[Developer]

Let's use this thread to discuss the user interface of the new iLife applications.

Let me start with sheets in brushed metal. They used to look crappy since a brushed metal window doesn't have a visible title bar. Now Apple has solved the problem very elegantly. Sheets do now come out of the nothing on top of the window. Looks as crappy as before and prevents the window from being dragged.

Another thing in iMovie: The window can't be shrinked to leave enough space for the Dock. But the zoom window widget can, so it's an unnecessary limitation.

One more thing: The scrollbar in the list of titles is disabled. The only way to scroll through all title effects is using they up/down keys.

[JLL]

Neither iMovie or iPhoto are using the built in brushed metal. They both have a custom hack which looks terrible.

[Judge_Fire]

There is some inconsistency between the way iTunes and iPhoto handle their data locations.

In iTunes the location of the audio files can be set through the preferences menu.

iPhoto 2.0 now allows a user set location, but the Find dialog can be invoked only by first quitting the app, then moving the library, then re- launching the app.

J

[Developer]

Originally posted by JLL:
Neither iMovie or iPhoto are using the built in brushed metal. They both have a custom hack which looks terrible.

I don't notice much difference. Maybe the window widgets are a pixel lower than usual, but they are the new embedded ones.
iMovie has too much brushed area in my opinion. Brushed Metal looks too "heavy" then.

But you made a good point. Maybe the fact that it's a custom appearance is the reason for the totally wrong sheet.

[JLL]

Originally posted by Developer:
I don't notice much difference.

The border is a thick gray line in iPhoto/iMovie instead of a rounded metal appearance.

The text is "lowered" into the metal in iPhoto/iMovie instead of black with a slight shadow.

The metal is coarser in iPhoto/iMovie and has a banded artifact.

[Mediaman_12]

Originally posted by JLL:
The border is a thick gray line in iPhoto/iMovie instead of a rounded metal appearance.

The text is "lowered" into the metal in iPhoto/iMovie instead of black with a slight shadow.

The metal is coarser in iPhoto/iMovie and has a banded artifact.

This is a Good point. I thought we had seen the end of the 'including all the metal in the app' concept with the 'Textured window' option in Jaguar's Interface Builder.
What is the point of Apple having this to ensure 'consistancy' between all 'real world object' applications if they don't use it themselves.
<Mediaman gives up all hope of the next verion of iTunes also using the standard skin to themes work properly>
and what's with that nasty compression artifact in the new apps <ugh>

[Nathan Adams]

Why does iPhoto and iMovie have custom metal, instead of the 'themed' option in jaguar?
Because the requirements for the 2 programs are OS X 10.1.5 or higher

So in order to have the programs brushed metal on 10.1 systems - they have no choice to go for a custom scheme.

[besson3c]

Nathan,

Brushed metal was present in 10.1, and seems unchanged.

[Chris Grande]

Originally posted by besson3c:
Nathan,

Brushed metal was present in 10.1, and seems unchanged.

Nope, there was no brushed metal in 10.1, there were however apps that had their own brushed metal (QuickTime, iPhoto, iTunes). In 10.2 there was a system wide appearence created called textured window that is used by iChat, Address Book, iSync, iCal. These new apps (iMovie 3, iPhoto 2, iTunes 3, iDVD 3) all have their own built in themes that are diffrent from the OS theme. So while the OSX guys are tweaking the metal look to make it look better (ie. the sunken widgets) these apps have to be manually edited by their respective teams to get these changes. For example. iTunes 3 and QuickTime 6.1 still have the old style close/min/max widgets.

[Parky]

Another difference can be found in the way the apps display iTunes music.

In iDVD you get to see the type of playlist, you can see if they are smart or normal playlists. This makes it look and feel much more like iTunes.

In iMovie and iPhoto you get a drop down list of the playlists (you do not know what type they are), and then a list of the tracks in each playlist.

Why the inconsitency ? Do these people not work together and define working standards and designs.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Parky:
Why the inconsitency ?

Want another one? In iPhoto the play button for iTunes music toggles between a play/pause icon. In iMovie it switches between pressed/released appearance.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by JLL:
The border is a thick gray line in iPhoto/iMovie instead of a rounded metal appearance.

The text is "lowered" into the metal in iPhoto/iMovie instead of black with a slight shadow.

The metal is coarser in iPhoto/iMovie and has a banded artifact.

http://lunddal.dk/macnn/metal.jpg

Also the window lighting direction is 180 degree while all real brushed metal app are 90 degree.

I agree with you, it looks terrible

[Synotic]

Originally posted by Developer:
Want another one? In iPhoto the play button for iTunes music toggles between a play/pause icon. In iMovie it switches between pressed/released appearance.

Yeah.. I don't like that. I've also modded everything to remove the "rollovers". I think they look lame and aren't anywhere else.

Anyways... is it actually possible to make it "real" brushed metal? I've messed with it but I can't figure if it's possible.

[ZackS]

I would just like to note: a conversation like this has probably never, and probably never will occur on a Microsoft Windows message board.

Draw whatever conclusions you like from that statement but my conclusion is: "Mac users are WAY too easily pissed off By trivial UI inconstancies."

[nickm]

Ha! I just posted the following in another iMovie thread, before reading this:

The brushed metal window is an abomination. Metallifizer can't remove it, because they aren't using the standard API for creating brushed metal It seems they've created a special window class for this app, and probably iPhoto 2. This is so screwed up. If you drag the window by the title bar area, it drags right away. If you try to drag it by some other brushed metal area, it doesn't immediately drag, but then it jumps to the space
you dragged it.

If you feel comfortable doing so, open up iMovie 3 in Interface builder and behold the class that is "IMMetalWindow". I can't believe Apple spent two years rewriting iMovie in Cocoa, when these features could probably have been added to the perfectly good iMovie 2 in 9 months.

[undotwa]

Apple did this to make the apps look and work the same in 10.1 and 10.2. Good reason, although it has a toll on us 10.2 users which prefer Apple uses the System option

[DavidHossack]

Argh!

OK. Apple's site and all the screenshots of iPhoto2 shows two really major interface problems. Spanks of no decent testing.

In their screenshots the info button (silver at the left) is in the old iTunes 2 and iPhoto 1 system but all the rest are the new style. Also the recess at the right of the viewer window is half way accross the silver border. This is on all the shot of this software I have seen.

Is the release the same? I will only download it on Monday when I get to college again. Too big.

[Bollaroid II]

Originally posted by ZackS:
I would just like to note: a conversation like this has probably never, and probably never will occur on a Microsoft Windows message board.

Draw whatever conclusions you like from that statement but my conclusion is: "Mac users are WAY too easily pissed off By trivial UI inconstancies."

actually, there is an industry-wide movement to getting the user/client more involved in the development of applications. modern systems and design theory says this is the best way (the only way) but its implementation (the theory) has not always been up to the standard of the theory.

however, businesses are realising how much value info obtained from customers is which is why the call center is suddenly getting more (with much more to come) attention because that is a companies only direct contact with the customer.

software is being developed that is capable of taking info gathered by customer service reps and call centers and creating business structure/sence out of it (coz it is gathered informally) then making this available to other departments within the organisation.

if you think what is being said here is going unnoticed by Apple then you either do not have a good memory of the sheer number of improvements that showed up, are showing up (and will continue to show up) in X as a result of public feedback at their site and in forums.

case in point:
==============
1. recall that the head of quicktime development was here about a year and a half ago soliciting ideas and participating in discussion. just because there is no-one here who formally introduces themselves as an Apple employee does not mean that like Sal did does not mean they are not "listening" to us.
2. remember Steve Jobs made fun of the accuracy (or lack of it) of rumor sites at MacWorld which means someone there must be reading/lurking/participating (under false name possibly)
3. notice how Apple is one of the fastest to respond to breaches of issues/products it does not want made public. someone must be paying attention.

to use something that was mentioned in this thread - the issue of the inconsistencies between the play buttons in the apps. this is a valid User Interface issue - not something trivial as "some" would suggest.

just like expert physicists spend their time, say, studying the behaviour of some objects UI experts spend their time looking out for issues like this. i hope you are not one of those people who concider nutritional science "sissy" as opposed to REAL, HARDCORE sciences like biochemistry or physics coz thats how you come across when you say the issues brought up here are trivial. just coz we are doing it informally here does not maen there is'nt an actual science behind Human To Computer Interfaces.

[JLL]

The strange thing is that (besides the gumdrops) iTunes actually look exactly like a 'real' brushed metal app.

[funkboy]

Trivial GUI inconsistencies these are not. The Mac's whole ease-of-use is based firmly on consistency - having a menu bar always at the top, having certain buttons in certain locations, using using certain visual cues, etc.

If the play button in QuickTime Player works differently than the play button in iMovie, it confuses me, because I figure, "okay, I can stop the movie by hitting the pause button... but not in iMovie, in there I just click play again."

Young people are, overall, more comfortable with computer GUIs than older folks, but there should be no challenge for anyone to use a computer. I see older people having trouble enough figuring out which button is play or pause on a modern CD player - put it on a computer and everything becomes twice as disorienting.

As I've learned, Apple is producing apps right now with very very little Quality Assurance testing - this would include GUI consistency, I imagine. They're doing it to make it look pretty, which even I can admire for some reasons... but the image inconsistencies present in Apple's iApps is just plain insane. Someone needs to get a kick in the butt for these problems... or even better, someone needs to actually fix them!

[funkboy]

Originally posted by undotwa:
Apple did this to make the apps look and work the same in 10.1 and 10.2. Good reason, although it has a toll on us 10.2 users which prefer Apple uses the System option

Good reason? Doesn't Apple want everyone to upgrade to 10.2? Why not make iLife be one of those 10.2 killer apps? Seems counter-intuitive to their whole strategy of actually making money...

I wonder if, by any strange chance, we could be seeing a "newer" version of the API embedded completely in these new iLife apps? Maybe something about their programming makes resizing or other actions quicker, or overall improves the backend somehow.

[DavidHossack]

The only full real brushed metal apps are iTunes (carbon) and iCal (cocoa). Look at the hilights, recesses aand other stuff. They look the same. Unlike Safari, Address Book, iPhoto, iMovie, and I assume iDVD. It can't be difficult to use the UI coding in iCal on iPhoto and iMovie and Address Book etc. It has been done in Cocoa and iTunes could be recreated easily in IB with the correct Libraries. (iCal cannot be opened in IB without the WR (White Rabbit) palette.

The only thing missing in Cocoa is the small recessed window widgets-There are none available. Try making a Textured Utility window in IB.

[DavidHossack]

Any fancy removing the brushed metal from the iApps. It was done for iPhoto 1 I seem to remeber so should be possible. Then all that is needed is the window moved up in IB to remove the title bar and the textured window option selected and we get great apps that are more consistant.

Anybody noticed if the silver buttons are correct on the left hand side yet in iPhoto?

[JLL]

Originally posted by DavidHossack:
The only full real brushed metal apps are iTunes (carbon) and iCal (cocoa). Look at the hilights, recesses aand other stuff. They look the same. Unlike Safari, Address Book, iPhoto, iMovie, and I assume iDVD. It can't be difficult to use the UI coding in iCal on iPhoto and iMovie and Address Book etc. It has been done in Cocoa and iTunes could be recreated easily in IB with the correct Libraries. (iCal cannot be opened in IB without the WR (White Rabbit) palette.

The only thing missing in Cocoa is the small recessed window widgets-There are none available. Try making a Textured Utility window in IB.

iTunes is not a real brushed metal app.

Address Book, Backup, iCal, iChat, iSync, Safari, Calculator are.

[JLL]

Originally posted by DavidHossack:
Anybody noticed if the silver buttons are correct on the left hand side yet in iPhoto?

iPhoto 2 uses old style buttons.

[Developer]

Originally posted by JLL:
iPhoto 2 uses old style buttons.

Sometimes it's Aqua buttons, sometimes brushed metal, sometimes it's recangular buttons with rounded corners and Aqua shading (Addess Book), sometimes with yin/yang shading, sometimes it's Aqua push buttons with yin/yang shading (now in iMovie).

It's almost as if Apple is running an internal competition which team can design the coolest button appearance.

I'm glad third party developers didn't join the challange yet.

[Mediaman_12]

Right. I have just been on a 'UI element & implementation' voyage of discovery within iPhoto 2. The Brushed apperance is implemented in the same way as in iTunes, you can change most things, but the (badly banding) 'gradient' must remain (even though there is a .tif file that appears to be it). Applying the 'Textured window' option (to the ArchiveDocument.nib) in interface builder does nothing, it's covered over by the 'gradient', even if all the 'Brushed effect's' .tif files are replaced with Transparrent Tiff's.
(to much mucking about with the .nib will also makes the app 'unexpectedly quit' almost instantly.)

So unless somone can hack the 'gradient' out it looks like we may be stuck with the 'sub-standard' Brushed look.

[dfiler]

This is what i love about the mac community. We consistently demand perfection and are willing to debate how to get there.

Ever notice how you're willing to say the meanest things to people in your family? We are most critical of people who we care the most about. It doesn't mean we don't love our siblings... The same is true of OS X users. We are willing to pick apart the GUI while still considering it the best one available.

There have been some excellent comments:
- Play buttons should work the same in all media apps.
- play list navigation should be consistent
- zoom widget and resize thumb functionality need to be polished up a bit more
- metalized sheets still need work

Of these, i think the last is most significant. iMovie sheets pop out of thin air and obscure the window title. You can't even move the window while the sheet is down. This is horrible. Not only is the title not visible, but the window can't be easily moved for researching similar file names. However, Safari handles sheets quite well. They slide down from below the title and don't preclude window dragging. Aesthetically, even Safari sheets need work though.

[a holck]

I have done a real brushed interface fix for iPhoto2. get it here:

http://homepage.mac.com/a_holck/ArchiveDocument.nib.sit

Copy the file into your english.iproj folder in the iphoto2 bundle

[BuonRotto]

This isn't a discussion of interfaces as much as appearances, one aspect of the interface. What do you think of the iMovie's "liquid timeline?" I like it a lot personally, figured it out very quickly.

I general, the liberal use of slides in both iMovie and iPhoto is nice, especially in iMovie where it has a text input field for more precise control. I find it a little odd that the brightness and contrast adjustments in iPhoto don't actually save to the image until you leave thatr image's editing view, so it can delay the next slide or switching to another mode. I do like that they moved the "Share" pane stuff under the organize view, even if it is a little less "clean" in terms of segregating items. The Keyword inspector could be improved in that you should be able to rename keywords in place (the color panel has this problem too, it might be an old practice from OpenStep). The context menus in iPhoto are very nice now, I wish iMovie had more thorough menus like this too.

In iMovie, I think the user should be able to drag an effect, transition or photo into the clips pane or timeline from its preview, not just its list item or by hitting an "apply" or "update" button. This might require a key-combo, but I think it wold make it a little more flexible for users. It would be nice if making still images from iPhoto worked a lttle easier, instead of having to work through the Ken Burns effect. The zoom and positioning options in the effect are a lot better than simply importing, but it would be nice to simply not animate it instead of setting the start and finish animations to be the same thing.

[DavidHossack]

quote

Originally posted by DavidHossack:
The only full real brushed metal apps are iTunes (carbon) and iCal (cocoa). Look at the hilights, recesses aand other stuff. They look the same. Unlike Safari, Address Book, iPhoto, iMovie, and I assume iDVD. It can't be difficult to use the UI coding in iCal on iPhoto and iMovie and Address Book etc. It has been done in Cocoa and iTunes could be recreated easily in IB with the correct Libraries. (iCal cannot be opened in IB without the WR (White Rabbit) palette.

The only thing missing in Cocoa is the small recessed window widgets-There are none available. Try making a Textured Utility window in IB.

iTunes is not a real brushed metal app.

Address Book, Backup, iCal, iChat, iSync, Safari, Calculator are.

This is not what I meant. It is the look of the apps that I mean not the actual technology. The system brushed metal is not actually quite true iApp brushed metal.

iCal cannot be altered since it uses different resources that are not stsndard in IB.

iPhoto 2 uses old style buttons.

The silver buttons are new style. The screenshots including those on the apple site. that I have seen have a duff info button which is different from the rest.

I am very picky with my interfaces. You should see my computer. I have flattened iTunes widgets etc!

[Saltire]

Originally posted by DavidHossack:
The silver buttons are new style. The screenshots including those on the apple site. that I have seen have a duff info button which is different from the rest.

Yep, this really is bad. Look at the difference between the Info button and the others:

[DavidHossack]

I can't believe that nobody noticed this before. The info button is from the old iPhoto while the rest of the buttons are the newer style. (how is the highlight?)

Is it only Scottish people who noticed this?




If I was Steve now I would be heading to the iPhoto development teams office with a P45 (or whatever it is called in the USA) for the offending person. I will have to fix this. Not a problem as such but a pain.

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by DavidHossack:
If I was Steve now I would be heading to the iPhoto development teams office with a P45 (or whatever it is called in the USA) for the offending person. I will have to fix this. Not a problem as such but a pain.

If everyone was Steve, he would not have enough time to go to every departments and tell them what to fix

If I said "If I was Steve, I would support theme..."

Someone else would say "If I was Steve, I would block theme..."

Steve will be like "Being John Malkovich"

[BuonRotto]

Am I thick? You want to 'off' some programmers because a button looks very slightly different than others? Ok, it's not perfect. Calm down. Maybe I'm just missing something.

You should see the iPhoto package contents. They have a bunch of icons from the old version in there, plus a few that aren't even used (yet). The Swiss will be motified!

[Adam Betts]

Originally posted by BuonRotto:
Am I thick? You want to 'off' some programmers because a button looks very slightly different than others? Ok, it's not perfect. Calm down. Maybe I'm just missing something.

I don't think you are getting us right. Not only iMovie and iPhoto are using slightly different looks but they are using different engine. I guess they want to make both software compatible with both 10.1 and 10.2.

If any of the iApps is designed for 10.2 only, they would be faster. iPhoto and iMovie 3 proved this

[DavidHossack]

I am not getting het up about this mistake. It is a basic error that should take a few seconds to fix. (The artwork will be done and just not popped in the package) It shows a lack of care that is all.

(The button has not been cahnged since iPhoto 1.)

I just wish it had been fixed quickly before release. Surely some of the beta testers noticed!

The beauty of the apple software is in the details and here shows the most major lapse of this detailing and cosistency.

I will fix mine and I will be happy.

[Developer]

Originally posted by ZackS:
Mac users are WAY too easily pissed off By trivial UI inconstancies.

Yes, these are trivial UI inconsistencies. And things like iPhoto not remembering the scroll position of the library when you reopen it, is only a minor annoyance.
And it's the hundreds of minor annoyances that make a Windows experience.

[Krypton]

Fixed Info Button

I had a go at fixing the info button, and I think it looks much better (i.e it matches the other buttons now):


iPhoto raised

iPhoto rcessed

Edit for Chimera users

[DavidHossack]

thanks. Saves me doing it.

[sambeau]

I much prefer the look of iTunes and Quicktime to the new iMovie. I think the buttons look unfinished. And I also thought the play button was very bad.

Why keep messing with them?

I think iMovie 3 looks more "Luna" than "Aqua" i prefer the 3Dness of old aqua.

I much prefer the gumdrop buttons to the inset traffic lights too..

I think that the chrome apps *should* look 3D - once you take that away they just look flat and Gray.