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kymikai · May 26, 2003, 08:09 PM

Hi,
I am just curious after reading a Think Secret report about Panther's Safari not compatible with 10.2? Can someone explain why this maybe the case?
Thanks,

lookmark · May 26, 2003, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by kymikai:
I am just curious after reading a Think Secret report about Panther's Safari not compatible with 10.2? Can someone explain why this maybe the case?

Sure is an odd prediction, if it's true.

Apple is currently advertising Safari prominently in their page on OS X, which features Jaguar. http://www.apple.com/macosx Not to mention the million or two people currently using the Safari PB happily in Jaguar, being locked out for no discernible reason...

Or perhaps this just means that a different version of Safari for 10.3 will have some additional features tied to the new OS...

Guess we'll know more come June 23rd.

Guy Incognito 2 · May 26, 2003, 09:05 PM

Apple wouldn't/couldn't do that. It would be regarded as offensive...at least to me.

No warnings. Making us beta test for a product that we'd have to pay for.

We know Safari works under 10.2...Apple making it break under 10.2 after Safari hits 1.0 would make a lot of people angry.

If Apple is relying on Safari to make people move to 10.3 then I'll have to start wondering just what kind of shitty unwanted features they've got in store for us.

If 10.3 is really going to be as good as Apple says it will, then I don't think they need Safari to help market it.

jasong · May 26, 2003, 09:34 PM

Guy, haven't you realized that Apple's sole reason to exist is to piss you off? By saying that, you've just guaranteed that it will happen . . .

-- Jason

moonmonkey · May 26, 2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by Guy Incognito 2:
No warnings. Making us beta test for a product that we'd have to pay for.

iTools Webmail anyone?

OwlBoy · May 26, 2003, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by moonmonkey:
iTools Webmail anyone?

Yeah, that one did piss off a lot of people...

-Owl

MadBrowser · May 26, 2003, 10:48 PM

My bet is that the build of Safari in Panther won't work under Jaguar because WebCore and WebKit will be part of the OS and not a framework embedded in the application.

I'm confident they will continue to support new versions of Safari on Jaguar. Look at iTunes being supported on 10.1.

Dale Sorel · May 26, 2003, 10:49 PM

Come on folks, there will be two versions of Safari GM. One for folks that stay with Jaguar, and another for those upgrade to Panther.

I'm only hoping that the one for Panther has more bells and whistles

libraryguy · May 27, 2003, 12:41 AM

Making us beta test for a product that we'd have to pay for.[/B]

Hmmm...just like they did with iTools webmail.

Graymalkin · May 27, 2003, 01:57 AM

Ok, I'll try to go slow. In the Safari.app package there are four framework files, WebCore, JavaScriptCore, WebKit, and WebFoundation. Safari has to ship with these frameworks because they've not yet become system level frameworks. When the real deal 1.0 Safari is released with Panther these frameworks are going to be system level frameworks (stored in /System/Library/Frameworks) and available to all programs. Ergo Safari will no longer ship with these frameworks included. Since Safari won't be shipping with the frameworks it needs to run and Jaguar won't have them installed the Panther release of Safari isn't going to work on Jaguar.

That of course does not mean there won't be a Jaguar compatible release of Safari available. Apple can either package the finalized version of Safari with the frameworks it needs or add the Web frameworks to Jaguar's system as part of an update. Whether Apple will release a Jag compatible Safari release remains to be seen, they could use Safari, a new/better version of iTunes, and an enhanced Sherlock as a way to leverage people into upgrading to Panther.

If you're shocked and appalled at this fact you need save your ranting. Safari is beta software and will expire. The older releases like v52 expire on June 30th. From the looks of things the v74 release of Safari expires on September 3rd.

I think intelligence will prevail in the end and there WILL be a Jaguar release of Safari, at least through the 1.x branch. A lot of Apple's software still runs on 10.1 even though it would be fairly easy for Apple to mandate all their software run on the latest and greatest of their OSes.

Since EBCDIC · May 27, 2003, 02:06 AM

Why should we assume that the version of Safari which is released with Pather would work with Jaguar? Just because you want it so?

If Panther's Safari, perhaps 1.0, doesn't actually work with Jaguar I - as a programmer - will assume that it's because of some incompatibility with libraries or system services (available in Pather, not in Jaguar), rather than some evil scheme concocted in Cupertino.

Until proven otherwise, that is.

DeathMan · May 27, 2003, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by libraryguy:
Hmmm...just like they did with iTools webmail.

Score: -1 Redundant

wulf · May 27, 2003, 12:24 PM

FWIW, the ThinkSecret article seems to suggest that there will be a Safari 1.0 release ahead of Panther. In other words Safari 1.0 will work in Jaguar:

Sources familiar with build 78 say that when its disk image is mounted, it is entitled "Safari 1.0," suggesting that the current flow of development will indeed lead to the GM, and not another major beta release.

...

Apple is working to fix known Safari bugs, both for the next public release and for the later release that will be included with Panther.

JLL · May 27, 2003, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by wulf:
FWIW, the ThinkSecret article seems to suggest that there will be a Safari 1.0 release ahead of Panther. In other words Safari 1.0 will work in Jaguar:

If you read Hyatt's weblog he basically says "I'm done! What should I do next?"

OptimusG4 · May 27, 2003, 01:39 PM

There could be 2 versions, just like MS had 2 versions of IE 6; one for Win2000 and below, and a special one for XP that was bundled. So it's not unlikely that Apple will do the same, depending on the framworks in Panther.

kymikai · May 28, 2003, 01:55 AM

is there any possibility that the one for Panther is a 64bit version that utilize 970?

moonmonkey · May 28, 2003, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by kymikai:
is there any possibility that the one for Panther is a 64bit version that utilize 970?

No, Panther would see no benifit by being 64 bit ready, unless we realy wanted our little browser accessing over 4 gig of memory.

moonmonkey · May 28, 2003, 02:19 AM

Originally posted by OwlBoy:
Yeah, that one did piss off a lot of people...

-Owl

They did give us the product half price though.

Still a bit cheeky.

Eug · May 28, 2003, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by MadBrowser:
My bet is that the build of Safari in Panther won't work under Jaguar because WebCore and WebKit will be part of the OS and not a framework embedded in the application.

I'm confident they will continue to support new versions of Safari on Jaguar. Look at iTunes being supported on 10.1.

Wasn't Microsoft's legal rap on the knuckles for something like this? And how come people aren't up in arms about Apple copying this idea from Windows.

JLL · May 28, 2003, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by Eug:
Wasn't Microsoft's legal rap on the knuckles for something like this? And how come people aren't up in arms about Apple copying this idea from Windows.

Having WebCore as a framework is very different from the way IE is integrated with Windows.

Mac Guru · May 28, 2003, 09:38 AM

It's VERY easy, all they need to do is either provide a download that installs 4 new frameworks into Jag, or make Safari look for the frameworks in the system, and if they don't exist, then it uses the ones built into it's pkg.

Either way, I don't think there will be two 1.0 versions of Safari, they'll just do something to keep it on 10.2 and 10.3 until they feel there's a need to make it 10.3 only.

Mac Guru

BuonRotto · May 28, 2003, 12:43 PM

Panther will probably unlock some features in Safari that Jaguar can't, sort of like how the iTunes 3 DB was suddenly available to the other iLife apps, and how some minor aspects of shared playlists were built into it but not accessible.

BuonRotto · May 28, 2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Eug:
Wasn't Microsoft's legal rap on the knuckles for something like this? And how come people aren't up in arms about Apple copying this idea from Windows.

Well, MS tried to pass off the idea that frameworks and the IE application were tied at the hip, that if you deleted the application, you deleted the framework that much of the system ran on. This was what Avie talked about when he was on the stand in the antitrust trial. You can delete Safari and use another application without crippling the system. I'm sure Panther will be the same way.

tikki · May 28, 2003, 01:11 PM

It will work in Jaguar. What is stopping Apple from just releasing the frameworks with the next .update with Jaguar? (ie. 10.2.7 includes Webcore, etc).

Stop making a big deal out of something that is months off.

JLL · May 28, 2003, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by Mac Guru:
Either way, I don't think there will be two 1.0 versions of Safari

Neither do I. I think that 1.0 will be released VERY soon and that 1.5 (or whatever) will be included in Panther (and it will for some reason only work in Panther).

Superchicken · May 28, 2003, 02:14 PM

Wouldn't be surprised if Safari wasn't updated for X.2, mail.app was never updated for X.1

dfiler · May 28, 2003, 02:17 PM

Even assuming that the rumor is true... it is one more speculative leap to assume that the problem is related to frameworks.

But feel free to use this opportunity for soap-boxing about Apple's hat color