[calimehtar]

Just want to vent. Sorry if you've heard it before.

1. application packages give you the false security that you can move apps anywhere you want without side-effects. I put my apps in sub-directories underneath Applications. All apps that are bundled now re-install themselves into the Applications root directory when there's an update and I have to move them to their proper locations manually. As if this weren't enough, the most recent update appears to have attempted to apply a _patch_ to a non-existant Address Book application resulting in two apps that don't work where before I had one that did! Grrr!

2. the first time you hit up arrow in an Icons finder view takes you to the first item in the list. up arrow in the List view takes you to the _last_ item in the list.

3. File dialogues are disasterous. Half the time keyboard shortcuts don't work at all. Command-D works. Command-shift-H kinda works but the view doesn't scroll to the right spot so you're likely to see an empty window instead of your home folder. The create a new folder dialogue won't accept keyboard shortcuts at all, even Return!

4. Command-A, one of my favourite keyboard shortcuts _doesn't_ automatically work in all text boxes the way it did in OS 9.

Really this are just details, but very important details to me since they are muscle-memory and were a few of the countless things that allowed me to be more productive on the Mac back when they worked. How hard can it be to fix this stuff?

[calimehtar]

oh, I forgot, I've got one more.

In the finder in list view command-N makes a new folder and immediately selects the folder rather than the folder name. Conversely, creating a new folder in icon view immediately selects the folder's name so that you can start editing it. The behaviour in icon view is correct -- who wants a folder called "untitled 1". But why the inconsistency?

[Gene Jockey]

I'll agree with the way SW Update does updates. I hate having a broken Mail.app patch thing hanging around after an update. I heard SWU was supposed to have gotten smarter recently, and would find apps if they were in sub-folders, but after 10.2.5, same broken Address Book and Mail app icons. Let's get with it, Apple!

--J

[calimehtar]

Gene J, what did you do to fix the broken app? I'm living without Address Book right now, and thinking about re-installing my system completely to fix it. AFAIK there is nowhere a person can go to download a complete, functional address book package.

[cpac]

(1) - that's just part of getting used to working in OS X - it's not 9. Things *need* to be in certain locations for things to work. If you really want to sub-folderize your applications, do what I did and make a bunch of aliases - this even solves having to drill down into some apps which have their own folders (Photoshop, MS Office) and makes using pop-up folders from the dock a bit cleaner. (I'll concede that System Updates should warn you if they don't find what they're looking for where they expect to find it).

(2) - When in icon view, there is no "list." Hitting the up arrow simply takes you to the highest icon in the window, furthest left if there's more than one. Seems pretty intuitive to me. So does having the up arrow start at the bottom of the list - that's how lists have worked as long as I (or my finger muscles) can remember. If anything, I tend to type a few letters of a file name to jump to it in either list, column, or icon view.

(3) - What do you mean half the time the keyboard shortcuts don't work at all? Every single last on in the "Go" menu worked for me in save dialogues - even command-shift-i for pulling up the iDisk.

Which column appears tends to be function of which columns were visible before you hit the shortcut. (i.e. going from Desktop to home shows the contents of home in the furthest left column in two-column view, but going from computer to home shows home itself in the left-hand column). It's consistent at least.

Finally, what keyboard shortcuts do you want in the "New Folder" dialog? You're just typing the name of the new folder - presumably you've already navigated to where you want the folder to be created. The return key worked just find to confirm this dialog for me....


(4) - I have yet to find a place where command-A doesn't highlight all the text. Can you provide an example?

[stew]

What's really bothering me:
No undo in Cocoa text fields! Spell checking is nice, but undo is essential, especially with the trackpad close to my thumbs. It happens from time to time that I accidently select whole paragraphs while typing in the browser window and overwrite them with the next keystroke.

[cpac]

Originally posted by calimehtar:
oh, I forgot, I've got one more.

In the finder in list view command-N makes a new folder and immediately selects the folder rather than the folder name. Conversely, creating a new folder in icon view immediately selects the folder's name so that you can start editing it. The behaviour in icon view is correct -- who wants a folder called "untitled 1". But why the inconsistency?

Command-N *never* creates a new folder - it makes a new finder window.

Command-shift-N creates a new folder.

I'll concede the behavior is inconsistent between list and the other views, but how hard is it to hit return? Yes this is something Apple should fix, but come now, they had 20 years to get everything right in OS < X

[cpac]

Originally posted by stew:
What's really bothering me:
No undo in Cocoa text fields! Spell checking is nice, but undo is essential, especially with the trackpad close to my thumbs. It happens from time to time that I accidently select whole paragraphs while typing in the browser window and overwrite them with the next keystroke.

I think it's the browser you're using.

Undo works fine in TextEdit, and in OmniWeb text fields so I don't think it's a cocoa issue...

Also, try using the preference for "ignore trackpad while typing" - it'll save you a bunch of headaches.

[Blanchard]

I myself hate being asked if I REALLY wan to turn off my computer (I've just hit "SHUT DOWN", geez) or if I REALLY want to change preferences of my starting disk (I've just changed them, didn't I?). There are a few others...

I went back to OS 9 because my computer is just not fast enough for productive apps in OS X- I have a very old Yikes 400 (2 years old! An antique!). I know OS X has a lot of geeky things under the hood. But I feel a lot less dumber in OS 9. I know my computer better. It doesn't hide thousands of files from my nose. It doesn't bounce icons in exchange of my ignorance. And it doesn't have the strange non-intuitive behaviors described in this post.

Just admitting that much doesn't make you a loser. The loser is the one who shuts his critical spirit and heads for a clash. Apple seems to be constructive enough to listen to critics. But try to make your critics heard...

All this being said, some mac users I know who never use shortcuts and mostly surf on web, etc., said they found OS X easy to learn. That I think was the main target of Apple. And they gave the geek guys what they wanted.

[cpac]

the biggest problem seems to be long time mac users expecting OS X *to be* OS 9. It's not. It's new and different, and for a while it will feel weird, but like anything you'll get used to it, and eventually you'll find many things that make it better.

For example, rather than getting annoyed about confirming a shutdown, why not just *stop* shutting down. OS X can run for months without being shut down at all (and in fact, some important clean-up things happen only if the computer is *on* at 3am or something).

Aside from Software Update not being smarter about updating applications, and from the minor inconsistency between new folder creation in list vs. icon & column view, I have yet to see an explanation of something that's so horribly wrong...

[Blanchard]

Originally posted by cpac:


For example, rather than getting annoyed about confirming a shutdown, why not just *stop* shutting down. OS X can run for months without being shut down at all (and in fact, some important clean-up things happen only if the computer is *on* at 3am or something).
[/B]

I wouldn't let my Mac run for months because 1) I have a pretty noisy mac, and because 2) I care about frivolous things like environment and I think it's not worth it to let my fan turn and spoil energy, just so I don't get annoyed by a weird dialogue box. And some apps let me clean-up things when I want it, I can even show off my geekie nerdiness and do a command line clean-up schedule and run the thing, say at noon.

THERE ARE some annoying things in OS X. Admitting it won't hurt.

Some apps install themselves in the Applications folder and it is not necessary for them to be there. This is a bad habit that Apple has instilled in developers.

Etc.

[Developer]

Originally posted by cpac:
(1) - that's just part of getting used to working in OS X - it's not 9. Things *need* to be in certain locations.

Wrong. That's just dumb.
Apparently the installer can find moved applications, but Apple doesn't make use of that feature in its software updates.

[stew]

Originally posted by cpac:
I think it's the browser you're using.

Undo works fine in TextEdit, and in OmniWeb text fields so I don't think it's a cocoa issue...

It is a Cocoa issue, the apps you mention just add it. The vanilla Cocoa text field does not have undo, you can try for yourself by building a simple app with just a window and a Cocoa text fie.d

Also, try using the preference for "ignore trackpad while typing" - it'll save you a bunch of headaches.

I just noticed that it's not that I am touching the trackpad but happen to hit the shift and cursor up key instead of just the shift key.

[clarkgoble]

It might not be horribly wrong, but there is plenty in the Finder to complain about. Not typically what OS9 users complain about. Rather remnants of an OS9 way of doing things. (i.e. poor multithreading)

But I agree, a lot of complaints are kind of rubbish. I can sort of see the label issue, as many people do use it. But it is available as a 3rd party add in by several vendors. So what's the big deal?

The bigger deal is that I think the UI for column view in the Finder browser is highly flawed. But not enought that I'd say it is horrible. It sure isn't elegant though. But I don't think that the OS9 Finder approach was much better.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Developer:
Wrong. That's just dumb.
Apparently the installer can find moved applications, but Apple doesn't make use of that feature in its software updates.

As I said multiple times, I'll concede the installer not being smarter is dumb.

My point was more that on a Unix system, certain files need to be left in certain places for them to work properly. If you put an application that offers services, e.g. on your Desktop, the services will not be available...

Apple might well be able to make things back to how they were with OS 9 (when you could pretty much put anything anywhere) but understandably this may take a while, and is somewhat inappropriate given a multi-user OS.

Originally posted by stew:
It is a Cocoa issue, the apps you mention just add it. The vanilla Cocoa text field does not have undo, you can try for yourself by building a simple app with just a window and a Cocoa text fie.d

So - the problem is just that your browser hasn't implemented it? Any application I use seems to have some version of it implemented, perhaps tweaked in behavior based on the needs of that particular application, so why should Apple bother? (for such a small improvement)

I just noticed that it's not that I am touching the trackpad but happen to hit the shift and cursor up key instead of just the shift key.

That's a good reason to get just a little more accurate with your typing...

[macmike42]

A) There is most certainly undo in Cocoa text fields. It works 100% of the time in every Cocoa app I use and have written. It IS possible to override or disable to UndoManager for an NSTextField, but you must subclass to do it (a lot of work, and totally stupid idea)

B) File dialogs, AFACT, have been fixed since 10.2.3. As of Jaguar, Cocoa file dialogs work perfectly in terms of navigations, but Carbon file dialogs were horribly broken. The one irritation I still find is that sometime hitting Enter does not trigger the "Save" button depending on what control in the dialog has focus.

C) Please name a place where command-A doesn't work the way you expect it to. X11? Try control-A.

D) Yeah, Apple should bundle identifier technology. I mean, they implemented it, right? Why not just use the bundle identifier to locate the application bundle to update? It takes two lines of code to find the bundle path given the identifier, and the API is very easy to use. That really does piss me off. For now, I have /Applications and ~/Applications. The former is Apple's responsibility, the latter is mine. They are NOT allowed to inter-mingle.

E) What about window resizing? I f*cking hate it!!!

[cpac]

Originally posted by clarkgoble:
Ithere is plenty in the Finder to complain about. Not typically what OS9 users complain about. Rather remnants of an OS9 way of doing things. (i.e. poor multithreading)

Entirely agreed!

[Brass]

Originally posted by stew:
It is a Cocoa issue, the apps you mention just add it. The vanilla Cocoa text field does not have undo, you can try for yourself by building a simple app with just a window and a Cocoa text fie.d

Just to clarify... Undo DOES work by default in Cocoa text VIEWS (multiple lines), but does NOT work 100% reliably in Cocoa text FIELDS (single lines), but this appears to be due to a Cocoa bug. At least that's how it appears in the apps I've written.

undo does sometime work in text fields, but sometimes, it actually causes all the text in another text view to be deleted! This is not a missing feature, but a bug. I sure hope they fix it!

[brink]

Just to add a couple of my own -

When you create a folder in list view, the name gets deselected immediately.

When you type-select an item in list view, the scroll bars go out of sync with the contents of the window.

Active windows get stuck behind inactive windows a lot.

Cocoa applications have a habit of unhiding themselves to get your attention, which is pretty irritating -- I really really don't appreciate having Mail unhide itself and reveal tasteless porn spam in my inbox while someone's looking over my shoulder.

The Open dialogs don't remember your last selection and type selecting is broken.

Drag scrolling works poorly in a lot of applications. You have to diggle the mouse to coax windows into scrolling. (Diggle = drag + jiggle)

You can't trust what the Finder says about your files or the space left on your hard drive. I don't know if it's more irritating or amusing (or just plain sad) to watch the Finder report that you have less space available after emptying the Trash. And don't get me started about having to click on a file to get the Finder to refresh the file's modification date...

[calimehtar]

I actually love OS X and cannot imagine using anything else. Mac OS 9 is too unstable and doesn't have Camino, Fire, Mail, and Address Book -- applications which I've become dependant on. Also I love Unix which is why I'll never switch to Windows no matter how much money MS invests in improving useability.

I should add that the fact that IE Windows won't select all in the browser address bar when you hit ctrl-A is one of my all-time least favourite things about Windows, especially since I try it all the time due to muscle-memory I developed using Macs.

cpac:
I think the Command-A problem I mentioned in Macs is mostly an application specific problem or maybe a Carbon problem. Command-A doesn't work in about a million different places in Photoshop.

And yes, keyboard shortcuts seem to randomly not work in file dialogues. I don't know why. Maybe it's a problem specific to my machine. The same may be true of the problem I experience using command-shift-H.

Try this experiment to be 100% sure: open a file dialogue somewhere other than the home directory and dig very deep -- more than three levels -- then hit command-shift-H. On my computer I reliably get an empty file dialogue.

[cpac]

Originally posted by calimehtar:
Try this experiment to be 100% sure: open a file dialogue somewhere other than the home directory and dig very deep -- more than three levels -- then hit command-shift-H. On my computer I reliably get an empty file dialogue.

I still get the contents of the home folder in the far left column (going another 7 or so levels deep).

Oh well, bottom line? Yes, there are some bugs to be squashed, but are they a reason to "hate" OS X? No.

[AKcrab]

Originally posted by calimehtar:
Gene J, what did you do to fix the broken app? I'm living without Address Book right now, and thinking about re-installing my system completely to fix it. AFAIK there is nowhere a person can go to download a complete, functional address book package.

Won't Pacifist let you grab it from a package?

[Blanchard]

says cpac: "I have yet to see an explanation of something that's so horribly wrong..."

It's something like the old VW versus the new one. In any of its details, you will never understand why some prefer the old one and others the new model. You have to look from afar and understand what kind of world they both convey.

The small annoyances in the Finder and the installer being pointed at are the tip of the iceberg. It's like a way of expressing a deep frustration.

With OS 9, the user had more control and understood more of what was happening than in OS X. The clumsiness of OS 9 is, like the old VW, attractive for some. I even know some guy who never got over OS 8 because of the 3d folders.

OS X is more stable in some way, but in some other ways, it's buggier than OS 9. So let's wait for the grand night, heh?

[Gene Jockey]

Originally posted by calimehtar:
Gene J, what did you do to fix the broken app? I'm living without Address Book right now, and thinking about re-installing my system completely to fix it. AFAIK there is nowhere a person can go to download a complete, functional address book package.

Well, the original apps are in sub-folders, and are fine after the update. I just delete the pseudo-patch detritus Apple's updates leave in /Applications. I guess maybe I'm not benefiting from some updates, but I seem to get by.

I figure some day Apple will implement the ability to update apps that have been moved and I'll just wait to update until then.

In the meantime, I'll just ignore SW Update's pleas to update to iTunes 3.0.1, which I already have.

--Josh

[calimehtar]

AKcrab: Pacifist. thanks, it's a life-saver. or at least a several-hours-of-pointless-downloading-and-updating saver.

You know, somebody should tell Apple that the easy fix is just to post these things to download by ftp. I remember trying vainly to install software updates via 56k modem when some bug would cause the updates to _always_ stall half-way though with no way to resume properly. Thay particular gripe was fixed by upgrading to dsl

[cpac]

Originally posted by Blanchard:
It's something like the old VW versus the new one. In any of its details, you will never understand why some prefer the old one and others the new model.

I can understand liking OS 9 - hell I was pretty good at trouble shooting most anything and now? I know very little in comparison. Such is the price of getting a modern operating system.

But bitching about how things used to be wont ever make things today any better. It's like the old VW - if you are willing to deal with the old car, repair it, etc. then stick with it. If you like System 8 (or 9) stick with it - never upgrade, just keep using what you've got.

But if you want to move forward, or need to move forward, you're best off just embracing the new technology and changing the way you work.

[RooneyX]

I was networking my Tibook with my cousin's Thinkpad so we could play Unreal Tournament. Everytime I tried to log on with Samba I got a kernal panic. My cousin would say 'Look, OSX crashed!'.

I would reply 'Yeah, but look how pretty it is when it crashes!'

[DeathMan]

I've learned to deal with most of these bugs. Its a lot easier to click the OK button after creating a new folder in the Open/Save dialog, than it is to lose a half hour's worth of work in Photoshop, as well as paper or email that was in the middle of being composed, and a flash file that you might not have saved as recently as you would have hoped, all just because Internet Explorer "Unexpectedly" quit.

Anyone who says OSX is slower than OS9 either has some MAD maintenence skills, or doesn't know how to multitask. I've used a 400 Mhz G4. Its not snappy, but it'll get the job(S) done.


I will agree 100% though, that if Apple really wants Aqua to shine, they're going to have to spend a little more time polishing it.

[stew]

Originally posted by Brass:
Just to clarify... Undo DOES work by default in Cocoa text VIEWS (multiple lines), but does NOT work 100% reliably in Cocoa text FIELDS (single lines), but this appears to be due to a Cocoa bug. At least that's how it appears in the apps I've written.!

Where is it then? This very text view I am using right now to enter my reply in Safari does not appear to have Undo (running 10.2.4) - command-Z does nothing and the Edit/Undo menu item is unavailable.
When I build a new app in the dev tools with just a NSTextView in it, it doesn't have Undo either. A right-click offers me spelling, copy/cut/paste and speaking services but no undo.

[bradoesch]

I don't like how my view preferences don't stick and that it won't save passwords for network locations. That's about it.

[cgc]

Something that bugs me is trying to close an inactive window. First click to activate it, then click to close it.

[Chris Grande]

Originally posted by cgc:
Something that bugs me is trying to close an inactive window. First click to activate it, then click to close it.

Just hover over the close widget and click. It should just close the window without pulling it to the front; you can also minimize to the dock the same way.

[symonsl]

Originally posted by brink:
Cocoa applications have a habit of unhiding themselves to get your attention, which is pretty irritating -- I really really don't appreciate having Mail unhide itself and reveal tasteless porn spam in my inbox while someone's looking over my shoulder.

Strange, that has never happened to me.

[Agent69]

Nevermind.

[Agent69]

Blanchard:

Press the Option key when you select shutdown or restart. You should shutdown/restart without being asked to confirm.

[ibobunot]

The things I hate about OS X would be Classic, list view, and icon view.

[beb]

I want list-shaded windows.

And make the mail.app work with Groupwise. Novell's solution is to purchase some Ukranian company's java product.

I also want Apple to update the old QT VR studio as well as make it have a bunch of other useful hypercard-like widgets that can make nifty interactive QT movies.

I also want an iMac with a 970 in it's little white butt.

Piles look kinda neat. I wish I could find my socks that way. Item 094: Blue Sock, Last washed April 7th, Detergent used: Tide, Last modified: Moved to couch...

[11011001]

The following are trivial: In 10.1 the terminal remember your last commands.. or maybe it was 10.0.. what I mean is, that you could open up a terminal, press the up key, and it would get the last command you entered the last time you had a terminal open. They got rid of that.. now, it only remembers for the current terminal, and once it's closed that history is gone...grr.. I can probably set it somewhere.. but still.

Ooo, and sometimes 'cd' stops working, complaining about some variable not being set... grr... have to use 'chdir' instead, but that might be something wrong with things I have done to the .cshrc.

Another, they took away the 'l' command in the terminal.. of course I made a new alias, but still (ls -a).

And finally the worst thing. Aboslutely freaking horrible. You can't run OS X on big partitions.. I have a 220 gig partition and a 8 gig partition on the same drive. I used to be able to run OS X off the 220, but since Jaguar, I have been stuck on the 8 gig. I have no room to breathe.. it's horrible (yesterday I ran out of swap space), I could put the swap on another drive.. but the whole purpose of making that 8 gig partition, was so that I would have an unfragmented speedy place to let my swap live in, instead it is now cluttered with my OS, various applications, hundreds of my documents.. a whole bunch of fink stuff.. and god knows what else.

[barbarian]

That's just part of getting used to working in OS X - it's not 9. Things *need* to be in certain locations for things to work. If you really want to sub-folderize your applications, do what I did and make a bunch of aliases - this even solves having to drill down into some apps which have their own folders (Photoshop, MS Office) and makes using pop-up folders from the dock a bit cleaner. (I'll concede that System Updates should warn you if they don't find what they're looking for where they expect to find it).

This is a cop out. There is no reason apps can't live in a subfolder of Applications other than Apple's inability to make an updater with enough smarts to handle this. I have literally hundreds of apps so subfolders are a must. For every update I drag all the apple apps back to the main Applications folder and after the update put them back where they belong. This is a pain in the butt and I shouldn't have to do it. Also the updater should be smart enough to figure out that the current iMovie is installed even when it has been moved. This is just sloppiness on Apple's part. 3rd party updaters can find the proper app across all your volumes. If VISE can do it apple can. Apple needs to shape up on this.

Anyway this is one of the things I hate about OS X, one of the other things I hate, is the still inconsistant way in which X handles fonts and font smoothing. I hate that carbon/cocoa/java apps all behave differently. I hate that I can't control things systemwide and I hate not being able to choose my own system font/size.

ok end of rant.

[JLL]

Originally posted by bradoesch:
and that it won't save passwords for network locations. That's about it.

What do you mean?

[gralem]

Originally posted by calimehtar:
Just want to vent. Sorry if you've heard it before.

1. application packages give you the false security that you can move apps anywhere you want without side-effects. I put my apps in sub-directories underneath Applications. All apps that are bundled now re-install themselves into the Applications root directory when there's an update and I have to move them to their proper locations manually. As if this weren't enough, the most recent update appears to have attempted to apply a _patch_ to a non-existant Address Book application resulting in two apps that don't work where before I had one that did! Grrr!

Here we go... My first recommendation is great--write your own OS that works the way you want it to. Please understand, I'm not trying to complain--you are. But I'm sick of these "I hate this OS because". Name an OS that does what you describe in #1.

Name a single OS anywhere in the world that if you move the application from where you told the system you installed it, that OS will correctly patch/update/uninstall the application. This cannot happen. When you install the OS, it knows where address book should be. If you want to move it and have the OS update it properly, you must register the new app location with the OS.

Example #1. I install MS Office XP on my Win XP computer. I specifically say I want it to be installed in "C:/Program Files/MSOffice/". Once the install is complete, I simply move the folder to "D:/untitled/" There is no way for the updater to work. A lot of the App will not work as well.

Example #2. I install iCal in my OSX "/Applications/" folder. This will create a receipt in OSX that holds the installation location. I then move iCall.app to "/Users/Shared/Untitled/". Then there is a software update. Since software update reads the Reciept, and I was an idiot and did a half-assed job of moving the App without updating the OS, how do expect the OS to know where I moved the app?

As soon as you find an OS that has a list of installation locations (see /Library/Receipts or WinXP registry or Linux RPM database) *AND* allows you to move applications around anywhere you want--not informing the OS of the new location of the app--and the OS can handle it (or the App updater for that matter), then this is what you should do:

Write apple and recommend that they follow the technology of this new and exciting OS that you've found--ask them to incorporate those features as found in that OS.

I look forward to you home-made OS that does everything just pefectly.

---gralem

[beb]

Originally posted by JLL:
What do you mean?

He means that when you connect to your windows fileservers or webdav locations using the Command K method, that 10.2.5 won't remember the password.

So you have to type it in or hit return to allow even a username (In the absence of a passworded system) everytime you want to connect to a windows fileserver.

The way around it is to write a simple applescript app.

As for webdav, the system doesn't even remember what webserver location (http://www.whateverserver.com) you wanted to connect to so you have to completely rekey that location in each time -and then key in the username and password.

[mrmister]

" Name a single OS anywhere in the world that if you move the application from where you told the system you installed it, that OS will correctly patch/update/uninstall the application."

I recall OS9 working this way.

[Blanchard]

Says gralem:

"Write apple and recommend that they follow the technology of this new and exciting OS that you've found--ask them to incorporate those features as found in that OS. "


This is exactly what goes wrong in discussions. It is an attack ad hominem - instead of working on the problem, you attack the integrity of the one who is speaking.

Your comment about the impossibility for an OS to detect changed locations is interesting, but the complaint is about a complicated OS that users have trouble figuring exactly how does it work sometimes. And I'm talking about experienced users. Trying to show how stupid those persons are underlines a poor comprehension of the complaint.

Peace.

[gralem]

Originally posted by Blanchard:
This is exactly what goes wrong in discussions. It is an attack ad hominem - instead of working on the problem, you attack the integrity of the one who is speaking.

Peace. [/B]

No. I wasn't trying to attack him personally. And I hope you don't think I was implying anyone was stupid with my explanation/examples. I actually think that his other points are entirely correct. It's stupid to have different rules for different views and such (although I personally do not see how those 5 points would keep me from using OSX).

I just think his first point was way off.

And someone said OS9 answers my question. No it does not. OS9 did not register the way I'm talking about--as a modern OS--the location of the applications. So it doesn't fall under the category of an OS that acts like that. The way HFS was used in OS9 and OSX is completely different. OSX inherently does not know what it is not told about files/applications/devices/etc. Please refer to my 2 examples.

So we're all on the same boat? Good.

Peace, also.

Sorry if i came across attacking. Even when I said "write your own OS". I meant that quite honestly--I did not mean to imply something impossible. Lots of people have done it. Just go to www.freeos.com. If it wasn't for people developing their own OS for things the personally feel is the "right way" to have an OS, lots of features would be missing in OSX/XP/Linux.

---gralem

[nforcer]

I can't think of them all at once, so I will post them here as I come across them.

And what I just recently was reminded of was that annoying little dialog that comes up every time you want to change a file extension. I really wish there was a way to get rid of that Windows-like dialog. Yes Finder, I really do want to change that file extension, since Safari thinks .template and .cpp really means .txt

[bewebste]

Originally posted by gralem:
Here we go... My first recommendation is great--write your own OS that works the way you want it to. Please understand, I'm not trying to complain--you are. But I'm sick of these "I hate this OS because". Name an OS that does what you describe in #1.

Mac OS 9. Both Apple's installers and VISE installers had the ability to search for an existing application in order to patch it. I've even run across ones that would ask you which one to patch if it found multiple copies on your system.

Name a single OS anywhere in the world that if you move the application from where you told the system you installed it, that OS will correctly patch/update/uninstall the application. This cannot happen.

Yes, it can, even under OS X. Apple has recently fixed their installer (I believe it was in one of the 10.2.x patches) so that it has the capability of patching or replacing an application by looking it up by the bundle identifier. Note that although it has the capability to do this, this doesn't mean that all install packages automatically do this (yet). For an example of one that does utilize this functionality, if you updated Safari via Software Update, it would look for the existing install of Safari and replace that one instead of just plopping it in /Applications. You will start to see more and more install packages from Apple start to use this functionality in the future.

In both the case of the installer and the services menu, the functionality already exists in the OS to find where applications live, even if they are moved. It maintains a database of the installed applications and uses this for several things, such as deciding what application should be launched when double clicking a file of a certain type in the Finder. The only thing that needs to be done is to have the installer and services hook into this same information that already exists.

[calimehtar]

gralem, I understand what you're saying. However this is a valid complaint simply because applications come so incredibly close to working like stand-alones. It's the software updates and installer that are broken, not the OS.

[bradoesch]

Originally posted by beb:
He means that when you connect to your windows fileservers or webdav locations using the Command K method, that 10.2.5 won't remember the password.

So you have to type it in or hit return to allow even a username (In the absence of a passworded system) everytime you want to connect to a windows fileserver.

The way around it is to write a simple applescript app.

As for webdav, the system doesn't even remember what webserver location (http://www.whateverserver.com) you wanted to connect to so you have to completely rekey that location in each time -and then key in the username and password.

Correct. Although it does remember some of the passwords. I'm not sure if that's nice or just more frustrating!

[brink]

Originally posted by gralem:
Name a single OS anywhere in the world that if you move the application from where you told the system you installed it, that OS will correctly patch/update/uninstall the application. This cannot happen. When you install the OS, it knows where address book should be. If you want to move it and have the OS update it properly, you must register the new app location with the OS.

I don't know of any good reason why Mac OS X can't do this. Every app has a unique bundle id and/or creator code, so launch services can easily locate it even if the user has moved it or renamed it. I believe the Finder automatically collects info about any applications you happen upon as you navigate the file system in addition to collecting info about all the apps in places like /Applications at startup.