[Appleman]

In order to get the tab-discussions out of other threads (yeah right...) and to get a macnn-poll instead of a link to a horrible flashy site.

I want to have tabs available in Safari. One can use them or not, it's an option, not a default.

[EDIT: Added two options to the poll. Vote counts should remain intact. -Millennium]

[Zadian]

I don't like tabs.

[Ron Goodman]

You should add a "Don't care" option.

[Guy Incognito]

The tabs concept is neat...the implementation in Chimera/Mozilla is terrible.

[Appleman]

Originally posted by Ron Goodman:
You should add a "Don't care" option.

Even the originator of a poll cannot modify his/her poll, only mods can.
But as I said, make it an option, like Chimera, you can do a command-N or command-T as you like.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Appleman:
Even the originator of a poll cannot modify his/her poll, only mods can.

Well, since you asked...

Many people seem to have this idea that tabs will be "forced" on users, never mind that they haven't ever been. So an option to make them an option is a necessity in a poll like this. It might also be useful to get numbers on people who don't care, which is why I added that.

[Guy Incognito]

Well whether or not it gets implemented...Apple will *never* implement it the way Chimera implements it. Apple is way more conscious of what makes a good GUI.

So I can sleep peacefully knowing that Apple will implement their own, better method.

[slider]

My two cents. When you do a poll, you should just put yes, no, maybe, ect., not no, "I hate tabs", you're forcing the respondant, if one choices to answer, to commint ones self to say I hate it. For example, I don't think they should add tabs because I believe this is a perfect case of KISS (keep it simple stupid), not because I hate tabs. This is like a bill in congress which started out to increase minimum wage, but then someone tacked on an increased spending amendment and therefore one votes no, or in my case not at all, even though they supported minimum wage. Yes, No, Maybe, or Yes you're 100% right and I am a complete Ass, No you're a complete moron and I hope someone shoots you, maybe this is something on god can figure out?

[Producer]

Can you add another option: I hate people who hate tabs!

If you don't want them then don't use them...no one makes you use them in chimera...and if you don't use them it's like they are not there...I really don't understand all the fuss...

[Judge_Fire]

Tabs, yes.

As in the other browsers, they should be loadable in the background, and invokable by command- clicking.

Additionally, something nobody seems to be doing with tabs:

"Open form result in new tab when hitting command- enter to submit". IE does this (into new window) and it's a lifesaver - sometimes form actions go wrong and you want to make sure you don't lose the input.

But it's nice Safari lets you command-shift-click links to open the new window in the background, just like IE.

J

[kman42]

The "maybe, make them an option" choice is a little silly. I can't imagine a tabs implementation where they aren't optional. It's not like you are going to open a window and have extra pages forced upon you in different tabs.

kman

[Appleman]

Originally posted by slider:
My two cents. When you do a poll, you should just put yes, no, maybe, ect., not no, "I hate tabs", you're forcing the respondant, if one choices to answer, to commint ones self to say I hate it. For example, I don't think they should add tabs because I believe this is a perfect case of KISS (keep it simple stupid), not because I hate tabs. This is like a bill in congress which started out to increase minimum wage, but then someone tacked on an increased spending amendment and therefore one votes no, or in my case not at all, even though they supported minimum wage. Yes, No, Maybe, or Yes you're 100% right and I am a complete Ass, No you're a complete moron and I hope someone shoots you, maybe this is something on god can figure out?

Well, as I am not a poll expert, maybe Millennium can change this to
1. Yes
2. No
3. I don't care

I agree with Producer that 4. make it an option is a bit strange: it always have been an option with other browsers, therefor I don't understand that people are against it.
I agree with Guy that Apple is probably going to implement it different.

[Hi I'm Ben]

I'm going to turn into the tab nazi.. i'm gonna gather all these little tab wankers up and start getting rid of them.. i can't listen to anymore.

[Amorya]

The choices should be:

• Yes, I want tabs and would use them
• I'd use them if they were there, but there are more important things to fix
• I wouldn't use them if they were there, but add them as an option to make everyone else happy
• I think they shouldn't be there at all, even as an option. (For whatever reason)

Out of those, I'd select the third one.

Amorya

[JLL]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Well whether or not it gets implemented...Apple will *never* implement it the way Chimera implements it. Apple is way more conscious of what makes a good GUI.

So I can sleep peacefully knowing that Apple will implement their own, better method.

Well isn't it funny that the guy that put tabs in Mozilla AND Chimera is one of the Safari developers?

[Anomalous]

I think tabs CAN be a good idea, but in some cases like some versions of Netscape, it is a hack for browsers that can't open new windows fast enough to handle the regular work load. Tabs should be an option but they should not be the only viable way to multitask.

[juanvaldes]

yes.

For everyone who voted no, you do realize that tabs have and always be a option? You don't have to use it if you don't want to.

[Guy Incognito]

This is my hypothesis:

Hyatt probably tried to implement tabs into Safari but got slapped on the wrist by Apple for having started such an abomination of an UI.

There's no way tabs or an alternate-implementation of tabs is making it into Safari 1.0 (unless secret features weren't included in the beta.)

We may see it in a point release...but I doubt that also. Safari 2.0 might be the better bet (if it gets implemented at all.)

I'd rather want Apple to innovate other things than rehash something that has already been done. Apple will likely let the 3rd-party browsers gain their popularity with tabs.

All I really want to see now is probably OmniWeb changing to KHTML (like they said they would) so that KHTML can grab enough marketshare from mshtml.dll so that people that only code for IE crash and burn.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by juanvaldes:
yes.

For everyone who voted no, you do realize that tabs have and always be a option? You don't have to use it if you don't want to.

Yeah...but bloat is no good.

How many people actually have the skill to use tabbed-browsing in its current form?

I know my mom, my dad, my sisters only browse one page at a time in one browser window.

If I had to make a rough estimate of people that would use tabs, I'd have to say maybe 5%. The other 95% are the average Joe users that don't hand around in the forums and don't participate in polls.

Sorry, but polling the super-geeks is rather stupid. I think Apple has a better understanding of their target population than the MacNN crowd.

[fulmer]

I voted for tabs (in one form or another) simply b/c I'd like the option. Don't impose it on users, just make it something we can turn on at our discretion.

However, I am getting used to this snapback thing, and it's useful.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Yeah...but bloat is no good.

How many people actually have the skill to use tabbed-browsing in its current form?

I know my mom, my dad, my sisters only browse one page at a time in one browser window.

If I had to make a rough estimate of people that would use tabs, I'd have to say maybe 5%. The other 95% are the average Joe users that don't hand around in the forums and don't participate in polls.

Sorry, but polling the super-geeks is rather stupid. I think Apple has a better understanding of their target population than the MacNN crowd.

And they should stop including Terminal, NetInfo, Directory Acces, ColorSync… Ahh, what the hell, dump the whole Utility folder - it's too complicated for your mom.

Btw. your 5% estimate is 250,000 Mac users that would use tabs.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by JLL:
And they should stop including Terminal, NetInfo, Directory Acces, ColorSync? Ahh, what the hell, dump the whole Utility folder - it's too complicated for your mom.

No...because no one else has come up with those utilities.

There are tons of browsers. Apple doesn't need to go for the pros with its browser.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
There are tons of browsers. Apple doesn't need to go for the pros with its browser.

No, the pros that spend the most time on the web don't need the speed.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by JLL:
No, the pros that spend the most time on the web don't need the speed.

That's why Webcore is open-source. OW5 will use it. Anyone else can use it and make their 'pro' browser.

Keep rolling those eyes.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
That's why Webcore is open-source. OW5 will use it. Anyone else can use it and make their 'pro' browser.

The Omni Group has not decided to use WebCore - they said that they are looking at it.

And why is it suddenly OK to you that other browsers can use tabbed browsing now?

[edddeduck]

First my personal view on tabs....

Apple should just have an option for tabs (default to off) in the browser under the general or apperance preferance panes.

My Reasons

Apple don't want to make web browsing complicated tab browsing is more complicated than none to start off with at least.

Apple are famous for ease of use they will not want to make 5% of browsers happy by making the other 95% more confused.

Apple will find a way of making tabs work very well make it an option and point it out on their web site as one of the options and clever things Safari can do. As more time passes it might become default.

CSS Style sheet option is definitely a pro user function. But apple have the option none the less in the prefs.

Also look at history iTunes 1.0 = shoddy, slow no "power features" like equaliser, song organisation etc.

Look at iTunes 3 easy to use for novice users but with alot of powerful options for people with alot of music.

Apple just need to work out how they can do this for a web browser.

Cheers Edwin

[juanvaldes]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
Yeah...but bloat is no good.

what you call bloat I call a valuable killer feature.

[juanvaldes]

Originally posted by edddeduck:

Apple should just have an option for tabs (default to off) in the browser under the general or apperance preferance panes.

Have you ever used any brower with tabs?

You launch it, and you see a single page. No signs of tabs unless you use them. There does not need to be some pref where you set tabs to be "off", if you don't use them they are in effect "off".

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by JLL:
The Omni Group has not decided to use WebCore - they said that they are looking at it.

And why is it suddenly OK to you that other browsers can use tabbed browsing now?

Because there's finally a browser that I like that doesn't incorporate bloat. I'd like it to stay that way.

We don't need another Chimera or OW.

Let's keep Safari for the ones that want a simple browser. Chimera for others that want a simple but more 'powerful'* browser. And OW for the ones that want a super-powerful browser (when it gets more compliant and fast.)

* I use that term loosely. I don't particularly think tabs make an app more powerful.

Why do we need browsers that all have the same feature parity? It makes no sense.

I want my simple browser bloat-free browser. And I'll fight you to the end to keep tabs away from it.

[as2]

I can't make up my mind...

Although I like tabs as they make it easier to view pages and things, I never really got used to the idea, and just command-tilda to move through pages anyway...

I think it's worth having them, as I know lots of people who prefer tabbed browsing, and so it would benefit them.

Adam

[TimmyDee51]

I said "No," but not because I hate tabs. In fact, I like them, but I don't think that Apple should implement them because I think the other browsers need to have some features that Apple doesn't have, much the same way that iTunes doesn't have skins.

[edddeduck]

Originally posted by juanvaldes:
Have you ever used any brower with tabs?

You launch it, and you see a single page. No signs of tabs unless you use them. There does not need to be some pref where you set tabs to be "off", if you don't use them they are in effect "off".

I have used tabs thanks

But you need a prefs function to say...

Default open link in new window....
Default open link in new tab.......


Because you need to define what happens when you click on a link. If tabs was in Safari I would like to be able to define what happens when I click on a link.

That is what I meant sorry if I didn't explain it better.

Edwin

[Hi I'm Mike]

Originally posted by TimmyDee51:
I said "No," but not because I hate tabs. In fact, I like them, but I don't think that Apple should implement them because I think the other browsers need to have some features that Apple doesn't have, much the same way that iTunes doesn't have skins.

uhh what?

looks to me like it does.

[juanvaldes]

Originally posted by edddeduck:
I have used tabs thanks

But you need a prefs function to say...

Default open link in new window....
Default open link in new tab.......


Because you need to define what happens when you click on a link. If tabs was in Safari I would like to be able to define what happens when I click on a link.

That is what I meant sorry if I didn't explain it better.

Edwin

Now that I like.

If memory servers in chimera you need a key modifier to open in a new tab (and not create a new window) because of this I just use the right click contexual menu item just to make sure.

That option should be in every browser that uses tabs

[mrtew]

I am going to start a new poll about whether every other thread should be half full of Guy Incognito bitching about tabs. If you don't like them why don't you not use them? Dozens of people have asked this question and you still haven't answered it Guy? Why don't you just shut up and not use them?

I don't like Sherlock, but I've never written a ten-thread treatise on how disinterested in it I am, and how adamant I am that no one else should like the program, to the point where an entire forum starts to believe there is some kind of issue involved in using or not using Sherlock. I just happen to never start up the program.

Someday, Guy you are going to look back on your childhood and laugh about what a ding-dong you were that you actually started a personal campaign against a cool browser feature that most people thought was great.

[asxless]

Originally posted by mrtew:
Someday, Guy you are going to look back on your childhood and laugh about what a ding-dong you were that you actually started a personal campaign against a cool browser feature that most people thought was great.

ROTFLOL

But of course "Someday, _____ you are going to look back on your childhood and laugh about what a ding-dong you were that you actually started a personal campaign against_____." is so appropriate to so many MacNN posts

asxless in iLand

Yes, even this one.

[Spirit_VW]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
I want my simple browser bloat-free browser. And I'll fight you to the end to keep tabs away from it.

I agree. I hope tabs stay far, far away from Safari. Keep it simple and elegant. There will always be Chimera & Mozilla for the handful of Mac users (i.e., the power users on these forums) that want tabs.

[TheIceMan]

Originally posted by mrtew:
...I don't like Sherlock, but I've never written a ten-thread treatise on how disinterested in it I am, and how adamant I am that no one else should like the program, to the point where an entire forum starts to believe there is some kind of issue involved in using or not using Sherlock. I just happen to never start up the program...

Couldn't have said it any better. It seems like some people are PERSONALLY offended whether or not Apple might put tabs or no tabs into Safari. I am SURE that "if" adding tabs to Safari would make it "bloated" and slow down, there is NO way Apple would implement them. BUT if there is a demand from its user base to make tabs an OPTION (turn it on or OFF), then I honestly do not understand what the problem seems to be. I guess I'm just not that easily angered about tabs or no tabs.

I enjoy using tabs and find it helpful. But when Chimera kept crashing I turned to OmniWeb (no tabs) and used that, although I did miss not having them. The coolest thing about tabs for me is the OPTION to use them or not. There are times when I do not like using tabs and want an ordinary window.

[galarneau]

Well said IceMan... yes, the option should be there if people want it. Personally, I love tabbed browsing. I'll probably not use Safari much when I get my iBook back from repair, simply because of this... until the day comes, I'll be using Chimera.

[edddeduck]

I don't understand peoples problem with tabs..

If they are implimented as my above post suggests (optional) people would never use them unless they need to and if they are not used the "tab function" in the code will never be called thus no slow-down. As I am sure you realise this will not slow Safari down in rendering speed as this is a GUI choice not and engine choice.

But people who want tabs could change the default behaviour.

Cheers Edwin

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by mrtew:
I am going to start a new poll about whether every other thread should be half full of Guy Incognito bitching about tabs. If you don't like them why don't you not use them?

If you don't like Safari sans tabs...don't use it, you stupid sonovabitch! How do you like getting a taste of your own medicine?

Use Chimera...it's fast and it's got tabs. WOW! Why should we have another browser that's fast and that's got tabs?

I should start a "Keep the Bloat Away from Safari" petition.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
If you don't like Safari sans tabs...don't use it, you stupid sonovabitch! How do you like getting a taste of your own medicine?

It's not about not using Safari - it's about not using tabs in Safari!!!

Remove the popup blocker Apple - it's just bloat.

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
I should start a "Keep the Bloat Away from Safari" petition.

Yeah, tabbed browsing is at least 2 million lines of code.

[JLL]

dp

[awaspaas]

Originally posted by Hi I'm Mike:
uhh what?

looks to me like it does.

AAUGH!! MY EYES!!

Why do all iTunes skins have to be so fugly??

[Michael Pick]

I have to laugh at the people who have such faith in Apple as the HI gurus, who will fer sure do something "better" than tabs.

Apple is trying to push drawers, remember - the bane of OS X.

Makes me laugh as much as people thinking that one of Apple's priorities is avoiding bloat in software.

Ha Ha Ha. Woo.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by JLL:
It's not about not using Safari - it's about not using tabs in Safari!!!

No...it's about Safari not having tabs and people hate it because there are no tabs. If you hate Safari because it has no tabs...don't use it.

[wataru]

Holy crap, get a life, Guy.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by wataru:
Holy crap, get a life, Guy.

No yuo!

[wataru]

Originally posted by Guy Incognito:
No yuo!

I'm not the one making a crusade out of keeping a feature out of a browser

As of this posting, you make up a full 21% of the posts in this thread. Don't you have anything better to do?

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by wataru:
Don't you have anything better to do?

Sometimes.