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MasonMcD · Jan 24, 2003, 03:26 PM

Prior to this new version 53 on Apple's dev site, there were instructions on how to roll your own modified Safari with a fresh-out-of-the-oven WebCore and JavaScriptCore.

That was v48, though, and the new v53 looks like it builds with a lot of private headers that weren't there in the v48 build. Has anyone played with the new stuff, and got it to work?

Millennium · Jan 24, 2003, 04:46 PM

I couldn't get 48 to build at all; I'm trying to build 53 now.

In theory, private headers shouldn't matter, at least as far as programs which use WebCore are concerned, including Safari. I'll report on my findings when the build is finished.

Millennium · Jan 24, 2003, 05:11 PM

Hmm... they don't work after all, it seems. The app starts to launch but then silently quits.

Real shame, that. Releasing code which can't be used doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Hyatt?

smeger · Jan 24, 2003, 05:12 PM

David Hyatt recently posted something on his blog saying that it's not currently building properly because of reliance on private headers - they're going to have a buildable version out "real soon now."

Scifience · Jan 24, 2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by smeger:
David Hyatt recently posted something on his blog saying that it's not currently building properly because of reliance on private headers - they're going to have a buildable version out "real soon now."

Where do you see this? His blog says nothing about it as far as I can see.

Millennium · Jan 24, 2003, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by smeger:
David Hyatt recently posted something on his blog saying that it's not currently building properly because of reliance on private headers - they're going to have a buildable version out "real soon now."

I think this is the buildable version he was talking about. It does build properly, whereas 48 (the previous version) did not.

Scifience · Jan 24, 2003, 05:33 PM

Last time I checked, bounce-bounce-quit was NOT building properly.

Maybe I should send an e-mail to Hyatt.

entrox · Jan 24, 2003, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Scifience:
Last time I checked, bounce-bounce-quit was NOT building properly. Maybe I should send an e-mail to Hyatt.

Last time *I* checked, building and running were not equivalent. Why not wait until a proper non-beta release before wasting developers' time?

Millennium · Jan 24, 2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by entrox:
Last time *I* checked, building and running were not equivalent. Why not wait until a proper non-beta release before wasting developers' time?

Entrox is correct; it builds but does not run. It looks as though Safari isn't recognizing it properly. But it does build properly; it looks as though the fault is in Safari rather than WebCore.

This, frankly, is stupid. How do they expect people to work with the code if there's no way to test their work by running it?

entrox · Jan 24, 2003, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
Entrox is correct; it builds but does not run. It looks as though Safari isn't recognizing it properly. But it does build properly; it looks as though the fault is in Safari rather than WebCore.

This looks just like binary incompatibility. They probably changed something in the APIs during development. Backwards compatibility is no priority (and would be a rather stupid thing to do) at this stage of development. It's not finisher after all.

This, frankly, is stupid. How do they expect people to work with the code if there's no way to test their work by running it?

You aren't supposed to do anything with the code right now anyway. David Hyatt himself stated that after some people tried using WebCore to render something. Apple will release the full framework called WebKit later this year (probably shortly after Safari goes 1.0), which you can then embed in your own applications.

The code was mainly released to comply with the license requirements of KHTML: all changes must be made public. It's of no real interest to anybody but Konqi hackers at the moment.

Just wait until everything gets stable - It's called `public beta' for a reason

MasonMcD · Jan 24, 2003, 08:20 PM

No, Hyatt said don't use WebCore and JavaScriptCore to roll your own web or web services app, but to wait for the Web Kit. He specifically pointed to the Slashdot tutorial for how to build a modified Safari in his blog.

If they are just releasing to satisfy LGPL, why 48 to 53 rather than 48 to 49, or 50, or 51, or 52?

entrox · Jan 25, 2003, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by MasonMcD:
No, Hyatt said don't use WebCore and JavaScriptCore to roll your own web or web services app, but to wait for the Web Kit. He specifically pointed to the Slashdot tutorial for how to build a modified Safari in his blog.

That is true, but nevertheless it shows, that the code is *not* for use by third-parties yet. If they change the API in the current WebCore a little (it is under heavy development after all), then you can't expect it to work with the Safari build, which links with the old version. This thing is called "binary incompatibility" and must be accounted for when writing libraries. Looking for backwards compatibility should only be maintained after the *real* release - not a public beta.

If they are just releasing to satisfy LGPL, why 48 to 53 rather than 48 to 49, or 50, or 51, or 52?

Don't confuse Safari and WebCore builds - last time I checked, WebCore is in public CVS. Every change made to it can be checked out by everyone, unlike Safari. So v48 to v53 was an *Safari* update (along with the current WebCore), which isn't licensed under (L)GPL.

Zadian · Jan 25, 2003, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by entrox:
So v48 to v53 was an *Safari* update (along with the current WebCore)

Is there a v53 Update to Safari?
All i found was a update to webcore to v53 and the safari download site still says v51 is the current version.

Millennium · Jan 25, 2003, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by entrox:
You aren't supposed to do anything with the code right now anyway. David Hyatt himself stated that after some people tried using WebCore to render something. Apple will release the full framework called WebKit later this year (probably shortly after Safari goes 1.0), which you can then embed in your own applications.

I wasn't talking about making apps which use WebCore. I was talking about modifying WebCore itself. Safari already uses WebKit, after all.

While of course it's not possible to make WebKit apps yet (with no SDK release), hacking on WebCore should be possible. Except that there is no way to test changes since Safari won't run, and thus there's not yet any point in doing so.

entrox · Jan 25, 2003, 07:25 AM

Is there a v53 Update to Safari?

No there isn't - I misremembered the version and meant v51.

I wasn't talking about making apps which use WebCore. I was talking about modifying WebCore itself. Safari already uses WebKit, after all.

I'm fully aware of that. The point I was trying to make is, that while it is certainly possible to modify the current WebCore, it isn't guaranteed to work with the last Safari release at all due to binary incompatibility.

While of course it's not possible to make WebKit apps yet (with no SDK release), hacking on WebCore should be possible. Except that there is no way to test changes since Safari won't run, and thus there's not yet any point in doing so.

Exactly - Safari is a closed-source product with a bundled WebCore (this seems to be the OSX equivalent of static linking). That means it is only guaranteed to work with that specific version. As I said before, they probably changed something in the interface and short of getting the source code to Safari, making the necessary changes and recompiling, there's not much you can do about it.

The reason I responded in the first place was to object to people pestering the Safari developers, who are busy enough, about making changes in the interface. All I want to say is: "Wait until the interface finalizes before hacking on WebCore/WebKit".