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Yoda's Erotic Piggyback · 01:28 PM

Believe it or not parts of Aqua already look dated. The Pinstripes are flat and boring and been around believe it or not for 4 years now.

Apple seems to be moving all it apps towards Brushed metal which I like but I think they have other looks that they can evolve to.

I always thought that iTunes would look great as a glossy white finish like the iPod. Even the window titles would look great glossy white rather then pinstripes.

Something like the bars on Apple's site:
www.apple.com/t/2002/us/en/i/1right.gif

On Apple's site today I also found this glass like button.

www.apple.com/powermac/images/buynow07092001.gif

What is Apple would subtly apply this type of look to parts of Aqua? Even the menus could have this look to it because of Quartz.

If not the glass look what about a bit more exciting gloss white?

Is everyone so thrilled with pinstripes that they want them to stick around, or are you hoping for a nice Aqua revision in 10.3?

Thoughts?

Zadian · Jan 25, 2003, 03:46 AM

Is everyone so thrilled with pinstripes that they want them to stick around, or are you hoping for a nice Aqua revision in 10.3?

Thoughts? [/B]

I actually like the pinstripes in Aqua.
They give the eye something to hold on. I think they are much friendlier to the eye than a large monochromatic area.

I don't think Apple will change Aqua in the next years or month.

Macpilot · Jan 25, 2003, 03:50 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yoda's Erotic Piggyback:
[B]Believe it or not parts of Aqua already look dated. The Pinstripes are flat and boring and been around believe it or not for 4 years now.

Well, I like the pinstripes. I think there should be an option for additional themes built into the System Preferences, though. Clean and simple.

And as far as I know, Aqua, in OS X form, has only been around since March 24, 2001. That makes it not even 2 years old yet. I don't count the Public Beta.

ARENA · Jan 25, 2003, 07:27 AM

I agree with Yoda, Aqua stripped look is getting dated. A glass and glossy white look would be great in the next Aqua revision.
I just hope they don't change all into brushed metal, i like it for some apps though.

Arkham_c · Jan 25, 2003, 07:58 AM

MacOS Classic looked essentially the same since System 7. Before that, it looked the same since the original MacOS (1.0).

Consistency of the interface is important. Once a standard has been decided, the only changes should be for improvements, and such changes should stick around henceforth once they're added.

Coxy · Jan 25, 2003, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by Arkham_c:
MacOS Classic looked essentially the same since System 7. Before that, it looked the same since the original MacOS (1.0).

That's not entirely true, and besides, it was Mac OS 8 that introduced Platinum, not System 7.

ZackS · Jan 25, 2003, 12:43 PM

Navigation Services and Appearance Manager were available for 7. They made 7 almost look like 8.

Developer · Jan 25, 2003, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by ZackS:
Navigation Services and Appearance Manager were available for 7. They made 7 almost look like 8.

Navigation Services came with 8.1 (or 8.5?). It might be that it was available for 8, but not for 7. Appearance Manager was also not available for 7.

starfleetX · Jan 25, 2003, 01:03 PM

Originally posted by ZackS:
Navigation Services and Appearance Manager were available for 7. They made 7 almost look like 8.

Incorrect. These technologies were introduced in Mac OS 8.

Yoda's Erotic Piggyback · Jan 25, 2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Arkham_c:

Consistency of the interface is important. Once a standard has been decided, the only changes should be for improvements, and such changes should stick around henceforth once they're added.

So what is such a big change about making the title bars white and glossy from flat pinstripes?

Developer · Jan 25, 2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Yoda's Erotic Piggyback:
So what is such a big change about making the title bars white and glossy from flat pinstripes?

First, all Macintosh windows had pinstripes since day one, so it has to stay that way.
Second, until all Carbon applications are switched to the new HIView architecture, the window contents have to be a repeating pattern or solid color.

Yoda's Erotic Piggyback · Jan 25, 2003, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Developer:
First, all Macintosh windows had pinstripes since day one, so it has to stay that way.
Second, until all Carbon applications are switched to the new HIView architecture, the window contents have to be a repeating pattern or solid color.

You know how easy it is to repeate the white gloss?

So you think the usibility is just going to fly right out the door if Apple loses those silly pinstripes? Look at the dock, that is brand spanking new.

Also the change from System 7.5 to 8.0 is a much bigger leap then simply losing pinstripes.

tikki · Jan 25, 2003, 02:25 PM

Regardless of whether or not pinstripes are dated (I dont think they are personally), it still looks better than Luna.

Developer · Jan 25, 2003, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by Yoda's Erotic Piggyback:
You know how easy it is to repeate the white gloss?

Not easy I would say (impossible in fact).
If you think it is, post a mockup.

clod · Jan 25, 2003, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Macpilot:
And as far as I know, Aqua, in OS X form, has only been around since March 24, 2001. That makes it not even 2 years old yet. I don't count the Public Beta.

Yoda is talking about the pinstripes that were on Apple products such as the old iMac. That is 4 years old.

I think it's time to ditch the stripes just like Apple did on their hardware. It is getting old.

Yoda's Erotic Piggyback · Jan 25, 2003, 02:51 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Macpilot:

And as far as I know, Aqua, in OS X form, has only been around since March 24, 2001. That makes it not even 2 years old yet. I don't count the Public Beta.

Actually they have been around since DP3 in 1998 and steve showed them off at MacWorld in 1998 or 1999.

Why wouldn't the beta count? The fact is everyone saw the tired old strips back in 1999! That gave MS time to copy and improve with Luna (I think the SILVER bars in Luna look better then pinstripes).

JLL · Jan 25, 2003, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by Yoda's Erotic Piggyback:
Actually they have been around since DP3 in 1998 and steve showed them off at MacWorld in 1998 or 1999.

2000.

rob5243 · Jan 25, 2003, 03:03 PM

I like the pinstripes. They add some texture.

Millennium · Jan 25, 2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by starfleetX:
Incorrect. These technologies were introduced in Mac OS 8.

True, but if I recall correctly, Apple actually back-ported them somewhere into the System 7 range. I don't think it went back further than 7.5, though.

Even if they weren't backported, the Platinum appearance had been around for much longer, since the days of 7.1 or so, when the first Copland screenshots came about. These were pretty quickly introduced into an extension called Aaron, which would later evolve into Kaleidoscope. Another control panel called Church Windows also picked up the Platinum appearance.

So people really have been using Platinum for a long time, if you think about it.

Yoda's Erotic Piggyback · Jan 25, 2003, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:

So people really have been using Platinum for a long time, if you think about it.

Ya I was using Aaron in 1996. When OS8 came out I really didn't care anymore.

superblue · Jan 25, 2003, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Developer:
First, all Macintosh windows had pinstripes since day one, so it has to stay that way.

And they all had smiley Macs at startup too

nothing HAS to stay the same!

moonmonkey · Jan 25, 2003, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by ZackS:
Navigation Services and Appearance Manager were available for 7. They made 7 almost look like 8.

are you blind?

bradoesch · Jan 25, 2003, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
are you blind?

I don't think he's blind. I have a Mac running 7.5.3 with the Appearance extension and it looks similar to OS 8.

Millennium · Jan 26, 2003, 12:28 AM

A glassy Aqua would look really good, but only if it were done right. And that's actually a problem. To get glass right, you have to be able to apply gradients to windows. on a dynamic basis, and the simple gradient we see in Brushed Metal won't cut it for that. Ask Layne Karkruff; it took him a long time to perfect it, and he just does static images. Imagine the work which would have to take place in a dynamic environment, such as a GUI.

This would slow down the GUI even more than the current striped pixmaps do. Glossy white "plastic" would be somewhat easier, but it'd still cause some slowdowns, and it'd burn people's eyes out even faster than the stripes do now. I think that's one of the bigger reasons for the stripes; by breaking up the white, the interface isn't quite so painful to look at.

Yoda's Erotic Piggyback · Jan 26, 2003, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
Brushed Metal won't cut it for that. Ask Layne Karkruff; it took him a long time to perfect it, and he just does static images. Imagine the work which would have to take place in a dynamic environment, such as a GUI.

Dear god I hope we get nothing that looks like Layne's stuff. All we would need a Unicorn in the dock.

undotwa · Jan 26, 2003, 04:08 AM

Apple released the Appearance for System 7.1 and later and Navigation Services for System 7.5.5 and later.

That is fact.

Here are the files for System 7 users:

AppearanceLib: http://support.wolfram.com/mathemati...ension.sea.hqx

NavigationLib:
http://emulation.net/nintendo/navigation.sit.hqx

undotwa · Jan 26, 2003, 04:15 AM

I think Apple should change to a glassier look.

The widgets can stay the same. Just replace the the pinstripes with the glassy look. The glass can be shiny, yet not too shiny and it can be easy on the eyes by applying various quartz shadows (shadows rendered on the fly in the texture would be really really cool).

Glassy theme wouldn't be so difficult for themers. I like the current widgets, but the pinstripes can get boring. Yet the pinstripes are better than anything else we've got so far.

Also in my honest opinion all windows should behave like brush metal windows. Click and drag anywhere on the window and titlebar merged in with the window.

This way, people will have less to complain about brush metal - the only difference between the two is the texture, ones a glassy look, and the other's a metally look.

blueskyguy · Jan 26, 2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Yoda's Erotic Piggyback:
Dear god I hope we get nothing that looks like Layne's stuff. All we would need a Unicorn in the dock.

That pretty much sums up my mission in life: glassies for the masses and a unicorn in every dock.

Layne
(As soon as I learn to draw a unicorn.)

Millennium · Jan 26, 2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by blueskyguy:
That pretty much sums up my mission in life: glassies for the masses and a unicorn in every dock.

Layne
(As soon as I learn to draw a unicorn.)

Um... dude... excuse me while I go into fanboy mode.

OMG I've been using your stuff for years I remember Scrollites 1 and u r so KEWL!!!!!!!!

(actually, wait a sec; is that fanboy mode?)

In all seriousness, welcome aboard! I really have been using your stuff since Scrollites 1; I've even registered a few of your DC volumes. You do awesome work. I hadn't seen the "Empty Warhead" pic before; while I can't say I agree with the political sentiment, it's still hilarious, and a good concept. I might go ahead and use it as my desktop picture anyway.

Apple Pro Underwear · Jan 26, 2003, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by Yoda's Erotic Piggyback:
Dear god I hope we get nothing that looks like Layne's stuff. All we would need a Unicorn in the dock.

hahahahahahahaha

i think he's a great PS illustrator with great skills, but maybe a departure from that "style" would be good for him just to clear that stuff out of his brain for a day

Yoda's Erotic Piggyback · Jan 26, 2003, 02:02 PM

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
hahahahahahahaha

i think he's a great PS illustrator with great skills, but maybe a departure from that "style" would be good for him just to clear that stuff out of his brain for a day

Yes he is an awesome artist, but it just reminds me of that painting in the Simpsons where they show the unicorn in the foreground looking at the polluted city and the unicorn is thinking to himself "why" with a tear running down his face.

I think it is just the jewel, wings, planets look that is not my style. Well, not since the 80's

Cadaver · Jan 26, 2003, 02:22 PM

I don't have any problem with Apple making the Aqua interface more subtle, but it needs to remain reasonably stable. Otherwise, applications may, depending on how they were coded, look too different from the OS and other applications.

...Like when they went from plastic-y looking buttons and tabs in 10.1 to glassy buttons/tabs in 10.2. It was a subtle change and didn't radically alter the look of the OS. Removing a feature as prominent as the stripes might be too radical of a change all at once.

Plus, Apple doesn't need to piss off developers with yet another radical change

Remember what happened when an older System 7 app didn't support the appearance manager in 8.5... they would look a little odd. White pulldown menus instead of gray, differences in button appearances, etc.

blueskyguy · Jan 26, 2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
Um... dude... excuse me while I go into fanboy mode.

OMG I've been using your stuff for years I remember Scrollites 1 and u r so KEWL!!!!!!!!

(actually, wait a sec; is that fanboy mode?)

In all seriousness, welcome aboard! I really have been using your stuff since Scrollites 1; I've even registered a few of your DC volumes. You do awesome work. I hadn't seen the "Empty Warhead" pic before; while I can't say I agree with the political sentiment, it's still hilarious, and a good concept. I might go ahead and use it as my desktop picture anyway.

Thanks Millenium. Maybe you'll like the Valentine pic better, later this week or early next.

As for the comments from the other members, I'm in agreement with some of them...subtlety has never been my strong point and to be sure, there's a significant retro look to my style. I will resist however the suggestion regarding 'a departure from that "style'". I'm not looking to please everyone, and I certainly understand if it doesn't suit your preference. Sometimes it hardly suits mine, and I guess that's why I keep going...trying to get it right!

Anyhoo, I didn't plan to stick around here, just wanted to drop in and say hi y'all and be slightly mischievous.

Layne

dfiler · Jan 26, 2003, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
A glassy Aqua would look really good, but only if it were done right. And that's actually a problem. To get glass right, you have to be able to apply gradients to windows. on a dynamic basis, and the simple gradient we see in Brushed Metal won't cut it for that. Ask Layne Karkruff; it took him a long time to perfect it, and he just does static images. Imagine the work which would have to take place in a dynamic environment, such as a GUI.

This would slow down the GUI even more than the current striped pixmaps do. Glossy white "plastic" would be somewhat easier, but it'd still cause some slowdowns, and it'd burn people's eyes out even faster than the stripes do now. I think that's one of the bigger reasons for the stripes; by breaking up the white, the interface isn't quite so painful to look at.

I would have agreed with you last year. But with QE, we get live compositing almost for free. As to lighting gradients? Hmmm... seems like we could offload the lighting to the GPUs as well.

Just imagine, we could finally have puslating red or yellow allerts. A little siren would rise from the dock, with rotating lights, causing reflections all across the desk top.

System error could pulse the diffused ambient lighting, also glinting differently off our luscious aqua.

The coolest thing about all this? We can have it at nearly no CPU cost. Quartz Extreme is going to blow everyone's mind...

Mediaman_12 · Jan 26, 2003, 05:38 PM

This is the sort of thing you cando with a 3D GPU rendered GUI. Make a flat interface better with the 3D tec, (MS's idea of a 3D OS that looks sort of like a Quake3 map, with panes of information along walls. Is just to dumb to imagine).
Using a 3D rendering engine to draw a Aqua 'like' interface could be amazing. Windows that a out of focus could actually look out of foocus (like in a photograph).

Chris Grande · Jan 26, 2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Cadaver:
White pulldown menus instead of gray, differences in button appearances, etc.

Reminds me of Quark...

intastella · Jan 26, 2003, 06:04 PM

If anyone thinks ditching stripes would be to "drastic" a change, just download Smoothstripes Max's themes.

I think it is a much needed change.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Jan 26, 2003, 06:41 PM

Ya if someone booted their computer and saw this Apple's tech support would be overwhelmed with panic

jdbon · Jan 27, 2003, 07:49 PM

Perhaps a talented photoshop user could make a mockup of a stripeless, glossy aqua. In addition i would like to see what aqua would look like with the recessed, brushed metal widgets (in a stripeless glossy aqua)

ARENA · Jan 27, 2003, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by jdbon:
Perhaps a talented photoshop user could make a mockup of a stripeless, glossy aqua. In addition i would like to see what aqua would look like with the recessed, brushed metal widgets (in a stripeless glossy aqua)

Well i think Max's SmoothStripes theme with the sunken widgets would be great...for the glossy white part, the menubar could be glassier, like in the Cappuccino theme by Swiz.

That would be a good start...i still expect to get this kind of stuff from Apple in the next Aqua revision and not only by third party themes.

Pepi Picklefoot · Jan 27, 2003, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
Windows that a out of focus could actually look out of foocus (like in a photograph).

While this would be neat, I don't think it would be wise to make background windows go out of focus (like in a photograph) for the very obvious reason that background windows convey important info and can't possibly be blurred out just for fun.

undotwa · Jan 27, 2003, 10:34 PM

Out of focused windows: great idea.

And for the smooth stripes theme: It's too bland. We need a more glassy look to it.

jdbon · Jan 27, 2003, 11:10 PM

I think glassy is a good idea, however I don't like the "tube" look which many themes use. The windows should appear flat with a slight sheen.

Another idea would be a clear lucite look like the edge of a FP iMac. The edges would have a slight bevel with shadow to simulate a clear glassy look.

Superchicken · Jan 28, 2003, 12:42 AM

lets see the general rule of thumb is that a computer even as a PC should not be obsolete until at least 2 years in the Mac world it's 4.
Unless you could tell the finder to NOT do this stuff, for those of us without amazing graphics cards... I think it would be dumb for apple to put this in. that said, a year after the PPC 970 has been out, and once apple starts putting out better and better graphics cards in their machines... I would say that uhh anyone remember what major 3D graphic tittle Apple bought? hehe me thinks Shake will bring some interesting things to the GUI... but not for a bit... we'd need significantly more powerful machines for a lota these things... or so I'd think.
My iMac currently lags under OS X... i think Mac users would cry bloody murder if before 2005 apple did anything like what's been suggested. once the 970 has been out for a year and is running in the power macs and power books, and possibly lower power versions in the i and eMacs and iBooks, THEN MAYBE I would say this would be reasonable... yeah uhh

As for glossy glassy... uhh.. simply beccause you want something new and flashy doesn't mean the rest of us should have to put up with it. Aqua is Aqua, Platinum was Platinum... and interfaces tend to stick so that people arn't constantly going HUH!? Expect small tweaking but uhh pin stripes are nice, you don't like em get rid of em with a third party app...
I think right now the general opinion is that OS X is still not zippy enough on old machines so why do you wanna bloat the OS more than it is right now when everyone else is calling for better multi threading and all that... I would preffer apple to spend more time on the underpinnings until we have hardware that can afford the bloat more.

Disgruntled Head of C-3PO · Jan 28, 2003, 12:50 AM

I don't think removing the strips or changing the Gel-caps to glass would hit the CPU anymore then it does now.

moonmonkey · Mar 19, 2003, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
This is the sort of thing you cando with a 3D GPU rendered GUI. Make a flat interface better with the 3D tec, (MS's idea of a 3D OS that looks sort of like a Quake3 map, with panes of information along walls. Is just to dumb to imagine).
Using a 3D rendering engine to draw a Aqua 'like' interface could be amazing. Windows that a out of focus could actually look out of foocus (like in a photograph).

Apple has registered a patent on interface blurring and focusing.

KidRed · Mar 19, 2003, 09:37 PM

Pinstripes? I haven't had those nthanks to smoothstripes. The white is annoying, I loved platinum, no matter how flat and boring it was. I always went back after flirting with the latest Abbie Wong theme.

The glassy would rock if it had some contrasting color or adrk grey to go with it. I'd prefer brushed metal to pinstripes anyday. Also, I love the buttons in iPhoto, the light grey embossed ones, they look nice with the brushed metal as opposed to the glossy grey/aqua mouseover Safari ones.

Terri · Mar 19, 2003, 09:46 PM

Guess it is time to go buy even darker sunglasses for working at my Mac OS X machine.

Maybe we could go beyond gloss white and have UV strips. Tan and design at the same time.

::maroma:: · Mar 19, 2003, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by intastella:
If anyone thinks ditching stripes would be to "drastic" a change, just download Smoothstripes Max's themes.

I think it is a much needed change.

Word up. Apple should buy SmoothStripes from Max, variations and all. I use it and will never go back to regular Aqua. And for the record, I think white is just too much on the eyes. The softer, more neutral grey is a better choice, IMO.

Nonsuch · Mar 20, 2003, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Pepi Picklefoot:
While this would be neat, I don't think it would be wise to make background windows go out of focus (like in a photograph) for the very obvious reason that background windows convey important info and can't possibly be blurred out just for fun.

Exactly. Having only one readable window at a time is a completely stupid idea.