[Developer]

It's time to discuss the disadvantages of tabbed browsing and why Safari shouldn't implement them.
Some of them are

• Tabs are not intended to be used for web pages.
• Tabs can get very small if many of them are open.
• Tabs look ugly when used in a web browser.
• It can confuse unexperienced users.
• Tabs are unnecessary. You can as easily switch windows using the window/dock menu or command-~.
• Tabbed browsing forces all panes to be in the same size.
• Tabbed browsing is modal. It's not possible to compare web pages or drag&drop text between them.

Please only discuss the disadvantages here. If you like tabs, go the out of this thread.

[kman42]

Originally posted by Developer:
It's time to discuss the disadvantages of tabbed browsing and why Safari shouldn't implement them.
Some of them are

• Tabs are not intended to be used for web pages.
• Tabs can get very small if many of them are open.
• Tabs look ugly when used in a web browser.
• It can confuse unexperienced users.
• Tabs are unnecessary. You can as easily switch windows using the window/dock menu or command-~.
• Tabbed browsing forces all panes to be in the same size.
• Tabbed browsing is modal. It's not possible to compare web pages or drag&drop text between them.

Please only discuss the disadvantages here. If you like tabs, go the out of this thread.

What kind of a jackass one-sided discussion is "only discuss the disadvantages of tabs"? That's just ridiculous; it's not even a discussion if you only talk about the disadvantages. Talk about close-minded.

Just to annoy you, I am going to make a single point refuting one of your claims and then leave.

[*]Tabs are unnecessary. You can as easily switch windows using the window/dock menu or command-~.

This is just dumb. It's not just as easy to open all of those windows. One of the great features of tabs is that you can group a set of related pages into a single bookmark and open them all in the same order every time. Everyone I have introduced to this has found it indispensable. I have tried to get three or four people to start using Safari by explaining it's speed, the google search field, and the snapback feature and they all come back with "No thanks, I'll keep using Chimera until Safari includes tabs."

Don't go around saying something is unnecessary just because you don't use it or you have an alternate way of doing something. I, and many other people, find tabbed browsing an essential time-saver. If you don't like it don't use it. It's not as if they are popping up all over the place forcing themselves on you.



kman

[Judge_Fire]

[*]Tabs are not intended to be used for web pages.

Things evolve when boundaries are stretched. Tabbed browsing is on that path.

[*]Tabs can get very small if many of them are open.

Yes.

[*]Tabs look ugly when used in a web browser.

A matter of opinion, I think they look like tabs in other places, except for Mozilla/Netscape, which looks unmaclike anyway.

[*]It can confuse unexperienced users.

Any advanced feature can. They shouldn't be accidentaly evokable.

[*]Tabs are unnecessary. You can as easily switch windows using the window/dock menu or command-~.

Almost true. Some points:

- Tabs remain visible, where as window titles and the dock menu are hidden, providing no information on system state.

- Rearranging one window is easier than rearranging many

- The "~" requires three keys in itself on my keyboard, quite inconvenient

[*]Tabbed browsing forces all panes to be in the same size.

The developer of the app might do that, not the concept of tabbed browsing

[*]Tabbed browsing is modal. It's not possible to compare web pages or drag&drop text between them.

Viewing a long document, like a multipage text, is modal too, in the sense that you can only view a portion of it in a window at a time.

With tabs, you should be able to drag into the tab thus popping that page on top, or alternatively, grab and drag the tab into a new window.

Please only discuss the disadvantages here. If you like tabs, go the out of this thread.

I am discussing the disadvantages. I will now go the out of this thread.

J

[Developer]

Originally posted by kman42:
Don't go around saying something is unnecessary just because you don't use it or you have an alternate way of doing something. I, and many other people, find tabbed browsing an essential time-saver. If you don't like it don't use it. It's not as if they are popping up all over the place forcing themselves on you.

Tabs cause more confusion than the have benefits, so nobody should use them. I only say that to do good for you!
And I said only the disadvantages shall be discussed here, so you had no right to post in this thread anyway.

[gralem]

Originally posted by kman42:
What kind of a jackass one-sided discussion is "only discuss the disadvantages of tabs"? That's just ridiculous; it's not even a discussion if you only talk about the disadvantages. Talk about close-minded.

What kind of jackass one-sided idiot are you? EVERY SINGLE SAFARI THREAD so far has been COMPLETELY ONE-SIDED pro tabbed browsing.

I don't care about tabbed browsing. Unlike about 90% of the idiots out there, a single issue like tabbed browsing is not going to stop me from getting to know Safari in it's beta format. I'm 100% sure that tabbed browsing will be included in Safari-final, so I don't understand why so many idiots are so worried about it.

TABLESS BROWSING IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO.

---gralem

[Jan Van Boghout]

Sheesh, if you don't like tabbed browsing, don't use it...

[TC]

[*]Tabs are not intended to be used for web pages.


Says who? They work really well in Chimera especially for quickly browsing between multiple threads in a forum.

[*]Tabs can get very small if many of them are open.

Fair point and one which was already being discussed for Chimera. You could always open another window though.

[*]Tabs look ugly when used in a web browser.

Again, sounds like this is just opinion but you try to word it like a fact.

[*]It can confuse unexperienced users.

How? A user has to specifically choose to use Tabs. They have to say "open in a new tab" to use tabs. No web browser which has used tabs so far forces them on people. Unless someone specifically asks to use them the browser will continue to use multiple windows as normal.

[*]Tabs are unnecessary. You can as easily switch windows using the window/dock menu or command-~.

Normally when browsing the web you can do everything with a mouse click, hyperlinks, pull down menus. You only need to type if you are entering data into a form. If you are clicking to move between pages + already have your hand on the mouse it is easier to click on the tab for the specific page you want than to move between windows using CMD-~. With CMD-~ you can go too far and then have to go all the way throught your windows or add a shift to the combo. Just hitting a specific tab feels much easier to me. If the other method is easier for you then please continue to use it and ignore tabs.

[*]Tabbed browsing forces all panes to be in the same size.

Normally when you move between web pages the browser doesn't resize to fit the content, you have to tell it to resize. If you do have 2 pages that are totally different then don't put them in tabs, just use separate windows. That's the beauty of tabs you don't have to use them all the time.

[*]Tabbed browsing is modal. It's not possible to compare web pages or drag&drop text between them.

So open them in another window. Have you ever used a browser which uses tabs? It is always easy to ask the browser to open the current tab in a new window.

Please only discuss the disadvantages here. If you like tabs, go the out of this thread.

These forums don't work that way.

Finally, I would be very happy if Apple would come up with a better solution than tabs. The main thing I want is the ability to have multiple pages in one browser window. If they can't improve on tabs then I would be very happy to have them in safari.

[Gul Banana]

Originally posted by Developer:
Tabs cause more confusion than the have benefits, so nobody should use them. I only say that to do good for you!
And I said only the disadvantages shall be discussed here, so you had no right to post in this thread anyway.

...so I am officially the first person to realise this thread is satire/trolling, yes? That post was just too much.

[Cocoaholic]

I personally would like to see something like this:



(it's a bad Photoshop job, i know)

[Graymalkin]

I don't know that I hate tabs but I've come to the realization that they are unnecessary for web browsing. If you're on a system with X11 as the default GUI having tabs inside an app makes sense, keyboard shortcuts to switch windows are unreliable at best and non-existant at worst. Notably Mozilla, Konqueror, and Galeon support tabs. When you have a more consistant interface tabs are a bit redundant. Instead of requiring an application specific shortcut key (command+shift+] in Chimera) you can simply use the system default window switch shortcut key.

There's also the speed question with tabs, if opening a new window requires a new instantiation of all of a program's interface resources like non-Mac apps do having a tab open instead is a good idea. Having a globally available menubar means only a single instantiation of it is required no matter how many windows you have open. Safari opens a new window pretty speedily on even my old Powerbook, Chimera opening a tab takes at least twice as long (a new Chimera window takes about as long as a Safari one to open). To open a new tab the browser has to redraw the current view to include the tabs plus draw the page loading in the tab. A new window opening instead only requires a single page to be drawn in the new window, the current one needs no adjustment what so ever.

From a Mac perspective tabs are a interface liability. They don't serve much of a purpose on a Mac and I hope Safari doesn't include them, it would merely kludge the interface. If they are included I of course have the option of not using them but if they are included what keys and interface changes DO I have to adjust to or deal with to provide for tabs? Chimera gets command+w hijacked by tabs because tabs cause command+w to act inconsistantly.

I don't see why Safari MUST include tabs or people won't use it. Safari is simple and fast, all tabs are going to do is muck up that simplicity and speed. If you like tabs stick with Chimera. It isn't like this is browser war 3, the program with the most users will control all web standards. IE on Windows has already mucked that up for all of us using a non-MS browser on a non-MS operating system. If you like OW, Chimera, or Safari, use them, don't sign a petition to make Safari look just like Chimera because you like Chimera; use Chimera.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Gul Banana:
...so I am officially the first person to realise this thread is satire/trolling, yes?

A satirical counterpoint to the current overdose of pro tab threads, yes. Not trolling.

The same arguments don't have to be rehashed over and over again in dozens of threads.

[D'Espice]

Personally, I could live without tabs I simply don't want to. Tabs are something you can use but don't have to. If you don't like them 'how 'bout ignoring them.

But saying that nobody should use tabbed browsing just because you don't like it is silly. It's like me saying "Nobody should drive faster than 15 mph because I don't like driving faster"

[gralem]

I said 90% of the people are tabbing zealots (won't try safari). Sorry, the actual numbers are 80% tabbing zealots (acutally 20% non-tabbing zealots), 60% refusing to use Safari (my own spin on the numbers).

The polls show it:
macnn poll

or

asmack's poll

---gralem

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by gralem:
I said 90% of the people are tabbing zealots (won't try safari). Sorry, the actual numbers are 80% tabbing zealots (acutally 20% non-tabbing zealots), 60% refusing to use Safari (my own spin on the numbers).

The polls show it:
macnn poll

or

asmack's poll

---gralem

[dons alter ego tab-hater cloak and pointy hat]

Well, obviously zealots partake in polls and the silent, intelligent masses don't.

[removes uncomfortable, though cool, hater gear]

J

[gorgonzola]

This is totally unnecessary. There are around 40 billion threads on Safari and around 20 billion on Safari tabs. We don't need a new thread for every little point about tabs in Safari - use the existing threads to make your point.

Not to mention that this thread is oddly one-sided.