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LightWaver-67 · May 12, 2003, 02:30 PM

Okay... at what point should I convey my concern(s) to Apple...?

It seems that I am having lots of USB problems with every update. I have 4 7-port hubs (powered) and roughly a total of 13 USB devices connected (Printer, Scanner, camera port, Palm Cradle, Telex adaptor, USB-to-serial, Contour Shuttle-Pro, Keyboard, Mouse, Wacom tablet 9x12, additional tablet 6x9, media card reader, Edirol audio I/O box).

I have used ALL of these peripherals since the "Beta" of OSX, so it's nothing new... but now, I get intermitant failure of things... hubs become unresponsive, keyboard & mouse power-down until I hot-plug them again, Wacom tablet powers-down, the mouse stutters & skips... things that were not always there.

Now... I know that this issue is annoying for ME... but I never know when it's Apple's issue... or if it's something else that's mucking-up my computer. I turned-off things like Suitcase, Meteorologist, DragThing, etc... and it still exhibited the problems... so, do I bug Apple with feedback...?

This is getting REALLY annoying to have to power-down all my hubs, then power them back-up and/or hot-swap peripherals to other ports just to activate them again.

Are other people having these USB issues...?

headbirth · May 12, 2003, 02:37 PM

I'm really sketical whether large software companies really bother to read feedback.

I'm feeling your pain and frustration though....seems like Jaguar just gets worse and worse with every update.....the Finder just TOTALLY sucks!

I'm just praying 10.3 is bug free and maybe even sheds some of the OS9 and classic ties...definetly time to start phasing out OS9 and even carbon.

Bitching and complaining maybe your only source of relief for now...

CharlesS · May 12, 2003, 02:55 PM

I'm not getting these issues, and I think most people aren't, so you may have a messed up installation of OS X. Have you considered reinstalling?

typoon · May 12, 2003, 03:37 PM

If you've never re-installed I would suggest that. Then the next thing is to run something like Diskwarrior and or Drive 10 to see if it will solve your problems. Avoid Norton...

Cipher13 · May 12, 2003, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by CharlesS:
I'm not getting these issues, and I think most people aren't, so you may have a messed up installation of OS X. Have you considered reinstalling?

Well, most people don't have four seven-port hubs.

LightWave: sorry, but the way I see it, 13 USB devices strewn across four different USB hubs is just asking for trouble - especially you don't even have a dedicated USB channel per hub.

I'm surprised it ever worked. USB is shockingly terrible in every way, just about, and I'd urge you to try and find an alternative... not what you wanted to hear, I know.

Hozie · May 12, 2003, 05:25 PM

FYI: it's a known issue in 10.2.5 and Apple fixed it (or so they say

) in 10.2.6. If I were you, I'd give it a spin and report back here if that doesn't work...

smeger · May 12, 2003, 05:58 PM

This is probably a silly question, but you are using self-powered hubs, right? If not, that could be your problem. You'd be drawing substantially more current then your mac's ports are designed to supply.

SSharon · May 12, 2003, 06:08 PM

he said they are powered, and even still I thought USB could handle 127 devices power and bandwith permitting of course. so powered hubs take care of half of that and most of those devices (correct me if I'm wrong) aren't being used at the same time (well at least not the high bandwith ones keyboard and mouse don't count much), so there shouldn't be problems. what kind of machine are you using? are all the hubs connected to each other and to the 2 ports the mac came with or did you consider adding a 5 port usb pci card, that should help.

kennethmac2000 · May 12, 2003, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by LightWaver-67:
Are other people having these USB issues...?

I'm having exactly these problems, but only since 10.2.6.

To Cipher13: USB is supposed to support 127 devices on one bus, so whether or not most people have four 7-port hubs is irrelevant. They should work. The fact that they don't is nothing but shockingly bad QA on Apple's part.

LightWaver-67 · May 12, 2003, 10:11 PM

To answer multiple people:

I am using 10.2.6... I tend to be one of those "Update-the-moment-it's-available" type of people (for better or worse). So, yes.. I'm up-to-date with the latest public build.

The reason the hubs are on one port is because my Palm cradle REFUSES to work if plugged-into a hub, so it gets 1 of my only two USB ports on the computer...

Each hub really only has 6-ports because the next hub plugs into the previous one... plus I actually have MORE than 13... One is the LightWave Key (dongle) and there's another one I'm not sure where it connects to (too lazy to trace the cord) but I really do use (almost) ALL of these peripherals on a weekly if not a daily basis.

I have done a clean install when it was 10.2.5 and the problem persisted... so my 'guess' is that it must have to do with Apple's implementation of USB or something to that nature, because I have not changed a THING... yet it gets a wee-bit worse with each release.

Oh well... I guess I'll just send them the feedback and hope for the best... thanks for all your help & input.

SMacTech · May 13, 2003, 09:57 AM

I am assuming all of your hubs are of the same manufacturer. Have you tried rearranging the order of the hubs? Possibly one of them is becoming defective or the one connected to the computer is having a problem or doesn't like the new implementation of usb drivers instituted by Apple.

Angus_D · May 13, 2003, 10:35 AM

Try with different combinations of things, start small and build up and see if you can narrow down the issue to something broken.

wadesworld · May 13, 2003, 04:25 PM

To Cipher13: USB is supposed to support 127 devices on one bus, so whether or not most people have four 7-port hubs is irrelevant. They should work. The fact that they don't is nothing but shockingly bad QA on Apple's part.

Kenneth,

So if you plug in 120 devices and they all work, and you plug in the 121st and it doesn't, that's bad QA on Apple's part?

Lightwaver has 13 USB devices on 4 hubs. That's 13 USB implementations talking to perhaps 13 drivers, with 4 hub implementations.

What are the chances that every single one of those devices and drivers got everything correct?

Realistically, Apple probably deserves some of the blame. But everytime someone plugs in a USB device and it has problems, you can't say, "Ah, poor Apple QA".

More importantly, just because the USB spec says it supports something, doesn't mean you should do it.

Cisco routers support running multiple OSPF processes, BGP, RIPv1, RIPv2, EIGRP, IS-IS, DECNet Phase IV, and AppleTalk all at the same time. Does that mean you should do it? Absolutely not and you'll just get what you deserve if you try. If you call Cisco and complain that things are unstable when running all those protocols, they'll tell you to split the protocols across multiple routers or do something to decrease the complexity of the network.

I think the most prudent step for Lightwaver would be to buy a PCI USB card to get more USB channels. Then, plug fewer devices into each channel. Make sure to buy it from somewhere with a good return policy, and if it doesn't improve things, return it.

Wade

calumr · May 13, 2003, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by kennethmac2000:
...shockingly bad QA on Apple's part.

What would you call it if Apple did no QA at all? I'm all for adding a few adjectives here and there to brighten up my writing, but I tend to reserve phrases like "shockingly bad" for situations where it could not be any worse.

If anything, Apple's QA could be described as shockingly good (although there are occasions where it isn't). The good QA is why most stuff "just works" on my Mac.

LightWaver-67 · May 13, 2003, 11:58 PM

Originally posted by wadesworld:
Kenneth,

So if you plug in 120 devices and they all work, and you plug in the 121st and it doesn't, that's bad QA on Apple's part?

Lightwaver has 13 USB devices on 4 hubs. That's 13 USB implementations talking to perhaps 13 drivers, with 4 hub implementations.

What are the chances that every single one of those devices and drivers got everything correct?

Realistically, Apple probably deserves some of the blame. But everytime someone plugs in a USB device and it has problems, you can't say, "Ah, poor Apple QA".

More importantly, just because the USB spec says it supports something, doesn't mean you should do it.

Cisco routers support running multiple OSPF processes, BGP, RIPv1, RIPv2, EIGRP, IS-IS, DECNet Phase IV, and AppleTalk all at the same time. Does that mean you should do it? Absolutely not and you'll just get what you deserve if you try. If you call Cisco and complain that things are unstable when running all those protocols, they'll tell you to split the protocols across multiple routers or do something to decrease the complexity of the network.

I think the most prudent step for Lightwaver would be to buy a PCI USB card to get more USB channels. Then, plug fewer devices into each channel. Make sure to buy it from somewhere with a good return policy, and if it doesn't improve things, return it.

Wade

I'm not saying you're wrong... by ANY means...

...but my whole point is, that I've had all the same 13-15 USB devices plugged-in to my G4 since BEFORE moving to OSX... and they all worked FINE in the OSX Beta, the initial release, 10.1 (all variations) and all 10.2 up until 10.2.5

There was NO PROBLEM whatsoever for SOOOOO LONG... it was when I updated to 10.2.5 that I first noticed the problem and it has lingered into 10.2.6 as well... SO... that would indicate to me, that the only changing variable is the OS-Update and it's implementation (changes-to) USB drivers and/or support.

This is why I asked the initial question. I mean, it seems to me, that it was all working fine for so long (2-years? Has OSX been out that long?) and I've had no USB issues with the SAME SETUP... yet the two most recent builds show the problem... even after a "clean install" of the system. My guess is that it IS Apple's issue.

Moot-point anyhow... I already sent them the feedback.

juanvaldes · May 14, 2003, 12:02 AM

Your not the only one.

sniffer · May 14, 2003, 01:00 AM

Hmm.. And everything works if you boot back now into os 9? Than you'll know it's the OS. If it's still there, then it might be something broken. I had a faulty mouse cord ones, and it took me weeks to track down the error. It was easy to suspect the OS...

LightWaver-67 · May 14, 2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by juanvaldes:
Your not the only one.

Misery definitely loves company.

suthercd · May 14, 2003, 11:37 AM

There has been discussion on other boards about this, and the hub's manufacturer has surfaced as a common problem. Not all hubs are the same. That may provide some direction for you.

If you have hubs made at different times or by different manufacturers, try using one hub, add devices one at a time. Repeat with the other hubs. With that many devices, one device could have some compatiblity problems. So after the first set of tests, test each device with the others on one hub, iterate through the possible combinations. If all is OK, add a second hub and repeat---etc.

HTH

Craig