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webb3201 · Feb 19, 2003, 07:31 PM

Sorry for posting this in two forums but it fits better here.

My subject is a bit tongue in cheek. I set my dad up with a new iBook and everything has been going smoothly for the past three weeks. I had received none of the normal calls about the "computer is broken", or I cannot print that mom and dad normally pepper me with.

He uses 2k at the office, but has no concept of the underlying reasons for anything. he clicks the icon and works. You know the type. I set all of his favorite applications in the tool bar with his home and document folders and explained how they work.

the ibook was great until tonight when he accidentally turned off the box. when the machine came up, he was confronted (for the first time) with the log in screen. he called and I gave him his password (again). he tried without success numerous times. I asked him if the caps lock or number locks were on. he assured me they were not. i then began to think that I had simply forgotten the password.

I asked him to log out and use my login (which I am 100% sure is correct). He tried and nothing. I asked again if the number or caps locks were on. He then said the light between the F5 was on. I said turn that off and things should work.

My mistake at this point was to ask him to back up and log in under his login (had to be the num lock). Nope. we then logged in under my account and I somehow managed to get him through the accounts section to change his password.

We then logged out and to no one's suprise, he could not use his newly assigned (by him) password. i asked for him to check the num lock and it was somehow on again.

After we worked through the whole process (only about 20 minutes on the phone), he said "This was tough, why don't you get me another Apple computer. They were always easier!"

This is from a PhD level financier with multiple degrees.

OwlBoy · Feb 19, 2003, 07:35 PM

Hmm, I coulda swore the loginscreen don't "see" the caps lock key...

-Owl

midwinter · Feb 19, 2003, 07:41 PM

You know, this proves little other than that it is difficult to provide tech support over the phone.

Cheers
Scott

Landos Mustache · Feb 19, 2003, 07:43 PM

Is anything easy for a 63 year old?

Plus, you can teach an old dog new tricks.

Drizzt · Feb 19, 2003, 07:48 PM

a PhD in something not related to computers doesn't mean he's good with them.

I mean.. I work daily with engeneers, teachers, high placed people.. and they often loose their password.

Saying : "My Dad had 1 difficulty with MacOS X, thus it's hard to use" is making a rule with one exemple. Believe me, I made one of my mom's friends buy a 15" LCD iMac, and it took her 5 months to get up with my mom on functionnality. She almost never used a computer before!

CharlesS · Feb 19, 2003, 08:21 PM

Why did you turn off auto-login on his machine?

Cipher13 · Feb 19, 2003, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by midwinter:
You know, this proves little other than that it is difficult to provide tech support over the phone.

Cheers
Scott

Agreed.

ebolla · Feb 19, 2003, 08:31 PM

why dont you just turn on auto-login in system preferences?

willed · Feb 19, 2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by ebolla:
why dont you just turn on auto-login in system preferences?

The man speaks wisely.

Toyin · Feb 19, 2003, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by ebolla:
why dont you just turn on auto-login in system preferences?

I'm often in a similar situations with my father (though it's usually printing related issues), but it is essential that the main user know their password. You need it pretty often if you plan on installing anything of any significance.

Another option (not very secure and not recommended with any always on internet connection) is to set up a user with no password.

I agree that this does not make OSX a difficult OS to use.

::maroma:: · Feb 19, 2003, 09:13 PM

Just think, if it wasn't Mac OS X, you would've had to talk your Dad through reinstalling Windows.

schk · Feb 19, 2003, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by webb3201:
This is from a PhD level financier with multiple degrees.

I couldn't agree more with the person who said degrees mean nothing when working with computers. Both my mom and dad have PhD's and they are completely clueless with computers. The level of someone's expertise in a certain field has no bearing weather or not they can use a computer well.

If I didn't constantly scold my dad, he'd still insist on loading up AOL every time he wanted to view a website despite the fact we have broadband and I specifically told him we no longer need to dial into AOL or use it at all.

webb3201 · Feb 19, 2003, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by ebolla:
why dont you just turn on auto-login in system preferences?

I really had not thought much about it as I had planned for him to sleep the computer and had written his password on his desk.

I turned it on tonight ( I think )

sushiism · Feb 19, 2003, 10:31 PM

not really osx's fault could have happened on any os really, just the stupidity of the user for not reading the manual and finding out what lights mean

Coxy · Feb 19, 2003, 10:34 PM

PEBCAK.
You may as well write about how the keyboard is a difficult method of data entry for those used to pen and paper.

poocat · Feb 19, 2003, 11:06 PM

wow guys.

humor wooshes right over the heads of far too many people here.

thanks for the story.

pc.

CharlesS · Feb 19, 2003, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by willed:
The man speaks wisely.

But the man did not speak it first. Hrmf.

mitchell_pgh · Feb 20, 2003, 06:05 AM

by default, the mac IS easy, but as advanced users, we make them harder in order to preform more diverse tasks.

With auto login on, you have got to be kidding me... You log in and you see a bunch of icons... Bingo, email, web, music, photos...

People just aren't realistic anymore

ryju · Feb 20, 2003, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by ebolla:
why dont you just turn on auto-login in system preferences?

now that's the first sensible thing i've heard in awhile.

Pepi Picklefoot · Feb 20, 2003, 08:00 AM

Yeah...blaming Mac as difficult to use because of a security feature rather than blaming the keyboard input is a tad harsh.

Like many have said before, just turn on auto-login. If the security feature 'login' screen were more flexible on this type of stuff, people would easily hack themselves onto your computer.

If your father (like my mother) really can't figure out if numlock or capslock is on then we've got a little problem on our hands.

Sure the keyboard could be a little easier to use...it is kinda cryptic looking for people that don't use computers regularly...but if you don't know about the capslock and the numlock, you might as well not touch a computer at all or at least learn the basics.

No computers are magically easy to use. Like *everything else*, you have to understand the basics.

chris v · Feb 20, 2003, 08:12 AM

Windows passwords are case-sensitive, too. This is a conceptual short-coming that has little to do with the OS itself. If you don't have the basics of the input device, you will get unanticipated input.

Think.

CV

iRebound · Feb 20, 2003, 09:27 AM

you said everything went well for the past three weeks except the login problem... it could've happened in windows too. that didn't prove os x is difficult for your pops at all. i also agree about the PhD thing, that don't mean he's good with puters.

Millennium · Feb 20, 2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by chris v:
Windows passwords are case-sensitive, too. This is a conceptual short-coming that has little to do with the OS itself.

I would disagree with it being a shortcoming. It's a security issue, because it gives an attacker many more passwords to wade through.

What they need to do is have icons on the login screen which warn the user when caps lock, num lock, and so forth are on. The little lights don't do much good to someone who isn't looking at that area of the keyboard, but everyone looks at the screen.

Drizzt · Feb 20, 2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
I would disagree with it being a shortcoming. It's a security issue, because it gives an attacker many more passwords to wade through.

What they need to do is have icons on the login screen which warn the user when caps lock, num lock, and so forth are on. The little lights don't do much good to someone who isn't looking at that area of the keyboard, but everyone looks at the screen.

WinXP has it for caps lock..

AJ · Feb 20, 2003, 11:06 AM

I personally don't understand the "long" nature of this post

AJ

Hi I'm Ben · Feb 20, 2003, 11:27 AM

I'm not sure... this post was supposed to be how a mac is hard to use.. sounds more like the mac was real easy to use until you guys forgot the password, just like what would happen on a PC... it's NOT GOING TO LET YOU IN.

Isn't that, if it were used in the right situation, a good thing?

Personally i find mac harder to use then PC, but for different reasons. Mainly because the only unis command i know is ls and cd...

i was raised to know dos, and when my mac starts screwing up on me because i have to keep screwing with it i have no idea how to fix it and it takes me 40x longer to fix then it does my pc. I'm talking about OS X for all of you that care, OS 9 is just as confusing though.

Nebrie · Feb 20, 2003, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Hi I'm Ben:
I'm not sure... this post was supposed to be how a mac is hard to use.. sounds more like the mac was real easy to use until you guys forgot the password, just like what would happen on a PC... it's NOT GOING TO LET YOU IN.

Isn't that, if it were used in the right situation, a good thing?

Personally i find mac harder to use then PC, but for different reasons. Mainly because the only unis command i know is ls and cd...

i was raised to know dos, and when my mac starts screwing up on me because i have to keep screwing with it i have no idea how to fix it and it takes me 40x longer to fix then it does my pc. I'm talking about OS X for all of you that care, OS 9 is just as confusing though.

Of course it's harder; it's like living in North Dakota all your life then moving to Miami or somewhere and expecting to fit right in.

Don Pickett · Feb 20, 2003, 12:51 PM

Another data point: my brother just swithced from a Gateway laptop to a 12 inch Powerbook. He came over so I could show him around OS X, but he had figured almost everything out on his own. The things he didn't know were because of gaps in his technical knowledge - he didn't understand the difference between having an email account through an ISP and having a Hotmail account.

I think this is more proof that some people are good with computer and some aren't. You could sit my mom down in front of any computer, from a Mac to a Wintel machine to HAL 9000, and she would still be scared to push a button.

macmike42 · Feb 20, 2003, 01:12 PM

Hmm. Just did a fresh install of 10.2.4 on an iMac, and auto-login was on. No need to type the password to do anything but modify system directories and UNIX things. Why did you turn auto-login off again?

As for the point about the user having to remember his/her password, I disagree with that. I'm a security-concious paranoid sysadmin type. However, I think there should be an option for having no password at all for the total novice. This option should change the admin password dialog put up by security server to be hideously ugly and disturbing, with a message in throbbing red letters to the effect of "DO YOU TRUST THE SOURCE OF THIS PROGRAM IMPLICITLY? I AM ABOUT TO GIVE THIS PROGRAM THE ABILITY TO COMPLETELY DESTROY YOUR COMPUTER! THINK BEFORE YOU CLICK OK!!!"

Of course this idea would break any UNIX-style authentication, but it could be a requirement that if you need to do anything that requires sudo, you need to have a password, or perhaps Apple could do something even more clever.

AJ · Feb 20, 2003, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by macmike42:
Hmm. Just did a fresh install of 10.2.4 on an iMac, and auto-login was on. No need to type the password to do anything but modify system directories and UNIX things. Why did you turn auto-login off again?

As for the point about the user having to remember his/her password, I disagree with that. I'm a security-concious paranoid sysadmin type. However, I think there should be an option for having no password at all for the total novice. This option should change the admin password dialog put up by security server to be hideously ugly and disturbing, with a message in throbbing red letters to the effect of "DO YOU TRUST THE SOURCE OF THIS PROGRAM IMPLICITLY? I AM ABOUT TO GIVE THIS PROGRAM THE ABILITY TO COMPLETELY DESTROY YOUR COMPUTER! THINK BEFORE YOU CLICK OK!!!"

Of course this idea would break any UNIX-style authentication, but it could be a requirement that if you need to do anything that requires sudo, you need to have a password, or perhaps Apple could do something even more clever.

Uh, there is the option not to have to type a password...just don't put one in when you create the account. Try it: creat an account without one. 10.2 will pop up a message, and just 'ignore' it.

Easy. Problem solved.

AJ

Toyin · Feb 20, 2003, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by macmike42:
Hmm. Just did a fresh install of 10.2.4 on an iMac, and auto-login was on. No need to type the password to do anything but modify system directories and UNIX things. Why did you turn auto-login off again?

As for the point about the user having to remember his/her password, I disagree with that. I'm a security-concious paranoid sysadmin type. However, I think there should be an option for having no password at all for the total novice. This option should change the admin password dialog put up by security server to be hideously ugly and disturbing, with a message in throbbing red letters to the effect of "DO YOU TRUST THE SOURCE OF THIS PROGRAM IMPLICITLY? I AM ABOUT TO GIVE THIS PROGRAM THE ABILITY TO COMPLETELY DESTROY YOUR COMPUTER! THINK BEFORE YOU CLICK OK!!!"

Of course this idea would break any UNIX-style authentication, but it could be a requirement that if you need to do anything that requires sudo, you need to have a password, or perhaps Apple could do something even more clever.

Um..uh..well this doesn't exist so it is important that you remember your password.

Toyin · Feb 20, 2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by Toyin:
I'm often in a similar situations with my father (though it's usually printing related issues), but it is essential that the main user know their password. You need it pretty often if you plan on installing anything of any significance.

Another option (not very secure and not recommended with any always on internet connection) is to set up a user with no password.

I agree that this does not make OSX a difficult OS to use.

Originally posted by AJ:
Uh, there is the option not to have to type a password...just don't put one in when you create the account. Try it: creat an account without one. 10.2 will pop up a message, and just 'ignore' it.

Easy. Problem solved.

AJ

Do people actually read previous posts before posting?

webb3201 · Feb 20, 2003, 03:07 PM

Hello all, I just came back to check this post and had a bit of a chuckle. This was not meant to be a indictment of any OS, simply a vent of my frustrating experience troubleshooting over the phone.

macmike42 · Feb 20, 2003, 04:59 PM

I don't have the time to install a fresh copy of OS X (or a Mac that isn't in use), but what happens if you don't enter a password and then try to do something that would bring up an "enter administrator password" dialog?

Drizzt · Feb 20, 2003, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by macmike42:
I don't have the time to install a fresh copy of OS X (or a Mac that isn't in use), but what happens if you don't enter a password and then try to do something that would bring up an "enter administrator password" dialog?

Just put absolutely nothing in the field, and press OK

Big Mac · Feb 20, 2003, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Hi I'm Ben:
I'm not sure... this post was supposed to be how a mac is hard to use.. sounds more like the mac was real easy to use until you guys forgot the password, just like what would happen on a PC... it's NOT GOING TO LET YOU IN.

Isn't that, if it were used in the right situation, a good thing?

Personally i find mac harder to use then PC, but for different reasons. Mainly because the only unis command i know is ls and cd...

i was raised to know dos, and when my mac starts screwing up on me because i have to keep screwing with it i have no idea how to fix it and it takes me 40x longer to fix then it does my pc. I'm talking about OS X for all of you that care, OS 9 is just as confusing though.

Speaking as a non-Unix-geek, I don't know how easy the process is, but Unix does provide alias functionality that lets you map commands to user defined aliases. You can add an alias to invoke ls when you give a dir command, for example. I'm sure most all Unix books have coverage on it.

Avon · Feb 20, 2003, 08:17 PM

double post

Avon · Feb 20, 2003, 08:19 PM

My dad is 67. I upgraded his 6100 with os 9 to a BW G3 with OS X.

Wow, its so much easier for him to use.
I am a firm beliver in the dock!

As far as passwords are concerned, I make him use a password that is all numbers so there is less of a chance of him fouling things up.

Oh, and I had to get him the apple keyboard with white keys and black letters because he complaind of poor letter visiblity...

nickm · Feb 20, 2003, 09:03 PM

I upgraded my grandmother from OS 9 to 10.2. It was a pretty smooth upgrade. I think the machine is a lot more reliable now, particularly for printing. The Dock is a godsend for her too; her frequent apps are never covered up by anything else, which is great.

Her two complaints? Mail doesn't print page numbers (she prints all her email) and there is not way to easily stop printing when she prints by accident. Valid complaints, I think.

swiz · Feb 20, 2003, 10:59 PM

My grandfather is the treasurer for his local Bonsai club, my grand mother is in charge of creating their bi-monthly newsletters. He is 74, she is 68, they both love OSX and needed minimal introduction. And it is their first computer since around 1984 when my grandad gave me his original Apple II.

TheTraveller · Feb 20, 2003, 11:25 PM

humor wooshes right over the heads of far too many people here.

Or maybe it wasn't really funny? Or maybe people are a little...ahh...tense about this because in a few, usually obscure, ways - OS X is more difficult to use than OS 9, but nobody wants to admit it?

FWIW, my dad is 60 and he gets on great with OS X. Mostly he loves the stability.

CharlesS · Feb 20, 2003, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by TheTraveller:
Or maybe it wasn't really funny? Or maybe people are a little...ahh...tense about this because in a few, usually obscure, ways - OS X is more difficult to use than OS 9, but nobody wants to admit it?

FWIW, my dad is 60 and he gets on great with OS X. Mostly he loves the stability.

If you turned on Multiple Users in OS 9, and set a password, the 63 year old dad would have had the same problem with it.

Actually, he would have had it sooner, because he would have had to reboot sooner.

tooki · Feb 21, 2003, 02:13 AM

My solution to the telephone tech support thing (for helping out my mom): Timbuktu.

With it, I can see my mom's screen, and not only explain what's going on, but teach her how to fix it. (Or if it's something obscure, I can just do it myself. But with most things, I try to teach her how to do it.) It works surprisingly well despite the fact that my mom's on a 33.6k modem, 4700 miles away.

Something to consider.

tooki

mikerally · Feb 21, 2003, 02:51 AM

This is all very interesting but none of you have mentioned this:

Once I was prompted for my password when running an installer PKG, I just happened to be using another program in which you sometimes leave the Caps Lock key on (Adobe After Effects), and right under the password field written in bold with a little vertical arrow to it's left was "CAPS LOCK ON".

Mac OS X actually notifies you in the dialog box if you leave the Caps Lock key on.

Pierre B. · Feb 21, 2003, 03:27 AM

Originally posted by schk:
Both my mom and dad have PhD's and they are completely clueless with computers. The level of someone's expertise in a certain field has no bearing weather or not they can use a computer well.

I will give you a more extreme example. I know a professor in pure mathematics, 65 years old, well established in the scientific community. But he is unable to turn off a macintosh!

michaelb · Feb 21, 2003, 05:15 AM

Is it a Cube?!

Apple actually, seriously, had to publish a tech note on turning on the Cube because of its conducer power switch.

Kind of reminds me of something Douglas Adams wrote: Wonko the Sane knew the human race had run its course when he saw a set of directions for using a toothpick.

chris v · Feb 21, 2003, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by Millennium:
I would disagree with it being a shortcoming. It's a security issue, because it gives an attacker many more passwords to wade through.

What they need to do is have icons on the login screen which warn the user when caps lock, num lock, and so forth are on. The little lights don't do much good to someone who isn't looking at that area of the keyboard, but everyone looks at the screen.

I meant a conceptual shortcoming on the part of the user, not the OS. Case-sensitive passwords should not be too hard of a concept for a college graduate to grasp, and its certainly not going to get better for them with Windows, where you have the add'l concept of holding down the shift key to get lower-case when caps-lock is on. That would create an additional concept barrier for the keyboard-challenged.

CV

Nebagakid · Feb 21, 2003, 08:02 AM

Majority of Computer mistakes are made by the user, and not because the OS makes it so there will be mistakes. People spell things wrong, or delete something by accident. It is what happens! Even power users like us here make mistakes (I get problems all the time because I can't spell)... To blame the OS is not the way,

The user just needs to know basic concepts of Mac OS X (Passowords, the Dock, the Finder). Otherwise, they will just be plain lost

simifilm · Feb 21, 2003, 04:16 PM

As other people have already said this story proves nothing. I consider both of my parents highly intelligent but when it comes to computers they tend to act like complete idiots (not depending on the OS). Whenever one of them calls me to explain a computer issue on the phone my adrenaline level peaks. It always ends with me yelling into the phone...