[walrusjb]

Hi all...

Haven't noticed this elsewhere, so if someone has mentioned this let's just chock it up to the collective unconciousness and be done with it.

Yes, we've had 60 or more arguments about whether or not tabs should be implmented in Safari. Lest we devolve into the same arguments again, I'd like to get to the root of the matter for those of us who are a fan of the purpose/functionality and ignore the "tab" interface implmentation, as it seems that it's, for the most part, the implmentation of the single window interface that is the sticking point for some (if not most) opponents. The issue is definitely a lightningrod of sorts, as those of us who use them (tabs) are having a lot of trouble going back to the single-window mode of surfing.

I for one dislike the drawer - it's always felt like an afterthought in so far as organization is concerned. But in threads here and on other boards a running implmentation idea has been bandied about for using the drawer as a means of having a visual representation of the multiple windows associated with each window. Now while I dislike the drawer concept, I do like the idea of expanding on the tab concept to include a visual representation of the page.

Kicking ideas around then, I started thinking about a "Dock Jr." of sorts. The concept itself draws from both tabbed browsing (in that we have multiple windows associated within each major window if the user so desires) and the ideas of the pages drawn within a drawer (bringing the visual representation of the page into play as well). Don't make it an "always visible" feature, though... don't make a dedicated window for it. Take advantage of Quartz.

I'm thinking of an icon (much like the bookmarks icon in the bookmark bar) that, when the mouse passes over it and additional windows are available for said primary window, a slide-out "Dock Jr." appears - a translucent (configurable) dock to let you slide through each window you have associated with this window - image and title just like the the system Dock. Drop from the bookmarks bar , so that the bookmarks bar acts as the screen borders would to the dock.

1. It would look cool, and we like that.
2. The icon for displaying your in-window dock would/should not be visible unless multiple windows were associated with the primary window - so users who didn't use the features of this UI addition would not be confused by the purpose of the new icon/button until they were in a position to use it.
3. As Safari is OS X only - we can safely assume that the "Dock" concept is perhaps the best mastered element of the UI - for even casual users.
4. it provides a single access point for child windows, and a means of quickly moving through them, scaling the image of the page for focus, etc. - as configurable as the system dock in terms of magnification, etc.
5. Quartz could handle this without much of a hassle... so make the pages shown in the browser dock translucent (configurable) to help distinguish them from the page currently being viewed.
6. It would look cool, and we like that

So that's a new line of thought to get us moving in the debate. If my rambling is too abstract, I'll be happy to mock this up so we'll have a visual to work from.

[Appleman]

Point 1. and 6. seem to be a little important to you?

The idea is fine, though I don't know if I really get it. Is your drawer going to be inside my primary window, or is it like the horrible drawer of Help or Preview?

Isn't it going to be distracting, even though one can make it translucent?

[TC]

Why doesn't Apple just give us multiple docks?

We should be able to have one dock which shows all the windows of the current app. In a similar way to how we see minimized windows.

This would be easier to use as well since it would be along one of the edges and be an easier target for the mouse.

[kovacs]

Do you mean like preview does with multi page PDFs ? I don't know, the preview of the webpage will have to use a lot of screen space to be usefull and you always have to click another extra button to show "Mr. Dock jr". I don't think the mouse over is a very good idea, mr. Dock j. will always show up when you least expect it. I like the simple tabs that chimera uses.

Maybe you can make a little photoshop mock up so we can see how Mr. Dock jr. looks like...

[walrusjb]

No no - **not** in a drawer. Like a hidden dock sliding out from underneath the bookmarks bar and over the level of the currently visible page.

I've got a ton of errands to run (yay weekends ) but I'll try and make time to do a visual later this evening + post it.

Point 1. and 6. seem to be a little important to you?

Not terribly so - but most of the bad press I'm seeing around here re: tabbed functionality revolves around how they look - how "un-maclike" they are - so this was trying to come up with something better than a drawer but still providing the functionality. Though in all honesty, whenever we have a traditional Windows user is th office, the Dock seems to be what makes them stop and look at the screen and start asking questions - so a duplication of their eye-catching feature into their new flagship browser might not be a bad angle to consider.

Will post when I've had a chance to throw some mockups together...

[Killpoly]

No no - **not** in a drawer. Like a hidden dock sliding out from underneath the bookmarks bar and over the level of the currently visible page.

Basically a sheet, only with page previews instead of a dialog?

Sounds cool, though it might confuse the purpose of sheets.

[lookmark]

Originally posted by walrusjb:
Not terribly so - but most of the bad press I'm seeing around here re: tabbed functionality revolves around how they look - how "un-maclike" they are - so this was trying to come up with something better than a drawer but still providing the functionality. Though in all honesty, whenever we have a traditional Windows user is th office, the Dock seems to be what makes them stop and look at the screen and start asking questions - so a duplication of their eye-catching feature into their new flagship browser might not be a bad angle to consider.

I agree that some aspects of the Dock could be very useful for multipage browsing. I'm looking for feedback for my own mock-up, which ishere. (I've gotten lots already, and will be updating this weekend.)

Look forward to seeing yours.

[kovacs]

Originally posted by lookmark:
I agree that some aspects of the Dock could be very useful for multipage browsing. I'm looking for feedback for my own mock-up, which ishere. (I've gotten lots already, and will be updating this weekend.)

Look forward to seeing yours.

Hmm, that looks interesting, but the only problem is that it's so big also a lot of space is wasted and filled with brushed metal, the chimera tabs are much smaller and waste less space on your screen, these look so much cooler but I don't know if they are better and if you can find the tab you are looking for faster than in chimera, in chimera I can quickly find the tab I am looking for as long as I don't have too many tabs open...

[icebookdude]

Hi landmark!

I really like your idea. I would definitely use your version.

[Group51]

I have an idea, but last time I mentioned it not many people noticed it. I have fed it back to Apple already and thought about it some more so here it is again.

First of all, I like drawers, on small windows. The Aquisition program shows how drawers can be a really great UI feature. But, they are not so good on big, full-screen screens, like web browsers. The drawer in Chimera, is its worst UI feature for two reasons, first its so big (on my iBook screen) that the left side of the web page goes off the screen if I open it. Also, its is very slow to appear. So, I won't be advocating a drawer.

The problem with tabs is that if you open many at once, the tab label becomes obscured, and the elegance and utility of the feature diminishes. Also, I learn above, it is a bad thing to restrict additional windows to the size of the first. Still, I am a fan of tabs, and I wouldn't be thinking of an alternative if it weren't such a controversial feature!

In thinking of a replacement, I sought simply to retain all the benefits of tabs but in a different way, and perhaps solve a few problems.

My idea then is to utilise the information in the dock menu, (the list of open windows), add the custom URL icon to help identify the source web-site, and display that when you control-click in the application. That is, to put it into the contextual menu. This data would always appear below the existing contextual menu data.

For example, I have 3 windows open at the moment. If I control-clicked on some white space in this message window, I would see:

View Source
Save Page As...

(custom icon) London Flatshare and Flatsharing
(custom icon) MacNN Forums - An Alternative i...Safari tabbed browsing issue
(custom icon) . MacNN Forums - Reply to Topic

The Point is I would only have one window open. The . indicates the active web page. The other two pages are hidden (not in the dock, just hidden). When I select one of the other pages on the list, the window displays the selected content instantly (as if I had switched the tab).

Summary of features:

. This has to be an option (off be default)
. There would have to be something in the browser UI to indicate that there were hidden web pages (the purple widget?).
. The Window menu and dock would need sub-menus to show hidden pages
. You would still be able to open separate windows.
. cmd-shift-N would clear the window and hide the contents (or maybe cmd-t as a sop).

. You could save the collection of web pages in your window to your bookmarks as a 'web session'.
. People with large screens would not have to travel a long way with the mouse to change windows/web pages, or touch the keyboard.
. You could switch web pages with a single mouse click.
. You would be able to view all, or a lot of the web page title, regardless of how many web pages you had hidden.
. If you switched to a web page that was set to a different size, the window would resize automatically.
. You could have the option to 'open this page in another window' in case you needed to do that.

I hope this makes sense. It seems so simple to me it must have been thought of before.

[stil]

Originally posted by Group51:
I have an idea, but last time I mentioned it not many people noticed it.

This seems like a good idea. For me, I don't mind using cascading windows vs. tabs except that using tabs allows me to bookmark groups of them to open at one time. I do dislike drawers

I am a recent switcher and I find this argument over "standard GUI compliance" amusing. I mean just using Macintosh is not being standard.

[TheIceMan]

Originally posted by lookmark:
I agree that some aspects of the Dock could be very useful for multipage browsing. I'm looking for feedback for my own mock-up, which ishere. (I've gotten lots already, and will be updating this weekend.)

lookmark: I LIKE it, especially that there are 2 options to view the panes - visual and text. Look forward to test it out. Let us know when it'll be out.

[Mediaman_12]

Originally posted by stil:
This seems like a good idea. For me, I don't mind using cascading windows vs. tabs except that using tabs allows me to bookmark groups of them to open at one time. I do dislike drawers

I am a recent switcher and I find this argument over "standard GUI compliance" amusing. I mean just using Macintosh is not being standard.

As a former user of Windows you will appreciate that most Macintosh Apps look & perform alike. where as on windows there is more of a 'anything goes, as long as it work and looks ok' approach.
This is/was because most apps do/did stick closely to Apples guidelines.
IMHO The old 'platinum' guidelined where far more strict, and followed by more apps. The Strict compliance has started to fall apart since the introduction of Aqua.

[walrusjb]

Hi all...

Made a quick mockup in P-shop to make this a little less abstract. Please forgive the rough appearance - was in a bit of a rush.

http://homepage.mac.com/walrusjb/SafariDock.html

Lookmark - I like yours a lot better than the traditional drawer model (a-la Chimera "Sidebar" - ugh.)... looks more integrated than I had imagined when reading the drawer concepts. A good move.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by walrusjb:
Hi all...

Made a quick mockup in P-shop to make this a little less abstract. Please forgive the rough appearance - was in a bit of a rush.

http://homepage.mac.com/walrusjb/SafariDock.html

Lookmark - I like yours a lot better than the traditional drawer model (a-la Chimera "Sidebar" - ugh.)... looks more integrated than I had imagined when reading the drawer concepts. A good move.

I think it kicks ass! I don't think Apple will be doing something like that but it's still a nice idea!

[nobodybutme]

Originally posted by walrusjb:
Hi all...

Made a quick mockup in P-shop to make this a little less abstract. Please forgive the rough appearance - was in a bit of a rush.

http://homepage.mac.com/walrusjb/SafariDock.html

Lookmark - I like yours a lot better than the traditional drawer model (a-la Chimera "Sidebar" - ugh.)... looks more integrated than I had imagined when reading the drawer concepts. A good move.

Looks nice. I think it's the best pseudo-tab replacement yet. Although, it can be very helpful seeing all the file names at one time, as in the current, popular tab implementations. Tabs seem a little more convenient and a little less intrusive, but that's not a big deal. Nice job.

[walrusjb]

Although, it can be very helpful seeing all the file names at one time, as in the current, popular tab implementations.

**Totally** agree. Honestly, I'm fine with plain ol' tabs as they are in Mozilla / Chimera... the debate on tabs since Safari's release just got me thinking about other approaches... being able to see the associated pages without having to interact with the window is a huge plus for tabs as I see it - and makes them more efficient than any of these alternates we've been coming up with in that respect.

Just read over at AI that someone has dug around in Safari and found unused resources or tabs or images (can't remember which, and I'm too lazy to look right now) to the effect of "Tabbed" and "No Tabs" (maybe they're preference settings?). The thinking over there, from the guy who posted it, is that they'll show up soon enough... I'm anxious to see what Apple came up with.

Thanks for the feedback guys... and especially for that enthusiastic response, Adam

[nforcer]

Originally posted by lookmark:
I agree that some aspects of the Dock could be very useful for multipage browsing. I'm looking for feedback for my own mock-up, which ishere. (I've gotten lots already, and will be updating this weekend.)

Look forward to seeing yours.

Very cool looking and functional. I like it.

Some suggestions:

At the point where the site caption became truncated, the rest of it should show on a mouseover, just like the dock.

Some kind of option to change the position of the page pane would also be important. Some might want it on the left side so the scrollbar for the page was always the last thing at the right of the window. Some might want it horizonally oriented near the top of the window below the bookmark bar for a more familiar "tab" experience. And some nutcases might even want it at the bottom of the window just above the status bar, depending on how their workflow setup is. My suggestion for changing the position of the pane in the window is this: When the pane resize dot was option clicked, you could physically drag it around the window and place it on the window side you want it.

I look forward to your future mockups.

[awaspaas]

Somebody should email these mockup pages to Dave Hyatt to look at. He actually replies to his email, you know.

[ZackS]

Or you could hack together some stupid crap that is more likely to happen, if anything.

[nforcer]

Originally posted by awaspaas:
Somebody should email these mockup pages to Dave Hyatt to look at. He actually replies to his email, you know.

It might inspire some creativity. Just be careful not to ask for when we're going to get tabbed browsing or other features, or about anything else that might be coming for that matter. He and the other Safari ppl are under strict Apple policies I assume, so I don't think he could tell you what the plans for Safari are anyway. That, and I bet given his reaction ("for the love of God - stop asking me if/when UI feature "X" is going to be implemented in Safari") his email box seems to have been flooded from Safari fanatics with praise/criticism/bug reports/tabbed browsing requests/etc.

[walrusjb]

My suggestion for changing the position of the pane in the window is this: When the pane resize dot was option clicked, you could physically drag it around the window and place it on the window side you want it.

Something like this has been bouncing around in my head too... though i think we'd be left with a top & bottom only sort of placement (can't really "dock" the dock to the scrollbar...)

The only change that's come to mind since this mockup was adding a number to the side of the icon so you can see how many windows are "tabbed" there - but that's likely extraneous chrome at this point. My head simply isn't in the right place to push this any futher tonight.

his email box seems to have been flooded from Safari fanatics with praise/criticism/bug reports/tabbed browsing requests/etc.

Yeah, I doubt now's a good time to bug any of those guys

If they don't have some sort of tab-esque solution in the final 1.0 release, I might forward this along... My assumption would be that they're feature-locked for 1.0 given that it's in public release anyway - so no need to dump even more in their mailboxes right now.

[TheIceMan]

walrusjb: Your mockup looks great too! Man, the more I looked at it, the more I was starting to think it was part of my browser. I would try to "click" on it to see if it moved! Crazy me. Anyways, great job.

[undotwa]

My idea is MUCH simpler. It involves the dock.

I think there should be three sections of the dock:

Files/Folders, Applications, and Windows.

At first startup, they all are at the bottom with two seperators. However, you can reorder the panes by 'dragging' a little darkened bar at the bottom of each dock pane. You can use this to drag the dock pane to one side of the screen for example:

Applications: bottom
Documents: bottom
Windows: right

So thats how it works. Through the magic of Mac OS style 'drag and drop', not the very unMacOS like menu to do so. Docks can also become a transparent floating pallete if you do not dock it to the side of the screen.

All panes stay the same (that in the content). However in the Windows pane, all the active windows appear there like a minimize window. Minimized windows appeared darkened. Click on any window to make it active. Scrub over to see the name.

And thats how it works. Like?

[Jerommeke]

I thought about it too. Imagine yourself: brushed tabs. Yuck! Brushed interface: Yum! Brushed interface with aqua tabs: Aaaargh!

[walrusjb]

Undowata,

I'm sure a more capable/adaptive Dock will come from Apple themselves once the X adoption rate is higher. But even then, I'm not sure I want to go all the way to the system Dock to switch between windows and subs... making the window/page switcher an integral part of the parent window helps make an unconscious association between the Set and its components. By removing this association from the window itself and sticking it in the dock (along with similar items from other windows/programs I'm to assume) we're adding a layer of abstraction into the mix which makes it a different beast altogether, and similar to how minimized windows work in the dock already, save customization and separation.

Ultimately, I don't want to go to the Dock to switch windows around - I can already do that, regardless of how they're arranged. I want to group pages/views into a window for "threaded" reading. I tend to describe tabs and the grouping they allow for in terms of building a magazine - picking out the articles you want to read and build a quick pagelist... then going through it in whatever order you want. Onto a different topic, but want to come back? Open a new parent window and build a new group. Now you only have 2 windows to deal with, and an open ended reading "playlist" that you build as you go.