[moki]

I just checked out this preview of an alpha version of the upcoming (2004) version of Microsoft Windows, code-named "Longhorn":

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/longhorn_4015.asp

I'm not trying to bash Microsoft or Windows here, but some of the features included in this upcoming version of Windows are remarkable in terms of how similar they are to Mac OS X.

Sure, this is only an alpha version of MS Windows, and some overlap of features/functionality is inevitable (and cuts both ways), but check out superficial things like the login window:

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/4015_127.png

and the new GDI (read, analogous to Quartz/Quartz Extreme) seems more than a little bit analogous to the approach Apple took years ago with Quartz/Quartz Extreme:

The Microsoft Windows Longhorn desktop is being drawn in a completely different way than all previous versions. Every window will have its own, full window-sized surface to draw to. The desktop will be dynamically composed many times a second from the contents of each window. The goal for desktop composition is to enable compelling new visual effects for both the Windows user interface and for applications created by third-party developers shown on increasingly affordable high-density displays.

Examples of visual effects that will be enabled in Windows Longhorn include:
--Windows tumbling onto the screen.
--Rotating windows.
--Warped windows.
--Alpha blending between windows.
--Threads.
--Events and other synchronization objects.

...and other minor things like "Eventually, we'll be able to scale icons more elegantly." (similar to OS X's ability to have rather huge icons that scale well):

http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/4015_068.png

If anything, it's a pretty cool justification of some of the rather controversial decisions Apple made years ago with OS X (such as the buffered windows implemented in Quartz).

In any event, it is an interesting read.

[::maroma::]

Did you expect anything less from them? It's almost a given, and accepted, that they'll rip off some of the cooler features of the Mac OS. They've done it for years. Like you said, it cuts both ways, but it's clear that MS does the bulk of the theft. But imitation is the finest form of flattery I guess.

[WJMoore]

I wouldn't think of it as copying more that they are playing catch up. 2004 its released is it? Oh how long have we been doing all that window/compositing stuff? Since 10.0 I believe... Minor detail, hopefully Apple will have another new feature by then that they will have to catch up to... Microsoft have been copying Apple *ahem* playing catchup since 3.1.

Wesley

[Sarc]

The Chigago Bulls should sue M$ ... look at the longhorn logo on the clock on the "bookshelf" (as that thing on the right is called)

[Brass]

I sure hope Apple copies MS and allows multiple simultaneous logins in the next major OS release (and I sure hope they dod it better than XP).

Having said that, it's rare that a major feature like this is available in Windows before Mac OS. It's usually the other way around. When it comes to GUI stuff, Windows is always well behind the Mac.

[dettociao]

Definetly an interesting read. Thanks for the link.

[ApeInTheShell]

Does unix allow simultaneous logins?

i'm guessing over a server or if you have a constant connection.

But i was just wondering.

If not than maybe Apple decided it would be best for security reasons. who knows.

[theory]

Yeah unix allow simultaneous logins.

[SupahCoolX]

Meh... still looks like ass.
The problem with Windows is that everything is text based. The taskbar, for example tries to include the full title of each window. However, when you have 4-5 windows open, they all end up getting truncated, making them useless. Compare that to the OSX dock, where you get a nice big icon representing each app. So, no matter how many you have open, you can always tell what each thing is with a quick glance.
Just look at some of those screenshots. The one with the ugly icon resizing, for example: On the "dock" thing on the right side of the screen it says"Quick Launch" and "Launch Internet Explorer." It's just so redundant and a waste of space. Of course, there's not enough horizontal space, so the words get cut off and it looks stupid, too. Why not just put the IE logo there, and save that space? It would also make it look a lot less cluttered.
Well, I'm no expert in the field, but that's my 2 cents.

[Sarah31]

it sounds as about exciting as getting a suppository the size of a full grown sheep with the prickles of a cactus.

that "sidebar" is a hideous pile of junk.

in all that article i did not read one thing that would improve the functionality stability, and security of Windows. it all sound visual and not content driven.

another hohum windows release. perhaps they should call it long in the saddle.

[MindFad]

Still has the fugly text, I see. So same old Windows with more fancy eyecandy? Kinda like OS X. That's still not going to get me to use or feel comfy using Windows. I'll use Windows in school for Maya, until I can snag myself a PPC970 to do my Maya work. *bets he'll be the only Mac dork in school*

It'd be nice if Apple added multiple logins to Panther, and maybe even a text-based Dock. I would mind that (if it woiuld take up less space, not that it bugs me now). Hopefully we'll see plenty of general OS GUI speedups, too. *cough, grumbles about scrolling, cough*

[Mac Guru]

My observations... is it just me or when it says "more elegant icon scaling" are those icons HIGHLY pixelated or is that just me? How is that elegant?

And as for the OS it self, I hope the DO get all those funky window wobble effects, and I hope every time one happens... it grinds thier Pentium 4 to a halt.

Mac Guru

[intastella]

I'm just wondering how much more stuff they can cram into Explorer (the file viewer). I mean come on!

Don

[moki]

I guess the interesting thing to me is that Microsoft implementing (in 2004) the technologies that a number of people bashed the heck out of Apple for adopting. Notably the buffered windowing system and compositing image model in Quartz, and the 3D accelerated GUI in Quartz Extreme.

It is certainly sensible to say that things like this are/were inevitable in the progression of operating systems and technology, but it's interesting to note that Apple was ahead of the curve, despite the naysayers.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by moki:
I guess the interesting thing to me is that Microsoft implementing (in 2004) the technologies that a number of people bashed the heck out of Apple for adopting. Notably the buffered windowing system and compositing image model in Quartz, and the 3D accelerated GUI in Quartz Extreme.

Did anyone bash Apple for Quartz Extreme? I remember some complaining that it wouldn't work on some people's machines, but other than that...

[oVeRmInD911]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Did anyone bash Apple for Quartz Extreme? I remember some complaining that it wouldn't work on some people's machines, but other than that...

I think he meant that they complained about Apple using Quartz, and that Apple was ahead of the curve in using Quartz Extreme.

[moki]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Did anyone bash Apple for Quartz Extreme? I remember some complaining that it wouldn't work on some people's machines, but other than that...

Well, certainly KellyHogan for one.

[JLL]

--Rotating windows.

I always wanted this!

[mindwaves]

Originally posted by moki:
Well, certainly KellyHogan for one.

LOL! I remember those days...

edit: back on topic

Yeah, they are certainly copying OS X an it angers me, but I guess that it is some form of flattery.

[DaedalusDX]

Its amazing how much using Mac OS X for a good year with minimal exposure to Windows XP can do for you...

I guess I really did get absolutely accustomed to the smoothness of everything in Mac OS X... in terms of the responsiveness of the user interface and how the system reacts to demanding loads like video and such... Somewhere in the back of my mind, however, I was under the impression that Windows users had the same smoothness or better (since everyone seemed to agree that window resizing and scrolling was much better on Windows...)

But now I know that I've really taken all of Quartz and especially recently with Quartz Extreme for granted. I tried using a friend's fast Windows XP machine recently, and things seemed really strange to me. When i dragged a window around on the screen, the edges would tear inexplicably... (i was once a windows user, and apparently this used to happen all the time... in Mac OS X, Apple got rid of this effect by synchronizing the refresh of the windows with the video card's refresh rate)... in XP, i was surprised how so often window contents would disappear for an instant (sort of like what happens with Classic windows in OS X) when i interacted with other windows around or over them.

So that's the way things are in Windows XP i suppose, huh... i sort of feel sorry for those poor PC folk that they'll have to wait until 2004/2005 to get decent graphics in Windows... just makes me feel more grateful that Mac OS X is here for us Mac users... we really have it kind of nice.

[mikemako]

i'm really excited about thte new version of Windows- I think it will be really cool. I would rather see Windows copying OS X than for Windows to be the innovative one & do something completely new and different- that would worry me because innovation is a really the strong point for Apple and that's where a lot of Apple users hold their pride... in reality though, as said above, both companies are VERY influenced by each other.

About the icons & scaling: they look bad in the screenshots given, but at this point it's only beta. It will certainly not look like that in gold master... the icons will be very shiny & pretty like OS X's.

[JLL]

Originally posted by mikemako:
It will certainly not look like that in gold master... the icons will be very shiny & pretty like OS X's.

I'm not sure - perhaps some of them.

In XP there are still tons of 4 colour icons.

[sushiism]

ahh not all of them like they managed in osx, after using all versions of windows 3.1 to xp I've noticed ms are really bad at updating icons, most will be left as the old ones

[nelliott]

Its worth noting that this is an extrmely early build of Longhorn, and most of the stuff hasn't even been implemented yet - that is why there are a large number of legacy elements in those screenshots (including the fugly icons).

[Toyin]

I think that both companies copy ideas from each other. Apple just happens to implement most features (except for finder networking) better than Windows.

I can only hope that Longhorn's graphic system is similar to OSX. Then maybe will start seeing graphic cards developed to really accelerate 3rd generation graphic systems.

[chris v]

Originally posted by moki:
Well, certainly KellyHogan for one.

I was just trying to remember his name. He'd simultaneously bash QE while talking about how cool it was going to be in Longhorn.

To quote my daughters, "what EV-rrrrr!"

CV

[sniffer]

Originally posted by moki:
Well, certainly KellyHogan for one.

Also new iBook owners..

[miro7]

Not to rain on anyone's Windows bashfest, but I seem to remember Microsoft having had the whole compositing engine (quartz extreme-esque) in development for at least the past year. Perhaps longer.

IIRC, wasn't this discovery around the time that the pictures surfaced from MS's research group that was putting together some rather nasty full 3D interfaces? I think that they discussed compositing and certainly 3D interfaces (quatrz GL-esque) at that time.

I'm not so sure this is copying Apple as much as it is a logical progression of the industry (i.e. 2D graphics speed hasn't improved in any appreciable amount for a few years while 3D has). It will be interesting to see how the implementations differ, however. Perhaps Paul Thurrott should use Quartz and QE for comparison to GDI++++ in the future.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by moki:
Well, certainly KellyHogan for one.

Well, KellyHogan doesn't count. He complained about everything. Apple could have invented a God OS and he would have bitched about it.

[Kompressor]

Keep in mind that by 2004, Longhorn will be locking horns (no pun intended) with Mac OSX 10.4/10.5 Puma. If I'm not mistaken, Quartz Extreme DOES NOT accelerate 2D rendering and redrawing - it only accelerates 2D compositing. Longhorn, on the other hand with, the support of the major video card companies (ATI, NVIDIA) will probably do BOTH - that is something to be CONCERNED about. However, maybe we'll get 2D acceleration with Panther, who knows ... We'll almost certainly get it in one form or another with Puma.

[Nonsuch]

Wasn't 10.1 Puma?

[Kompressor]

I think you're right about the Puma nomenclature - my bad. Whatever comes after Panther, be it Leoapard, Bobcat, Tigger, Hobbes, Garfield ...


Kompressor

[Calli46]

Apple could have invented a God OS and he would have bitched about it.

So, Kelly was a kind of DEVIL's advocate!

[gunnar]

Does anyone actually work with their computer anymore? That whole side bar thing is insane. And the screen clutter! How can you see all your files, or better yet, use them. OS X definitely upped the ante for wasted space but this Windows Longhorn stuff is worse than CNN Headline news at lunch hour. Every now and then I boot into OS 9 and find myself in awe of the gaping amount of nothingness there. I reminds me of how much time I waste interacting with the computer that I could be using to do other things in my day.

[DaedalusDX]

Originally posted by gunnar:
Does anyone actually work with their computer anymore? That whole side bar thing is insane. And the screen clutter! How can you see all your files, or better yet, use them. OS X definitely upped the ante for wasted space but this Windows Longhorn stuff is worse than CNN Headline news at lunch hour. Every now and then I boot into OS 9 and find myself in awe of the gaping amount of nothingness there. I reminds me of how much time I waste interacting with the computer that I could be using to do other things in my day.

Yes. I definitely agree with that. The whole sidebar idea is awful... Especially with that useless Longhorn clock sitting there doing nothing. It makes the dock feel that much more space friendly.

[Guy Incognito 2]

How fast will Microsoft copy 10.3 features?

What I hate the most is that we live in an "it's good enough" society. Microsoft will produce a poor imitation of OS X features and people will pick Windows over OS X because "it's good enough" for them.

It's a sad, sad world.

[techweenie1]

Looks pretty fugly to me...

[TAZ]

M$ can steal all the GUI features and such from Apple, just as they have done in the past, but in the end is is still Microsoft crap that will crash and freeze and die repeatedly. Even if OSX looked butt ugly, Id be using it cause its stable and wont cause me headaches.

[moki]

Originally posted by miro7:
I'm not so sure this is copying Apple as much as it is a logical progression of the industry (i.e. 2D graphics speed hasn't improved in any appreciable amount for a few years while 3D has). It will be interesting to see how the implementations differ, however. Perhaps Paul Thurrott should use Quartz and QE for comparison to GDI++++ in the future.

Agreed -- my point wasn't really so much Microsoft copying anything, just noting where Apple was (is) on the curve: ahead of it.

I found it more of an interesting validation of the Quartz and QE imaging models (among other things) that Apple took a lot of heat for 2+ years ago.

[miro7]

I found it more of an interesting validation of the Quartz and QE imaging models (among other things) that Apple took a lot of heat for 2+ years ago.

True enough, but then again, everyone but Kelly Hogan knew that

Apple certainly has the distinct advantage of polishing QE at this point--knowing that the implementation is solid. If Apple had waited for all of their hardware lineup to catch up--we'd be reading about Apple playign the me-too game with MS.

No one wants that.

[intastella]

What I'm wondering is if 2D rendering + compositing can be done with current cards. Can Apple pull it off before MS does?

Don

[Jim Paradise]

Same ugly fonts that Windows has always used.....

But "ooooo..... it has a pretty useless clock that takes up a ton of space!"

*fffft*

[Appleman]

Originally posted by moki:
Well, certainly KellyHogan for one.

Those were the days

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by intastella:
What I'm wondering is if 2D rendering + compositing can be done with current cards. Can Apple pull it off before MS does?

Don

You haven't been reading this thread very well, have you?

[JCS]

my point wasn't really so much Microsoft copying anything, just noting where Apple was (is) on the curve: ahead of it.

...but what is also typical of Apple is letting that lead slip away. As other posters have pointed out, it's possible that MS will end up with much better video card driver/hardware support than Apple currently enjoys. If MS can offload most or all of Windows' drawing work to the video card, while Apple continues to only offload compositing (and blitting, I guess), then Apple has effectively lost its lead, IMO...despite the fact that Apple's drawing APIs may continue to be cleaner and higher-level than what Windows offers.

IOW, Apple had better be working hard on getting more of Quartz onto the video card, or MS will eat their lunch

[Sven G]

Originally posted by Appleman:
Those were the days

... Which, BTW, made me remember Those Were The Days by the Leningrad Cowboys.

More seriously, many have strongly criticized the "new" desktop sidebar in Longhorn: personally, I don't think the idea is so bad - after all, it's essentially a system-wide extension of the internal sidebar found in many browsers such as Mozilla, Konqueror, etc., - but it should rather be an enhancement of the taskbar, and not something separated, IMO. In a few words, the taskbar and the system-wide sidebar should be combinated into a single entity, for maximum efficiency.

Anyway, it's obvious that the various operating systems and/or desktop environments tend to borrow ideas from one another: this is only a healthy thing, as it stimulates new ideas and better implementations of current concepts...

[dfiler]

Originally posted by Sven G:
...many have strongly criticized the "new" desktop sidebar in Longhorn: personally, I don't think the idea is so bad - after all, it's essentially a system-wide extension of the internal sidebar found in many browsers such as Mozilla, Konqueror, etc., - but it should rather be an enhancement of the taskbar, and not something separated, IMO. In a few words, the taskbar and the system-wide sidebar should be combinated into a single entity, for maximum efficiency.

Definately an interesting trend...

System-level, persistent controls are a necessity in modern operating systems. In the very least, operating systems must provide application switching functionality.

There are plenty of other things at the system level that could use a permanent home on the screen, although these differ somewhat between users. (Window switching, hardware status, hardware and bandwidth diagnostics/feedback, sound and video output settings, time/date, and user-defined shortcuts to files and application functionality.)

Apple took the lead early on with the persistent and globally accessibly apple menu. The MS taskbar provides even more functionality with the inclusion of various interface elements into a slightly larger region of the screen. With OS X, apple once again increased the amount of screen-estate devoted to persistent controls. However, with a hide-able dock, they backtracked a bit, relying on the menu bar for OS level feedback.

Apparently, MS has observed growing screen sizes and is looking for a way of devoting more pixels to persistent controls. Overall, I’m not sure if these controls take up a larger percentage of screen space then the taskbar did when it was first introduced. Remember, our screens were much smaller 8 years ago.

Yet, it seems as if MS is making poor decisions as to what info and functionality should be persistently displayed. Konfabulator has proven quite educational while pondering this concept. Disregarding speed issues, it is an excellent test bed for new screen organization and widgets. I think that most people eventually find Konfabulator to be merely fun. Almost none of the widgets are of great enough universal utility to really justify a new OS GUI metaphor like MS has demo’d in longhorn.

Rumor has it that Apple is hard at work on greatly expanded dock functionality. They are tackling important issues such as how to visually group windows from each application. Also, what kind of functionality can be added to the Dock without sacrificing space or imposing visual/cognitive clutter on users? Icon design guidelines bouncing icons, and badges barely scratch the surface of the dock's potential. The Dock 2.0, QE, and the 970 will likely overshadow everything we've seen from longhorn!

[intastella]

"You haven't been reading this thread very well, have you?"

Should I get out my decoder ring? Because I don't see anything in this thread that addresses the hardware aspect. Like if you can move 2D rendering onto the graphics card, what kind of power are we talking here? Geforce 2MX like for QE or more like a Geforce 3/4 card?

[theolein]

I have just finally "switched" back to the Mac after 7 months of WinXP(I still use WinXP at work though). I bought a "slow" 667MHz TiPB and I'm as happy as a new born baby. The main reason why I am so happy to use a Mac again with OSX is because of the integration in the design concept of the Mac with OSX. If any of you have a PC laptop with a ridiculous 1600x1200 resolution, you'll know what I'm talking about: The screen is very difficult to read, even with large fonts. WindowsXP has improved many things but the Microsoft Tasks based UI navigation concept in XP is not better than the normal Windows views. There is no organisation in the UI.

This, judging from the screenshots of Longhorn, will not change.

But, it will be popular, just as WindowsXP is popular. It will take away some of the advantages that Apple has had in the form of Quartz, and Windows fans will use it to brag with, claiming that Windows is now as good looking and as easy to use as the Mac.

As usually happens, it will be a test of Apple's flexibility in innovation to come up with new ideas that keep OSX ahead. Looking at the iTunes store and products like the iPod, I think Apple is up to the task.

[cowerd]

Read here as world famous win-apologist Paul Thurrott describes

The demonstration I received was performed on a Longhorn build 4015 desktop. When moved across the screen, windows would visually "shutter" across the screen, bending under the speed of the movement, like a flag billowing in a breeze. Windows could have various translucency levels, but in a much more fine-grained and visually stunning way than previous Windows versions. And best of all, windows could be visually scaled up and down with no loss in quality as they were resized, an effect that is impossible on today's Windows desktop. I was told that none of these effects were designed for the final Longhorn product, but that Microsoft was simply testing them for now. One way in which the scaling feature might be used, however, is for window minimization: Instead of a standard taskbar button to represent a minimized window, Longhorn will probably display a miniature version of the window so you can visually differentiate between the various minimized windows and more easily pick the one you want. The "shutter" feature will likely evolve into a minimize effect as well, I was told.

Longhorn, er, Mac OS X.