[undotwa]

IMHO, the Finder is crap.

We have two competing interfaces mixed:

Classic (icon, list view opening in new windows)
Column View (single window).

We need a new finder. Something that caters for everything in a single view. Because really, despite being 'computer literate' I still get lost in the Finder and I get frustrated when I try to find information.

Please note, this is not a complaint on the folder structure in Mac OSX, in fact i like it. We just need a Finder that suits this file structure.

What are some ideas we can think of? Mockups welcome. I will contribute when I finalize my idea.

[GoGoReggieXPowars]

I disagree that the two "competing" views need to be axed into one.
I use classic style 99% of the time, with column view reserved almost exclusively for my MP3 drive, where I'm mainly concerned with grabbing whole folders at a time.

How do you mean "lost?"

[sushiism]

no way the options are great, because both have advantages, I'd hate to browse in column view all the time or classic view all the time.
All major os's give users options like these, you could complain about windows though because list/small icons views are pretty much the same thing only ones useless

[tikki]

Why not just make image previews load faster, so Finder doesnt choke in my picture directories.

[hELLO wORLD]

I am agree, the Finder needs to be rethinked !!

I was looking for a great shortcut/access/dock app to access easily and quickly my apps, documents, etc... And I realized that the Finder is supposed to be that Application !!

However, the Finder does not help me : it's slow and as said undotwa, there are inconsistencies in windows behavior.
For exemple, you can save a window with its prefs and its size. But when opening a folder, it will open in the same window (that's ok, I wanted that) but the window size does not change...

In fact, having Classic and Next behavior is not a good thing, because the result is improductive. It's a bastard (the original word definition) system.

The Finder needs to be merged with the Dock !
One app, with powerfull navigation capabilities.
The files are well ordered in Mac OS X :
/Applications
/Documents
/Movies
/Pictures
/Music
...
In the root folder and in the users home folders.

Why not use this in a new Dock/Finder app ?
I mean a place in the Dock to access all apps, in /Applications and ~/Applications
Another place to access Utilities
Another place to access documents
Another to access movies, etc...

All built-in into the Dock, with elegant and fast access ?

Why not use new metadatas to determine the function of an App ? This metadata would be determined by the developer.
For exemple, Safari would have the Internet metadata tag.

I don't know, this is a first idea fron scratch. But something needs to be done, I am sure that it is a Finder/Dock fusion and a new concept of file access surely based on metadatas.

And to conclude, I don't want something like a Dock clone with customizable tabs. It is fastidious as hell to manage tabs, put new applications in the right tabs, etc... All of this should be transparent, fast and intutive.

[TheIceMan]

undotwa: Have you tried Path Finder? It's quite good. Offers more than what the current finder has. Here's a description of it:

Path Finder is a file browser for Mac OS X. Path Finder has many great features including: labels, view inisibles, compress/decompress, customized font and colors, desktop trash can, spring loaded folders, image converter, create disk images, add and remove thumbnail icons, Open with menu, view hex, copy paths, Secure delete, launch as root, find files, preview drawer, menu key editor, enhanced column view, create aliases and symbolic links, delete as root, open in terminal, and a built in application launcher. Previously named SNAX.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by hELLO wORLD:
The Finder needs to be merged with the Dock !
One app, with powerfull navigation capabilities.
The files are well ordered in Mac OS X :
/Applications
/Documents
/Movies
/Pictures
/Music
...
In the root folder and in the users home folders.

Why not use this in a new Dock/Finder app ?
I mean a place in the Dock to access all apps, in /Applications and ~/Applications
Another place to access Utilities
Another place to access documents
Another to access movies, etc...

All built-in into the Dock, with elegant and fast access ?

It sounds to me like what you want to do is put folders and such into the Dock and then use the menus. This is already quite doable; I have /Applications in mine (though I find I don't use it often).

[hELLO wORLD]

Originally posted by Millennium:
It sounds to me like what you want to do is put folders and such into the Dock and then use the menus. This is already quite doable; I have /Applications in mine (though I find I don't use it often).

Well, I now this is doable, but it is slow, and not very powerfull.

The idea is to have something built-in, with all the Aqua visual effects and finition.

I mean, an improved Dock, with much more features than this one.

The actual Dock is poor in features. It stores URLs (but who is using that ??? All URL icons are the same...), Apps, and doc/folders.
It also shows the running apps and minimized windows.

It needs improvments. A better way to store stuff (when There is 50 apps, 100 apps, it becomes too small !)
It needs to support third parties plug-ins !

Imagine a Dock able to show all Apps (foreground, background, processes, ...), able to set priorities (nice), like ProcessViewer, able to show an App memory usage and CPU usage. All of this should be configurable of course (set visible or not, etc...), or maybe visible when pressing a key combination, etc...

The Dock should be able to access all the disk in a convenient way, using MacOS X paths concepts and more...

Better use of the Dockling concept. I put the clock and iCal in the Dock, and it's really nice, but only with few Apps.
The Dock needs to be splittable, expendable, etc...

And it really needs to be fusionned with the Finder into one rethinked app.

[mitchell_pgh]

I only get lost when I'm in a folder called "Library" or something that has a VERY common name across the entire drive.

The only thing I wish Apple would "force" on us would be the idea that you should only place files and folders in your home directory. Too many users are placing crap all over the file system!!!

Grrr...

[Hi I'm Ben]

Finder works great for me... the only time it chokes is on large movies in Column view.

What kind of systems are you running?

btw I hate SNAX or whatever it's called now.. for me it runs slower then finder... But i've never gone the full out install of it where you replace the finder, if anyone has i'd love ot hear how it turned out. I also think the interface of it is ugly though.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I only get lost when I'm in a folder called "Library" or something that has a VERY common name across the entire drive.

The only thing I wish Apple would "force" on us would be the idea that you should only place files and folders in your home directory. Too many users are placing crap all over the file system!!!

Grrr...

You're kidding right? Only Admin types can place 'crap all over the file system' and even then, they have to sudo or log in as root for even more power...everyone else is limited to their Home directory.

[Xtraz]

You're kidding right? Only Admin types can place 'crap all over the file system' and even then, they have to sudo or log in as root for even more power...everyone else is limited to their Home directory.

I think 9 out of 10 people when making a account on their computer would make it an admin account. Afterall, its your computer and if you don't admin it, who will?

Also, it seems like admin accounts have abilities over normal users like copying files all over the place and messing with /Library and such. So admins can probably screw up a system pretty well too.

[sushiism]

im sorry but so many people use the dock wrong, your not supposed to put like all your apps in it or stupid crap like that, its meant for just your most used apps, if you wanna quickly get your other apps then drag an alias folder down there, or just press shift+cmd+a

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Xtraz:
I think 9 out of 10 people when making a account on their computer would make it an admin account. Afterall, its your computer and if you don't admin it, who will?

Also, it seems like admin accounts have abilities over normal users like copying files all over the place and messing with /Library and such. So admins can probably screw up a system pretty well too.

Well it's mitchell_pgh's fault if he's assigning admin access to all the other user accounts. If he doesn't want people to add apps to the App folder or mess with the global Library folder, he can do so by assigning normal user accounts that are strictly limited to their Home folders in terms of write access.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by sushiism:
im sorry but so many people use the dock wrong, your not supposed to put like all your apps in it or stupid crap like that, its meant for just your most used apps, if you wanna quickly get your other apps then drag an alias folder down there, or just press shift+cmd+a

Exactly...while there are many faults with the Dock, you can use it as efficiently as you want. The Dock was meant to hold your favorite apps. Not 'all' your apps.

I personally place favorite apps that also convey important info as badges in my Dock. Apps such as Mail, Proteus and iCal which all have dynamically changing useful info.

I still think minimized window to the Dock is a bad idea though...it pushes icons aside and shrink them to make place for minimized windows.

I'd much rather have the minimize-in-place feature that was present in 10.2 dev builds. It acts as a more powerful Windowshade (since it visually represents the window content as opposed to a Window-title that may not always represent the window content...and since it floats over everuthing...you'll never need to dig through windows to find the minimized windows you need) and doesn't mess with the Dock.

[GoGoReggieXPowars]

Originally posted by tikki:
Why not just make image previews load faster, so Finder doesnt choke in my picture directories.

That can be fixed by using an app like Graphic Converter or Photoshop to create the thumbnails. That way, the Finder doesn't have to make the preview itself, it just reads the one that's already located within the file itself.

[Graymalkin]

I run Path Finder (SNAX's progeny) in lieu of Apple's Finder and I find it much faster and far superior. The Application menu us a desperately needed feature in Finder or anything you want to replace Finder with. I really am not interested in loading my dock down withanything but my most often used applications, any time I want to run something else I don't want to have to freaking navigate the filesystem to open it. That was one of my main complaints of Classic MacOS. Even adding stuff to the Apple menu was a PITA, so much I just kept my Applications folder open as a tab on the desktop. Finder novices aren't going to know to either of these things to make their apps more accessible. I despise desktop icons as a general rule.

Finder doesn''t need to be rethought entirely and Dock and Finder DEFINITELY don't need to be integrated but Finder could do with some improvements. The ability to easily build custome menu bar items would be a start, Apple's reluctance to let people make menu bar items (has this policy been loosened at all?) is really anal. The feature existing isn't going to bother anyone who isn't experiences or well versed enough to use it. The same goes for Dock items and all the other haxies that would be really cool if ever included in the system.

[hELLO wORLD]

Well, I know the Dock is not supposed to contain all apps (I have 15 apps in it), but every day I have to go to the Application Folder to launch an App that is not in the Dock, or I have to go to my home folder to launch yet another App.

The idea is to improve the Dock to access ALL applications in a conveniant way.
Since the Finder is meant to access applications and files, I think it should be merged with the Dock.

Of course, windows to see files by size, date, icon, preview, etc... should be present, but integrated with the new Dock/Finder.

[as2]

The finder shortcut is very helpful... I've got it set to the scroll wheel button on my mouse, so I can open apps with only a couple of clicks.

Also, you can get the minimise in dock thing back, but I forget where the site is.... Search the forums, I'm sure you'll find it.

Adam

[King Bob On The Cob]

You are all concered with speed in the finder and you don't have launchbar? what's wrong with you people!?

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by hELLO wORLD:
It's a bastard (the original word definition) system.

No it's not - they were married!

[Cipher13]

The Finder works okay; it's just goddamn slow at every freaking thing it does.

[K++]

Originally posted by hELLO wORLD:
The Finder needs to be merged with the Dock !
One app, with powerfull navigation capabilities.
The files are well ordered in Mac OS X :
/Applications
/Documents
/Movies
/Pictures
/Music
...
In the root folder and in the users home folders.

Why not use this in a new Dock/Finder app ?
I mean a place in the Dock to access all apps, in /Applications and ~/Applications
Another place to access Utilities
Another place to access documents
Another to access movies, etc...

All built-in into the Dock, with elegant and fast access ?

The finder does do this. Turn on simple Finder and it does exactly what you want. And if gives you the option of running full finder whenever you like.

Personally I don;t see how you get lost in the finder. If you have the option to Always Open Folders in new window on then it will act exactly how you want since it has to make a new window for each folder.

People constantly bash the Finder for things that it does exactly how its supposed to. People please look through the preferences and view options first before you start bashing the Finder.

[K++]

Originally posted by Graymalkin:
I run Path Finder (SNAX's progeny) in lieu of Apple's Finder and I find it much faster and far superior.

PathFinder, though it has many nice features that Finder doesn't speed is not one of them. Finder is faster than PathFinder by a long shot. Perhaps your in 10.1 in which case you;d be right. However in 10.2 Finder runs circles around PathFinder.

Beyond that, as a Mac user you would think that a carefully crafted UI would be important to you. BUt here you are recommending the unbelievably ugly PathFinder over Finder. PathFinder is filled with way too many uneccesary buttons and doodads all over the place. It's preview is ugly. It's coloumn view is not column view but rather a whole bunch of List Views standing right next to each other. Drag & Drop is awful in that view since rather than progressing forward the paths progress down in those list views I was talking about. Overall SNAX was highly overrated and in 10.2 PathFinder is largely useless. I'll just stick with finder, and the Dock thank you. Now and then some LaunchBar as well.

[undotwa]

You guys are taking what I said the wrong way.

I want a NEW finder interface. Steve said himself, you need one interface, with little dramatic changes in interface which works for just about everyone (like the Dock).

We need a new view - to replace List, Icon, and Column. So instead of all this crap about some windows opening in Column, others in this - we have one view. Just to simply things. New users only have to learn ONE thing.

Yes I've tried SNAX and that's not what I'm after. SNAX is ugly, is a Finder clone and doesn't solve the problem at all.

[headbirth]

Why stick with old browsing concepts. This thread should be thinking of new more efficient methods to get at and organize data.

The Finder concept is VERY OLD and should definetly be replaced with something more efficient more 21st Century.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by headbirth:
Why stick with old browsing concepts. This thread should be thinking of new more efficient methods to get at and organize data.

The Finder concept is VERY OLD and should definetly be replaced with something more efficient more 21st Century.

Thankyou, this is precisely what I want this thread to be about.

[trusted_content]

One word:

BeOS


Now THAT was a file manager.

Discuss

[psu03bob]

Originally posted by hELLO wORLD:
For exemple, you can save a window with its prefs and its size. But when opening a folder, it will open in the same window (that's ok, I wanted that) but the window size does not change...

I for one don't want my finder window sizes shifting while I navigate the file system. The apps that already have shrinking and expanding windows are distracting enough already.

The Finder needs to be merged with the Dock ! ...

... All built-in into the Dock, with elegant and fast access ?

Sounds a bit too much like the windows start menu for my tastes. One of the strengths of the MacOS is that it is a "true" GUI, users actually interacting with the contents of their hard drive. While on other OSs that I have used the user is interacting with a visual representation of the progams and data on their computer, but do not know where these items are actually located in the file system. This makes it easy for newbies to get up and running quickly, but really prevents them from exploring their computer and learning how it really works. This is really noticible on a windows computer when a user only opens their documents from the start menu's "My Documents" sub-menu or the recent items menu in an app.
This is quick and easy, but what happens when they have used up all the space availible? For example what happens when there are enough documents in your Documents folder to fill the entire screen. A little arrow appears at the top or bottom of the list letting you scroll down, but what makes this obvious to an inexperienced use that their are more options availible. Usually a call to tech support or a computer geek friend looking something like this
User: "My file xxxxxxx disapeared!"
Techie: "Where did you save it?"
U: "I don't know."
T: "What was did you name it, we can search for it?"
U: "I don't remember, It was always just there in the start menu!"

This problem will only get worse as hard drives get larger, and people can keep decades worth of files on a single disk drive. I really hope Apple and other companies are thinking about how we will organize and view terrabites of data quickly and easily.

[undotwa]

We need an organization system which emphazes the UNIX directory structure:

~/ - Home
/ - System Disk, root
/Volumes (maybe renamed to /Disks ?) other mounted drives.

Instead of /Library being in root it is in /User/Library. Privelages are setup by default that admins can edit other users folders.

Everything UNIX is symlinked at startup to /System/UNIX (links get repaired every startup).

Kernal is still in /.

Preview is Inspector in a drawer (Get Info still available as seperate window).
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
| X - + ------------------------------Filer--------------------------- |
|----------------------------------------|------------------------------ |
| ---------------System Disk-------|------------Home----------|
Applications------------------------| Documents--------------|
Disks---------------------------------| Library--------------------|
Home (SYMLINK to ~/)----------|
Network-----------------------------|
System------------------------------|
Users--------------------------------|

[OreoCookie]

I think Apple is already working on something. Just think of a database enhanced filesystem where your ?views' are not folders anymore, but rather results of searches. An object (e. g. a file) could belong to numerous folders, so this object would show up when searching for either one of them. E. g. if you work on a presentation, you could have one ?folder' for presentations that you also send to your clients, ones that are finalized, and you could also have it in the ?working' directory, together with previous versions of it and others that you don't want to pubish. You could do that today with aliases, but you can do much more with it.

To conclude my point: I think, Apple is working on something that will take advantage of a new database-enhanced filesystem.

[moki]

Originally posted by undotwa:
We need a new view - to replace List, Icon, and Column. So instead of all this crap about some windows opening in Column, others in this - we have one view. Just to simply things. New users only have to learn ONE thing.

"One view to rule them all" eh? What exactly would this view be?

One of the powerful things about computers is being able to display same same data in different ways. I don't think eliminating that is a good idea.

However, I'm game... what specifically would you propose?

[willed]

Originally posted by undotwa:

Despite being 'computer literate' I still get lost in the Finder and I get frustrated when I try to find information.

Are you sure it's not just because you're stupid?

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by willed:
Are you sure it's not just because you're stupid?

I am not sure if that is what he meant. I got used to doing stuff on the command line, because it takes longer with the Finder.

Or if I copy large amounts (1+ gig) of data, the finder usually hangs or eats all system performance, while the good old cp -r ... does the job wasting less resources and more stabilly.

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I think Apple is already working on something. Just think of a database enhanced filesystem where your ?views' are not folders anymore, but rather results of searches. An object (e. g. a file) could belong to numerous folders, so this object would show up when searching for either one of them. E. g. if you work on a presentation, you could have one ?folder' for presentations that you also send to your clients, ones that are finalized, and you could also have it in the ?working' directory, together with previous versions of it and others that you don't want to pubish. You could do that today with aliases, but you can do much more with it.

To conclude my point: I think, Apple is working on something that will take advantage of a new database-enhanced filesystem.

This would certainly be the way to go. I hope Apple *is* working on something like this right now.

[sniffer]

Tried DosCommander, or what's its name again, anyone?

[hELLO wORLD]

All I wanted to say is summed up : the Finder navigation concept is old.

Why not something something like iTunes Library ?

Yes, I am agree, somethink more DATABASE, and integration with Dock would be awesome !

No I was not speaking about something like this ugly Windows TaskBar...

In fact, Sherlock needs to become a systemwide Framework, and it should be able to perfom all researches types. In the finder toolbar, the engine behind should be Sherlock, in Safari, the engine behind should be Sherlock, the same for iPhoto, etc...

Sherlock should become the Search Framework of Mac OS X, with always the ability to add plug-ins, but for all kind of searches.

And the Sherlock application should be removed, or be something more like AdressBook (which is on top of AdressBook systemwide Framework.

I am sorry I my text is difficult to read, but I am right now in a disturbing atmoshpere...

[nagha]

The idea that the Finder should be renovated is nothing new. There is, in my opinion, too much emphasis on files and folders and not on organization of the data in those files and folders.

I want MP3-tag style metadata and a Finder that uses this data in the same way that iTunes uses them to organize music files.

na

[int69h]

I sincerely hope Apple is working on a database oriented filesystem, or they're going to be playing catchup again. The GNU hippies and Microsoft are both hard at work trying to deliver this.

100th Post!

[TimmyDee51]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
I think Apple is already working on something. Just think of a database enhanced filesystem where your ?views' are not folders anymore, but rather results of searches. An object (e. g. a file) could belong to numerous folders, so this object would show up when searching for either one of them. E. g. if you work on a presentation, you could have one ?folder' for presentations that you also send to your clients, ones that are finalized, and you could also have it in the ?working' directory, together with previous versions of it and others that you don't want to pubish. You could do that today with aliases, but you can do much more with it.

To conclude my point: I think, Apple is working on something that will take advantage of a new database-enhanced filesystem.

I'm not sure where I ran across this concept before (certainly not MS), but I have heard of it. An interface guru or the like mentioned something like dynamic folders, similar to folder actions, that would update themselves based on a set of criteria. For example, all word processor documents that contained the phrase "office dinner" would be placed into that folder (or aliases of them). Sounds like a good idea that will take lots of processor power. That's ok, because my MDD could use something to do when it's just sitting there.

[undotwa]

Originally posted by TimmyDee51:
I'm not sure where I ran across this concept before (certainly not MS), but I have heard of it. An interface guru or the like mentioned something like dynamic folders, similar to folder actions, that would update themselves based on a set of criteria. For example, all word processor documents that contained the phrase "office dinner" would be placed into that folder (or aliases of them). Sounds like a good idea that will take lots of processor power. That's ok, because my MDD could use something to do when it's just sitting there.

Why would it use so much processing power? It's just consulting a file database.

I think computers have outgrown this archaic way of organizing files.

What will be a good design to either do either:

Provide a 'kiddie' or stupidifying visual front end with hundreds of file wizards etc. to the current file system (often considered the 'WINDOWS approach'.

Or we can abandon the traditional organization system and adopt something that:

•_Is more flexible
• Is quicker to find information
• Works better with larger amounts of files.
•_Is idiot proof (which computers nowadays need to be).

The Mac should emphasize this motto: It just works.

Can Apple invent a new way to organize files, that isn't based on the filing cabinet metaphor?