing program language for how many years?...13? More?
Hmmmm, Adobe can make all their apps come out in a timely fashion for OS X, but Quark can't get 1 app out and a year late? Seems pathetic. How many people work at Quark... 5?
They are definitely going to get the majority of people that will wait for version X, but I believe if it doesn't waste away InDesign in that version, the world will see a big change in publishing software next year. Oh and if you ask me, anything later than January for a release is going to tick a lot of people off including myself. But then again, what does Quark care. They did send me a free t-shirt once for praising QuarkImmedia in MacUser (now MacWorld) a few years ago.
Quark has had tons of upgrade promos the last two weeks - is this a sign of something to come?

Nope - InDesign has just about 0% market penetration. Quark isn't going anywhere.

[BKuchta]

At first I didn't think Quark was going anywhere either, especially with the 1.0 release of Indesign. Afterall, Quark has a huge grip on the publishing market. But Indesign 2.0 looks pretty good... and I don't know of one person who bought Quark 5. Not one.

I also know of several ad agencies that are thinking of or have switched over to indesign. It will only trickle down from there.

[CaseCom]

Our company is going to switch from Quark to InDesign in mid-2003. Unfortunately it also looks like we'll be switching to an all-PC platform ... goodbye Macs

I'm not a designer (as you can tell by my sig ), but some of our designers who worked with InDesign 2.0.1 on a pilot project absolutely raved about it.

[thanatos]

Originally posted by CaseCom:
Unfortunately it also looks like we'll be switching to an all-PC platform ... goodbye Macs

For what lame reason do you want to go over to a virus infested platform, that needs an army of technicians to keep it running?

[thanatos]

dubble post

[Terri]

Originally posted by thanatos:


What lame reason do you have for that?

I'm seeing this a lot with my larger accounts.

Mostly it's their in house IT department who sees PC as being cheaper and they don't need to use outside consulting, like me.

They often seem to have a hard time finding good designers then and I've seen a few switch back.

It really doesn't help that there is no Outlook, FrontPage, or a few other piece of sh*t PC programs for Mac 10.

Places look at having to get 2 computers for their designers, the Mac and the PC for Outlook, etc.

None of my smaller accounts would ever consider switching to PeeCees. They usually have one PC for the accountant so that they can run Quickbbooks.

[Big T]

Quark is nuts. I just got an email from them trying to sell me 4.1 (which I've been running the whole time) at a reduced cost! They realize 5 isn't selling worth crap, and alot of people have stayed at 4.1.

[Corys]

Originally posted by Big T:
Quark is nuts. I just got an email from them trying to sell me 4.1 (which I've been running the whole time) at a reduced cost! They realize 5 isn't selling worth crap, and alot of people have stayed at 4.1.

LOL..I got that same email.
I was thinking the marketing dept. didn't realize that Quark 5 was shipping yet..

[Mark Tungston]

Originally posted by Terri:

They often seem to have a hard time finding good designers then and I've seen a few switch back.

BINGO!

[suhail]

InDesign is a great app, but its Slow. There is now way I'd consider using InDesign to design Catalogs, but I do use it for flyers, Video & DVD covers, Pocket Folders etc. because it is better than quark.

If InDesign was as fast as Quark, I'd have set Quark ablaze.
Did I already say that InDesign is slow?

Offtopic: Stupid Quark features:
ONE UNDO!!

[Kave]

Originally posted by -Q-:

Adobe get's all their software out in time etc etc....

Ok, please tell me where Adobe Acrobat Distiller for OS X is then, or Adobe Type Manager Deluxe, or Adobe FrameMaker?
If it takes 7-11 months more for Quark to come out with a decent version of Express 6, I think we are better with that.
Photoshop 7 crahes randomly in OSX, I haven't seen it crash at all on OS 9 before on a known working system.
InDesign is so extremely slow so it's unusable, except for people who don't work with it for everyday use.

[brainchild2b]

I could care less which program is better, but from the point of my clients it's retarded and suicidal to recommend DP houses to go with Quark.

First Quark is nearly bankrupt, we don't know how long they will be around.

They don't update often.

We have no idea of OS X support, and when it's coming.

Quark hasn't updated it's feature set signifigantly for modern publishing

Recommending Quark as the software for any of my client dp firms means that I can't guarantee them anything. If quark decides to drop off the face of the earth, due to their huge market decline, my clients would be *ucked.

[suhail]

Child, what are you talking about?

Way too many assumptions!

[JLL]

Originally posted by Kave:

Ok, please tell me where Adobe Acrobat Distiller for OS X is then, or Adobe Type Manager Deluxe, or Adobe FrameMaker?

ATMD won't be released - it's discontinued!

Acrobat Distiller was already released when Mac OS X was released, but they did carbonize Acrobat though.

FrameMaker was almost ready when Mac OS X was released.

Expect to see Distiller and FrameMaker for Mac OS X when the next version of those apps are released.

Originally posted by Kave:
If it takes 7-11 months more for Quark to come out with a decent version of Express 6, I think we are better with that.

7-11 months more than what? Mac OS X is getting closer and closer to it's second birthday - and still no QXP!

[Don Pickett]

Originally posted by brainchild2b:
I could care less which program is better, but from the point of my clients it's retarded and suicidal to recommend DP houses to go with Quark.

First Quark is nearly bankrupt, we don't know how long they will be around.

They don't update often.

We have no idea of OS X support, and when it's coming.

Quark hasn't updated it's feature set signifigantly for modern publishing

Recommending Quark as the software for any of my client dp firms means that I can't guarantee them anything. If quark decides to drop off the face of the earth, due to their huge market decline, my clients would be *ucked.

Remind me never, ever to ask for your consulting advice.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Don Pickett:


Nope - InDesign has just about 0% market penetration. Quark isn't going anywhere.

[Terri]

I love System 10.2 or I should say that I love what it will be. I think Apple is trying to move us too fast into it. I have 10.2 on two of my machines, but the machine that I do most of my design work on is still running 9.2. I have tons of apps that I use that do not have any release dates for a Mac X version. Things like the software for live web cams have no release dates and do not work in Mac X's classic, only when booted in 9.

All the prepress houses down here are still running 9.2 or even 8.6.

When I get a new client that has never used a Mac before and all they want to do is Photoshop and web access I put them in 10.2. I am seeing a lot of former PC uses switching to Mac, but with no Outlook exchange client Mac X is worthless in corporate.

I have a few small designers that want start working in 10.2 and for them I set them up with Fruit menu, Windowshade, X labels, Default folder, Extensis Suitcase. Most are running Quark 4.1 or 5 in classic, very few use InDesign. Most end up switching back to 9.2 after getting frustrated with Mac X.

There are still so many pieces missing from Mac X when doing production work. Not so little thing like drives, plug-ins, RIPs, etc. that I don't see major switching for at least another year.

InDesign is too much like PageMaker for most designers. Great for small jobs, but not big catalogs.

Should be interesting if new Macs really no longer boot into 9 beginning next year…

[JLL]

Originally posted by Terri:
I have a few small designers that want start working in 10.2 and for them I set them up with Fruit menu, Windowshade, X labels, Default folder, Extensis Suitcase. Most are running Quark 4.1 or 5 in classic, very few use InDesign. Most end up switching back to 9.2 after getting frustrated with Mac X.

No wonder since you are trying to make Mac OS X look like Mac OS 9, and your clients are probably trying to use it as Mac OS 9 - but it's not.

[Terri]

Originally posted by JLL:


No wonder since you are trying to make Mac OS X look like Mac OS 9, and your clients are probably trying to use it as Mac OS 9 - but it's not.

Yes well we would love to use Mac X's built in Labels, but we can't seem to find them.

Even Default Folder doesn't help the fact that the Open/Save dialogs just get in the way.

It's not much fun hunting down minimized windows when all you want to do is peek behind a window.

I'm not sure being able to customize the Apple menu really takes away from the X experience.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Terri:


Yes well we would love to use Mac X's built in Labels, but we can't seem to find them.

Even Default Folder doesn't help the fact that the Open/Save dialogs just get in the way.

It's not much fun hunting down minimized windows when all you want to do is peek behind a window.

I'm not sure being able to customize the Apple menu really takes away from the X experience.

Thanks for making my point more clear.

[suhail]

Originally posted by Terri:
InDesign is too much like PageMaker for most designers. Great for small jobs, but not big catalogs.

I can't … take… all… those… Assumptions!!

InDesign is nothing like PageMaker (or RageMaker). I use both Quark and InDesign on a daily basis, the only major problem with InDesign is speed, otherwise, the features are excellent.

All our workstations are OSX, even our Server. We have one XP for our RIP.
I've never seen so little down-time, after OSX 10.1.2

But you are right about the Labels, where are they?
And I would like to see the Print feature return to the Finder.

[Mac Guru]

InDesign is so extremely slow so it's unusable, except for people who don't work with it for everyday use.

Uhhh how so? I use it on a daily basis for hours on end, and have gotten plenty accomplished. I would HARDLY call it unusable. 'Unusable' is an oppinion not a fact. As for Quark, they better have us something by March or who knows what's gonna happen, with Apple releasing OS X only Macs as of January I know one thing, there's gonna be a lot of annoyed people who try to use Quark through Classic, now THAT is unbearable.

Mac Guru

[clarkgoble]

There aren't built in labels, but Unsanity has a label plug in that works very well.

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/9537


Path Finder, the Finder replacement, also has labels.

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/6371

[Miniryu]

Originally posted by Mac Guru:
there's gonna be a lot of annoyed people who try to use Quark through Classic, now THAT is unbearable.

Mac Guru

I don't use Quark everyday, so maybe I can't see this; but how is it so unbearable to use in classic (which is what I do)?

[suhail]

Originally posted by Miniryu:


I don't use Quark everyday, so maybe I can't see this; but how is it so unbearable to use in classic (which is what I do)?

I think you need to be a 'heavy' Quark user to be annoyed by the problems, here are some:

1- Screen redraw: Sometimes when going from OSX to 9, Quark's screen becomes white, even the tools Window. You'll need to do a minimize and amaximize to fix the redraw.
Quark 5 helps, but does not solve this HUGE issue. This problem, even in QX5, becomes untolerable when doing a document spell check. When Quark goes from one screen to another, the screen becomes completely white and you can't see the words on your page.

2- When scrolling through the page, with the Hand tool or the Window arrows, the re-draw messes-up. You again have to do the min. and max. or jump to another page and then back.

3- Sometimes QX fails to see OSX Network drive, but I think this is a OS9 in OSX issue. To solve this you'll need to do a save as!

4- OS9 apps do not like OSX's long file names. So when you work from PhotoShop 7 or Illustrator 10 for OSX, your file names should be kept short to comply with OS9 standards.

5- And the obvious problem is that you lose lots of memory and background processing when you have two OSes running simultaneously. Apple has done an incredible job in having the two OSes run together. But it is not necessary to run a WHOLE OS just for one stubborn developer i.e. Quark.

[dadder]

Originally posted by suhail:


I think you need to be a 'heavy' Quark user to be annoyed by the problems, here are some:

1- Screen redraw: Sometimes when going from OSX to 9, Quark's screen becomes white, even the tools Window. You'll need to do a minimize and amaximize to fix the redraw.
Quark 5 helps, but does not solve this HUGE issue. This problem, even in QX5, becomes untolerable when doing a document spell check. When Quark goes from one screen to another, the screen becomes completely white and you can't see the words on your page.

2- When scrolling through the page, with the Hand tool or the Window arrows, the re-draw messes-up. You again have to do the min. and max. or jump to another page and then back.

Try reformatting your hard drive and doing a complete reinstall of OS 9, Jaguar, Quark 5 and all your assistant apps. Quark redraw will work just fine afterwards. I just went through it.

[dadder]

Originally posted by Terri:
I have a few small designers that want start working in 10.2 and for them I set them up with Fruit menu, Windowshade, X labels, Default folder, Extensis Suitcase. Most are running Quark 4.1 or 5 in classic, very few use InDesign. Most end up switching back to 9.2 after getting frustrated with Mac X.

What could possibly want them to switch back? What more do they need than:
Quark 5
Photoshop 7
ImageReady 7
Illustrator 10
Distiller 5
Dreamweaver MX
Flash MX
Fireworks MX
Transmit 2.1
Most drivers are available for printers, scanners, etc.
Are they just not keeping up with the latest updates that are out there? Hmmmm.

[suhail]

Director MX

[godzookie2k]

keeping up with the latest updates is an expesive exercise for a studio full of computers...a VERY EXPENSIVE exercise.

[Terri]

Originally posted by dadder:

What could possibly want them to switch back? What more do they need than:
Quark 5
Photoshop 7
ImageReady 7
Illustrator 10
Distiller 5
Dreamweaver MX
Flash MX
Fireworks MX
Transmit 2.1
Most drivers are available for printers, scanners, etc.
Are they just not keeping up with the latest updates that are out there? Hmmmm.

Here's one, Spell Catcher
http://www.spellcatcher.com/

It's all the other little things that also need upgrading, it really adds up $$$. Throw in the fact that Mac X really needs the new faster hardware and with a shop full of designers it adds up to a lot of money in an economy, that at least where I am, still is very sluggish with an uncertain direction.

While waiting for Quark it also gives some time for other third party stuff to catch up. It's not like you can just upgrade Photoshop and continue to use all your plug-ins unless you stay in 9.

It's upgrade your programs, upgrade your plug-ins, if they are available, upgrade your hardware after you can't stand how sluggish it feels. In a prepress or design shop it also means scanners, utilities, drivers for old funky equipment.

I personally think the Mac X only boot is a year too soon. Maybe Quark just wanted to wait for the dust to settle before doing a complete rewrite which is what I hear Quark 6 is.

[suhail]

Naaah… Quark isn't that smart.

They had Quark for OSX running in MWNY 2001. But according to their people, Quark programmers wanted something specific in the printing code of OSX where Apple had different plans. Then something happened, and Quark got stubborn. So in the end they became like little kids, we won't release until we get what we want. That's what Quark calls quality assurance, or something like that, on their site.

It was nothing crippling for the application because may Postscript programs cameout during and after that time, programs like Freehand, Illustrator, InDesign, ImPress Imposition software, PhotoShop (with its vector feature), and may other which I don't care to list. They all do postscript just fine, I save to postscript (1,2,and3) and PDF from all these apps all the time and they work beautifully.

So now we ALL have to wait till little Ms. Quark gets her little code. Moreover, Apple had supplied Quark with a slew of code to help them in moving their software foreward, you can actually read that on Quarks own site (the code part).

[JLL]

Originally posted by Terri:
I personally think the Mac X only boot is a year too soon. Maybe Quark just wanted to wait for the dust to settle before doing a complete rewrite which is what I hear Quark 6 is.

If Apple waited until 2004 with Mac OS X booting, Quark would just wait that much longer.

[CaseCom]

Originally posted by thanatos:


For what lame reason do you want to go over to a virus infested platform, that needs an army of technicians to keep it running?

Well, we already have that. Right now our department is probably three-quarters Win2k and one-quarter Mac OS 9, with the Macs being used by the graphics and layout people. Several multitasking types have both a Mac and a PC on their desks.

The choice was maintaining that Mac-PC ratio and upgrading to OS X, or going all-Windows.

And as far as the "lame reason" I'm sure in the end it all comes down to $$$.

I'm a PC user at work (I have no choice in the matter; I don't do design work so I don't get a Mac) so the decision doesn't affect me personally, but still I think it sucks.

[chris v]

Originally posted by suhail:


1- Screen redraw: Sometimes when going from OSX to 9, Quark's screen becomes white, even the tools Window. You'll need to do a minimize and amaximize to fix the redraw.

There's an Xtension floating around out there called Classic Draw XT that totally fixes this problem. If you're useing quark in Classic and can't find it, email me.

CV

[mitchell_pgh]

So much information here is so incorrect it sickens me.

1) InDesign is making a dent on the design world. It’s not major, but it is significant. Simply do a search for Quark on monster.com and then do a search for InDesign (most of the InDesign jobs require quark, but it doesn’t always work the other way around)

2) Quark is the clear winner in the DTP market. They always have, and will continue to be for a long time. They aren’t going under any time soon. Contrary to popular belief, printers LIKE the fact that there aren’t all that many updates! It simplifies things. Coming out with an update every six months infuriates many printers into choosing a more stable application.

3) Most designers still use Quark. If you use Quark and make money doing so, and your printers like quark, and you know how to do just about everything... a slick new interface isn’t going to line your pockets with any more cash. When you have invested years on Quark, you aren’t just going to jump ship.

4) EVERY printer I know of uses Quark. Some will accept InDesign, PageMaker, etc., but they all accept Quark. It IS the standard. (When it comes down to it, it’s all about the printer)

When it comes to which is better Quark vs. InDesign, (disregarding market share, printer input etc.) you have a valid fight on your hands.

One last thing: People in this forum tend to jump on the latest/greatest new thing and that just isn’t how it’s done in the real world. Maybe some can get away with using it, but I have to open 4+ year old Quark files on the fly, I can’t be using InDesign for that reliably.

[mitchell_pgh]

P.S. I'm also starting to get tired of fighting the IT people for my Mac. With 10.2, I can access the printers and main drive location, but they still bitch when I place my order. (this is even after I show them a REAL total cost of ownership layout... [I spend about 2/3 on my system])

I just get tired of it all...

[macaddled]

There is a great rant about Quark from the perspective of the printing industry in this arstechnica thread by ironfist.cmg


thread

[JLL]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
2) Quark is the clear winner in the DTP market. They always have, and will continue to be for a long time. They aren’t going under any time soon.

The problem is, that even if a large share still uses QXP, Quark can still be going under.

Not many have upgraded to QXP5, and if Quark doesn't sell any upgrades, they can have 100% of the market and earning $0.

The next QXP will be Mac OS X only thus forcing their customers to Mac OS X, so if the future is Mac OS X only, why not try it today and give InDesign a spin?

You can buy it at the same price of a QXP5 upgrade - and you'll have both apps!

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
4) EVERY printer I know of uses Quark. Some will accept InDesign, PageMaker, etc., but they all accept Quark. It IS the standard. (When it comes down to it, it’s all about the printer)

A good printer will accept QXP, InDesign, Illustrator, FreeHand, PageMaker, FrameMaker, PDF and others.

When I worked in prepress we had every app and every type of removable media (remember SyQuest 44-88-200-105-270, MO, and many others?)