[veryniceguy2002]

Well, this is as quoted from Apple Music Store web page:

Getting started
The iTunes Music Store is only available in the U.S. To get running all you need is a Mac with Mac OS X (version 10.2.5 or later recommended), and an Internet connection (DSL, Cable or a LAN-based connection recommended for streaming and downloading music). Just download iTunes 4, click the Music Store icon, and you’ve got the world’s most accessible music store, right on your screen. Feel free to browse for as long as you want. There’s no pressure to buy, no annoying pop-up ads, and no confusion about what’s offered.


Now, why does the world most accessable music store only available to US? yet Apple music service is already heavily promoted in Apple worldwide websites??

[mrmister]

There are a lot of licensing, copyright and governmental issues involved in making a business worldwide, even if it all appears to be virtual. Exepcting a worldwide rollout is just silly--it needs to shake down in the US first while contracts and God-only-knows what else needs doing.

If there's nothing for int'l customers in 6 months, then start complaining.

[Putta]

Originally posted by mrmister:
There are a lot of licensing, copyright and governmental issues involved in making a business worldwide, even if it all appears to be virtual. Exepcting a worldwide rollout is just silly--it needs to shake down in the US first while contracts and God-only-knows what else needs doing.

If there's nothing for int'l customers in 6 months, then start complaining.

Actually I think I will start complaining now. We pay more for our machines than you do and constantly get bad service. Its enough to make someone want to switch.

They have been working at this for 18 months so they could have sorted it out.

I guess the Bush government might have something to do with this new idea of the "worlds best music..." - Only a bloody idiot would write something so contradictory.

[wataru]

Originally posted by Putta:
Actually I think I will start complaining now. We pay more for our machines than you do and constantly get bad service. Its enough to make someone want to switch.

You pay more because of import tariffs. You wait because of international politics and legal issues. Either rewrite the laws for the whole world or calm down.

Apple is an American company. Of course they're going to release things for America first.

[Simon Mundy]

Well I, for one, am quite happy to let the good citizens of the USA beta test this new feature before I commit my credit card to it. Hopefully all will be smooth as silk in 6 months time.

[Fallout]

Originally posted by Simon Mundy:
Well I, for one, am quite happy to let the good citizens of the USA beta test this new feature before I commit my credit card to it. Hopefully all will be smooth as silk in 6 months time.

Agreed...although immediate access would be nice.

[mrmister]

Putta, you're a moron, but feel free to complain to your little heart's content.

[Brass]

Its funny how all the Americans, who don't have to wait, keep saying things like, "Calm down", "Stop complaining", "Stuff you", etc.

"I'm alright, Jack, so bugger the rest of you".

Typical.

[Gul Banana]

Typical, and bloody annoying. This service met all my expectations, and is good enough in every way for me to use it regularly.. except that I'm not allowed to. And they wonder why we're irritated?

[Spheric Harlot]

Just watched the stream.

"This service is US-only right now, because your credit card currently needs a US billing address. But we're working on that."

(Quoth Jobs, or words to that effect.)

-s*

[superblue]

Well let's be constructive and get the petitions down:

http://www.petitiononline.com/AppleInt/petition.html

[Spheric Harlot]

Why petition?

You don't think they're working on it, especially since Jobs said so himself?

Will a petition get this legal stuff sorted out faster?

Or will it just generate a bunch of unnecessary email?

Sorry, but duh.

-s*

[moonmonkey]

Originally posted by wataru:
You pay more because of import tariffs. You wait because of international politics and legal issues. Either rewrite the laws for the whole world or calm down.

Apple is an American company. Of course they're going to release things for America first.

Import Tarrifs?

The computers are not made in the US, they are made Tiawan, China, and possibly Ireland.

Apple charge a fortune for their computers in the UK, because people in the UK on average earn more money.

This is nothing to do with Import Tarrifs.

[moonmonkey]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Just watched the stream.

"This service is US-only right now, because your credit card currently needs a US billing address. But we're working on that."

(Quoth Jobs, or words to that effect.)

-s*

Why would it need a US billing address, I can buy anything I want with my UK or HK credit card.

The issue must be a copyright problem with the music providers.

[moonmonkey]

Originally posted by mrmister:
Putta, you're a moron, but feel free to complain to your little heart's content.

Boycoting the Music service is a bit stupid, but it wont make any difference, because he can't use it anyway.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
Why would it need a US billing address, I can buy anything I want with my UK or HK credit card.

The issue must be a copyright problem with the music providers.

Possible.

He said that the service required a US billing address, and I believe he related that to CC companies. I'm not sure though - it' s in that stream somewhere.

-s*

[Visnaut]

Originally posted by Brass:
Its funny how all the Americans, who don't have to wait, keep saying things like, "Calm down", "Stop complaining", "Stuff you", etc.
[...]
Typical.

How about you hear it from a proud Canadian? CTFD!! What's so hard to understand about legal issues? You can't just throw them out the window, especially if you've got heavy-handed record companies breathing down your neck...

Sure, it sucks that as America's largest trading partner and closest neighbor, that us Canadians don't have access to the iTunes music store. But honestly, Apple knows they're sitting on a goldmine, and they would be more than happy to take your $, ¥, and Euros ASAP.

Man, some ppl need to relax.

(PS. How do I type in a Euro sign into these forums. I tried dragging it in from the character palette, but that yielded a question mark when posted...)

[Stratus Fear]

Originally posted by Brass:
Its funny how all the Americans, who don't have to wait, keep saying things like, "Calm down", "Stop complaining", "Stuff you", etc.

"I'm alright, Jack, so bugger the rest of you".

Typical.

I don't enjoy being generalized as a "typical American" when "you internationals" complain just because we're getting something before you do. I don't particularly like the way Japan gets most video game stuff first, but all the big game developers are Japanese-based, so that's the way it's gonna be, and I don't complain because I'm perfectly content knowing I'll have my day. And really, that situation is one that any complaint for it would be more valid than this deal with Apple -- the game developer could produce the English version first. The fact of this situation here with Apple is that they need to deal with the international record companies now, but they had to deal with the American record companies first (the music industry starts here, along with a lot of the IP). If you expected a world-wide rollout at launch, we'd probably be waiting another whole year for the service. I'm sure the international service is coming soon enough (at latest within the next few months), so keep quiet -- your complaining isn't going to change anything. It's only going to piss people off.

Another way to look at this is America is the guinea pig. If Apple mucks it up, you don't get the consequences of it.

But really, this whole "Why didn't I get it first? I WANTED IT FIRST!" just seems so childish. If I went and complained on every video game forum for every time a game got released in Japan first, people would get annoyed by me and probably not like me.

[xtal]

Originally posted by Stratus Fear:
I'm sure the international service is coming soon enough (at latest within the next few months), so keep quiet -- your complaining isn't going to change anything. It's only going to piss people off.

I agree with most of what you say, being an 'international' who can't access the service yet. However, the above statement seems a bit contradictory to me.

Contradictory in terms of what this forum is in place for, to discuss. I think the pointless name-calling and bickering has to go from this thread, but there have been some interesting comments worthy of further discussion.

Here's hoping that Apple brings the music service to the "true north strong and free" soon!

[Stratus Fear]

Originally posted by xtal:
I think the pointless name-calling and bickering has to go from this thread, but there have been some interesting comments worthy of further discussion.

This is pretty much along the lines of what I was targeting with my statement, but I was a little too general. It's not just the name-calling, etc. but I think we need to be less irrational and think a little more before we post. Discussion is good, rampant complaining without thinking isn't, IMO.

[mitchell_pgh]

I think they should have at least have let everyone visit the site. Even if they don't let you download music or buy. Perhaps they were nervous that the servers couldn't take the hammering.

I think the international thing would have been tricky. Yes, they had 18 months to work on it, but they had to keep it a secret.

[Esquare]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
I think they should have at least have let everyone visit the site. Even if they don't let you download music or buy. Perhaps they were nervous that the servers couldn't take the hammering.

Uhm... you can do everything from everywhere, except buying the music (for which you need a US billing address).

[Gee4orce]

Personally, I can wait a couple of months (like, until I get broadband at home ) - but what I want to know is this :

Will the UK still only have to pay $.99 per song ?

At the moment, the cheapest you can find a chart album is £9.99UKP - that's nearly $16USD (phew - the UKP-USD exchange rate has shot up !), and that is at a supermarket. A record store such as HMV will charge you about £14UKP - over $22 US dollars !!

Obviously, if Apple can sell music into the UK at $.99 per track, or $9.99 per album (£6UKP), HMV, Virgin and the rest of them might as well pack up shop now.

[nsxpower]

Europe has been left out for a very long time and screwed IMHO:

- We do pay more for hardware. The new 30Gb iPods are 600+ € over here, which is 20% more then they are in the US.

- I used to live in the US, not so long ago ... and it is cheaper for me to fly to New York and back to buy the hardware then going to a local retailer. I actually do that. My girlfried still lives there, so when she comes down to see me in May --- I'll be getting some goodies

- I deleted Sherlock from my system, because it is completely useless over here. I can not access maps, movies, telephone directories etc., which renders it useless.

I think there should be a discount if you live in Europe, because advertised features of the OS and various other products will not work where we live

[Zoro]

Originally posted by nsxpower:
Europe has been left out for a very long time and screwed IMHO:

- We do pay more for hardware. The new 30Gb iPods are 600+ € over here, which is 20% more then they are in the US.

I just paid my new 30GB iPod 600€, but that's with taxes included. I think prices are displayed without taxes on the US store. So, as the VAT in France is 19.6%, you get the difference (well if you don't consider the euro/dollar exchange rate )

On that subject, can someone in the US tell us if the song price of 0.99$ is with taxes included ?

[taldrich]

The argument about American/International has two facets which are correctly pointed out here.

Firstly, the legal complications of worldwide roll-out will surely have held back 'international' distribution.

Secondly, the very terminology "American/International" highlights the mind set of most Americans (even if we overlook the "world's best music store" available only in the USA).

From where I sit (UK) America is international!

Sometimes you can't help feeling that US Companies treat the rest of the world (95% of the population) as an afterthought.

As described above, Sherlock is useless outside USA and I still can't order prints from iPhoto.

[Giano]

I'm sad, but i think that we must face the reality...Apple is a little company in a big world.
Yeah, legal problem...but...when you crete something you don't think about these problems?
Well, i'm not angry about this service (if Apple don't want my money, for me it's the same..), even why the music that i have seen in the itunesstore isn't "my music". I'm angry for Apple "attitude"... We in Europe, don't have ads, don't have store, have a poor customer relationship...we are waiting for Apple Work 6.2.7 localized, are waiting for a fully functional iPhoto, a fully functional Sherlock... the Mac european event are only a "repetition" f the last us' event...
Apple's prices in Italy, are bigger even than the us' price + taxes...why? my imac, come to me from Cork...isn't it in Europe?
My last thought is: is this the right policy?
Apple worlwide market share is falling down, the last number is 2.5%!!!, and in the US the number is 3.? %!!!.....you can say , "yes like bmw (even if bmw got 5%...ndr), but we make money!"....only one problem, if you go belove a minimun "mass" level, you become a "Ferrari" company, and or you can sell your goods at enourmous price to rich people...or you are nothing.
One more point: i agree with someone before: WE ARE NOT INTERNATIONALS PEOPLE!!! WE ARE EUROPEAN!!! FROM MY POINT OF VIEW YOU ARE INTERNATIONALS PEOPLE!!!
I hate nationalism...but sometimes i have thought that perhaps i should install MAndrake Linux, or Suse, on my imac...

[TC]

Originally posted by nsxpower:
My girlfried still lives there, so when she comes down to see me in May --- I'll be getting some goodies

Remember to show her some affection before opening the goodies or you probably won't be getting any more.
Or hopefully when you say goodies you really mean you'll be showing her some affection, aaiiihh. Ali G in da house.

[veryniceguy2002]

Well, my original two points were:

1. When Apple claim to be the world’s most accessible music store, yet it is only available to U.S., the statements are definitely contradictary, and defineitly no where near "world’s most accessible"

2. Why would Apple publicise heavily for the music services on non-US Apple web site (at least Apple Australia had it), yet it is not available (which may be against trade laws in some countries like Australia or EU)

Now I don't think I have a satistactory answer for point 1 yet.
For point two, funny enough I went back to Apple Australia web site a few hours after my original posting, they have removed all references of the Apple music download service (only new iPod on the front page + iTunes 4, but no reference of the download serive on those products, and the Australian equivalent of the "music store" page has completly removed). Perhaps Apple do monitor this forum frequently??

[nsxpower]

Or hopefully when you say goodies you really mean you'll be showing her some affection, aaiiihh. Ali G in da house.

Aiiight, me Julie will get getting more affection then she thinks

----------

Yes, the inability to use iPhoto's online ordering features is an issue too. I ordered prints and a photoalbum, when I was in the US and I was quite pleased with the quality of service and prints themselves. It would be unfair to blame Apple for iPhoto, since its Kodak thats providing the service ...
I've found alternatives that work here in Europe. For 0.20€ I have been quite happy with quality/price, still integration with iPhoto would be very welcome. (This service has an OS X upload software, but the installer is OS 9 ... we all know the story).

[Coxy]

Originally posted by taldrich:
Sometimes you can't help feeling that US Companies treat the rest of the world (95% of the population) as an afterthought.

I think that you mean 45% of the market, not 95% of the population.

[veryniceguy2002]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Possible.

He said that the service required a US billing address, and I believe he related that to CC companies. I'm not sure though - it' s in that stream somewhere.

-s*

But then why you need a US billing address?

It's not like typical online shopping where they have to match the "shipping to" address to "billing to" address, to ensure the goods are sent to the right address...

[Putta]

Originally posted by veryniceguy2002:
But then why you need a US billing address?

It's not like typical online shopping where they have to match the "shipping to" address to "billing to" address, to ensure the goods are sent to the right address...

More to the point - this is why we have credit cards which are internationally accepted.

Still, all i can suggest is that you sign the petition and use the iTunes feedback to swamp them

[JKT]

Originally posted by Coxy:
I think that you mean 45% of the market, not 95% of the population.

Er, very, very roughly speaking the US does only represent about 5% of the world's population (IIRC ~270 million versus ~6 billion) so you are both right.

Edit: that's US billions and not UK billions

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by veryniceguy2002:
But then why you need a US billing address?

It's not like typical online shopping where they have to match the "shipping to" address to "billing to" address, to ensure the goods are sent to the right address...

It's all about licensing rights. And I also think the music industry wants to do a trial run of this in the US only to see if it actually works.

I would not blame Apple for this.

[veryniceguy2002]

Originally posted by Mastrap:
It's all about licensing rights. And I also think the music industry wants to do a trial run of this in the US only to see if it actually works.

I would not blame Apple for this.

Not sure why if any company wants to do a marketing trial they would pick US: it's too big population to do a control trial and they already spend a lot of $$$$$ for marketing (TV ad etc).

I found it quite disappointing that given at least half of Apple's annual revenue are generated from outside US.

You probably be right in terms of about licensing rights...

[veryniceguy2002]

Originally posted by Zoro:
I just paid my new 30GB iPod 600€, but that's with taxes included. I think prices are displayed without taxes on the US store. So, as the VAT in France is 19.6%, you get the difference (well if you don't consider the euro/dollar exchange rate )

On that subject, can someone in the US tell us if the song price of 0.99$ is with taxes included ?

US$0.99 per song does not include sales tax. However, as far as I understand there is a loop hole in US tax laws, where users don't have to pay sales tax for services delivered purely online. Even if sales tax is applicable, it woould only apply to residents in Californa (where Apple is based).

Unlike in EU or Australia, where all price shown must be VAT or GST inclusive, US prices are shown without sales tax (and then you have to add sales tax when you checkout).

[Simon]

Well as an American living in Europe I can understand people here quite well.

And I agree 100% with the guy who said machines in Europe should be cheaper than in the US. That's right. +5% for currency fluctuations, -5% for Sherlock not working, -5% for for the not working iPhoto prints and in a couple of weeks (when the legal and DRM bullshit excuses won't work anymore) another -5% because iTunes lacks the Music Store abilities.

Total: -10%

No really, I understand the Europeans. Apple is selling them the stuff for a higher price with less features, I'd call that screwing customers (and I'm saying this even though I normally really try to defend Apple). And don't give me the VAT bullshit. I live in a country with less VAT than any existing US sales tax. And import tarifs? For machines built in China? Bull.

And btw, what really pisses me off are my fellow Americans here who think they have to calm down the bitching Europeans like caring granddads talk to little children. WTF? Enjoy your MusicStore and shut up guys. Let the europeans bitch. They have every right to.

[nsxpower]

No really, I understand the Europeans. Apple is selling them the stuff for a higher price with less features, I'd call that screwing customers (and I'm saying this even though I normally really try to defend Apple). And don't give me the VAT bullshit. I live in a country with less VAT than any existing US sales tax. And import tarifs? For machines built in China? Bull.

It should also be noted that Apple Service is not nearly (from my experience) as good as it is in the US (from my experience Apple Service can be crappy over there too, but that largely depends if you get a knowledgeble person at the call center).

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Simon:
No really, I understand the Europeans. Apple is selling them the stuff for a higher price with less features, I'd call that screwing customers

They have the same recourse as any other customer of any other product. Think Apple is overpriced? Buy another brand. Sales is the only feedback mechanism that any company listens to.

[Visnaut]

Originally posted by Simon:
And btw, what really pisses me off are my fellow Americans here who think they have to calm down the bitching Europeans like caring granddads talk to little children. WTF? Enjoy your MusicStore and shut up guys. Let the europeans bitch. They have every right to.

I'm not American, nor do I have any special affinity towards their governement. I know your statement doesn't apply to me. As stated before, I'm Canadian, and even we cannot access the iTunes Music Store.

That said, I can also understand why European users are taking this rather harshly, given how much they already have to swallow in terms of higher prices, and minor loss in the functionality of some of Apple's products.

However, when it comes to this self-righteous anger that some have regarding the non-availability of the iTunes Music Store, it really is fruitless and illogical. Why? Instead of me, or others trying to rationalize it, let's hear it straight from Apple's Chris Bell, Product Line Marketing Manager for Music Distribution and Software: "It has to do with the way the record industry is structured and our contracts with the record companies -- we have every intension of expanding the service internationally." (Taken from this article.)

So there you have it! How can anyone dispute that? Sure, people have every right to stand on their soap-boxes and play self-righteous armchair CEOs, but any rational person (yes, even a non-American such as myself) only sees that as foolish.

[Simon]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
They have the same recourse as any other customer of any other product. Think Apple is overpriced? Buy another brand. Sales is the only feedback mechanism that any company listens to.

Yeah right. Take it or leave it. Quite a crappy attitude if we want Apple to enlarge its user base, don't you think?

It's not that easy my friend. Apple makes half it's buck off of foreigners. It's in our interest as American Mac users that Apple treats the foreigners good - at least, they shouldn't treat them like dumbos.

I'm amazed, again a fellow American who thinks he needs to calm people down. You guys just don't get it. You're not in the position to shut the Europeans up. Use the store, and please enjoy it (as I will when I get back to the US), but don't think you have the right to speak for others.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Visnaut:
However, when it comes to this self-righteous anger that some have regarding the non-availability of the iTunes Music Store, it really is fruitless and illogical. Why? Instead of me, or others trying to rationalize it, let's hear it straight from Apple's Chris Bell, Product Line Marketing Manager for Music Distribution and Software: "It has to do with the way the record industry is structured and our contracts with the record companies -- we have every intension of expanding the service internationally." (Taken from this article.)

So there you have it! How can anyone dispute that? Sure, people have every right to stand on their soap-boxes and play self-righteous armchair CEOs, but any rational person (yes, even a non-American such as myself) only sees that as foolish.

Visnaut, I agree 100% with you. And I'd like to repeat that normally I really defend Apple as much as I can. I don't mind paying 129 every year for the next decimal update to OS X, I think 99 for .mac is fine and I think 99cents per song is a bargain.

It's also not that I'm just anxious and think it should have been here for the whole world on day one.

But opening a store for the US only and saying it's the most accessible store on the world is just stupid freaking crap. Sorry. That's the kind of junk that pisses off Europeans to no end and I don't understand Apple does this.

And BTW, I can understand that some people don't trust Apple when they say the store will reach Europe soon. They said that with Sherlock ages ago and they said it with iPhoto prints as well. Saying they'll deliver is easy, actually delivering requires more. Can you blame the Europeans for being sceptical? No. Apple has to live up to it. Stop fooling around.

[Hozie]

I agree with you too, Visnaut, but what Jobs should have done is just come out and say that he was in the process of negotiating the deals for Europe as well. I do believe that it's a difficult issue, tied with the fact that there are licensing issues and all that, but just mentioning 'Oh, and it's US only' pisses people off for no reason really. If he'd said 'Oh, and we're negotiating with the big five right now and expect the service to be available in Europe and Asia in six months' (just to name two areas), half of the people bitching about it here (me included) wouldn't be.


Just my 0.02$

[Putta]

Originally posted by Hozie:
I agree with you too, Visnaut, but what Jobs should have done is just come out and say that he was in the process of negotiating the deals for Europe as well. I do believe that it's a difficult issue, tied with the fact that there are licensing issues and all that, but just mentioning 'Oh, and it's US only' pisses people off for no reason really. If he'd said 'Oh, and we're negotiating with the big five right now and expect the service to be available in Europe and Asia in six months' (just to name two areas), half of the people bitching about it here (me included) wouldn't be.


Just my 0.02$

Yeah - got to come in here again. I too didn't mind the actual paying for .mac (though I think there are ethical issues which should be addressed by all service providers when it comes to supllying free email accounts and then charging for them), I also thought $129 was a bargain for Jaguar (looking forward to paying the same for panther).

The point here is that no-one can answer - or has tried to answer why they claim it to be the world's best when it is only available to 5% portion.

Also, its the lack of information that is getting me irritated. If someone would say we think it will be available on X then it would atleast give you the feeling you were considered.

I know Apple has a policy of not discussing things in advance, but as I have said before its a stupid policy - I wouldn't mind if they got the time wrong either - just an idea would be good.

[Mac Guru]

File this under one of the many other Apple Music Service whining threads...

Oh and one more thing, Online Petitions are 100% BS, there is absolutly no way for the person filing the petition to LEGALLY verify all the signatures which, in order to make a petition an actual fighting force, is pretty much necessary.

Mac Guru